Sell me on Mess

[ScottM]

 

I know that there are many people who have Mess ranked in the 3-5 range among centers, and he's in the top 10 for nearly everyone, but I just don't see it, personally. Was he a great player? Absolutely. A Hall of Famer? No doubt? But a top 10 center? I'm not sold. When I say that, I know I'm probably in a very small minority, which makes me wonder: what is it that I'm missing? Would anyone care to explain what ranks Mess so highly?

 

This is inspired by my attempts to put together a top 10 centers list, and Mess is just hanging there. My gut says no to him, but how can so many people all be wrong?

[Bertmega]

This alone should do it for you:

 

[yave1964]

Spent much of his career in Wayne's shadow. No shame there, anyone would have been a number two to Gretzky in his prime.

 

Case for:

He won six cups. Four with Gretzky and then after wayne went to the Kings he won another with the Oilers and then his famous cup win with the Rangers in 1994.

 

Second all time in points. That is massive.

 

8th all time in goals, 3rd all time in assists.

 

15 All Star teams. That means his contemporaries consistently thought he was one of the best of the best.

 

4 time first team All Star team

 

2 Hart trophies as league MVP, came in second once as well.

 

30th all time in points per game

 

2nd all time in games played

 

Case against:

 

He hung around a bit too long, tarnishing his reputation

 

By doing so, he is considered a bit of a compiler by some.

 

To me he is a rock solid lock as a top ten center, his reputation as a fierce warrior who gave no quarter and contested every inch of the ice was well deserved. He won with Wayne, he won without Wayne. He won with the Oilers, he won without the Oilers. To me six cups and second all time in total points scored says all that I need to hear or see. Absolute top ten or even much higher. In his prime if he had been a number one center on a good team instead of a number two behind the greatest who ever played his numbers would have been even better.

[yave1964]

@Bertmega

 

Wrong! I need to go wash my eyes out with soap!

[ScottM]

@Bertmega You may have just knocked him out of my top 50. Lol

 

Seriously though, it's an honest question. I promise I'm not trolling. 

[ScottM]

 

To me he is a rock solid lock as a top ten center, his reputation as a fierce warrior who gave no quarter and contested every inch of the ice was well deserved. He won with Wayne, he won without Wayne. He won with the Oilers, he won without the Oilers. To me six cups and second all time in total points scored says all that I need to hear or see. Absolute top ten or even much higher. In his prime if he had been a number one center on a good team instead of a number two behind the greatest who ever played his numbers would have been even better.

 

I agree with everything you said. It's not exactly Mess's career that I have an "issue" with. It's more a matter that there are quite a few centers that I see ahead of him.

 

Gretzky and Lemieux, no brainers. But what about Beliveau, Clarke,  Esposito, Francis, Lach, Mikita, Morenz, Sakic, Stastny, Trottier, et. al.? There are some guys very worthy to be considered along with him that I think are in his ballpark at the very least.

 

Edit: I failed to add that if Hart Trophies are a consideration, I think he should actually only have one. He had a great year in 1990, but Bourque should have won the Hart.

[ruxpin]

I agree with everything you said. It's not exactly Mess's career that I have an "issue" with. It's more a matter that there are quite a few centers that I see ahead of him.

 

Gretzky and Lemieux, no brainers. But what about Beliveau, Clarke,  Esposito, Francis, Lach, Mikita, Morenz, Sakic, Stastny, Trottier, et. al.? There are some guys very worthy to be considered along with him that I think are in his ballpark at the very least.

 

Edit: I failed to add that if Hart Trophies are a consideration, I think he should actually only have one. He had a great year in 1990, but Bourque should have won the Hart.

 

Honestly, for me, he's not just top 10 center.  He's top 10 player.  For everything that yave wrote that I won't annoy you with reposting.  He doesn't make my top 5, though.  

 

For me, he's behind only Gretzky and Lemieux for centers.  For me, he's ahead of everyone else on the list above. (I'll take crap on this board about Clarke, but there's several on your list ahead of Clarke, actually).  And--for me--he laps a couple.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I hated the guy's guts. MAN was he ever dirty. Butt ends. Elbows, you name it.

 

But he played with an intensity you don't often see today and you could tell people were terrified of him on the ice. If he was going in after the puck, defensemen would just cough the puck in any direction without looking and skate away to get out of his way. If not, he would plaster you.

 

Messier was an alpha male or alpha males. Every time I think of him, I think of Mirco Crocop's UFA debut against a jobber. Crocop was a vicious headkick knockout artist finally signed by the UFC. His kicks were vicious blows that normally get described in a eulogy.

 

They wanted him to fight the champ, but the champ had another fight already, so they threw him a tune up fight. This poor kid Sanchez. I can't remember ever seeing a guy look so nervous in a sport where you are paid to stand and fight. Crocop just slowly stalked towards him as the kid tried to back away panicking and every hit was OUCH.

 

 

That is what I remember most about Messier when I was a kid. Guys would just do the "OH GOD", cross their fingers and throw the puck to jump out of his way a few times a game. He turned pro jocks into pussycats.

[jammer2]

@ScottM  Center is such a tough spot to dominate at....you have the Gretzky's....Lemieux's so nobody ever moves into the top 2...but the landscape is littered with legit stars that come right after them...the Trottiers, the Beliveaus, Marcel Dionne NEVER gets mentioned enough...his skill level was immense and long before the Triple Crown line, he single handely made LA respectable. Mikita, Clarke....they were and are all in the mix....

 

 This much sticks out for me. He was the best skater out of all the guys mentioned. He was a mans man. Needed no one else to fight his battles, he relished the thought of initiating contact...of hurting people. There is no other center who combined skill and a furious sense of animalistic meanness like Mess had. He could outskate anyone on the other team, take it to the net harder than anyone else on the opposing team...in short, he could impose his wlll like no other center could....his own special set of skill and mean streak. People that like old time hockey are naturally drawn to his unique skill set...I have the UTMOST respect for the guy....yet always hated him...lol. He made the guarantee, cause he is the Mess....he *knew* he could back it up!! OV made the guarantee also...and he is golfing....lol.

[DaGreatGazoo]

This alone should do it for you:

 

This place never fails to impress me. This is Awesome.

[JagerMeister]

I agree with everything you said. It's not exactly Mess's career that I have an "issue" with. It's more a matter that there are quite a few centers that I see ahead of him.

 

Gretzky and Lemieux, no brainers. But what about Beliveau, Clarke,  Esposito, Francis, Lach, Mikita, Morenz, Sakic, Stastny, Trottier, et. al.? There are some guys very worthy to be considered along with him that I think are in his ballpark at the very least.

 

Edit: I failed to add that if Hart Trophies are a consideration, I think he should actually only have one. He had a great year in 1990, but Bourque should have won the Hart.

One is really out of place....can you guess who it is?\

 

I would no doubt put Beliveau, Esposito and Morenz over him

Maybe Mikita, Clarke and Sakic.

[jammer2]

@JagerMeister  HA...first time anyone has even mentioned the great Joe Sakic in this thread...then I realized Stevie Y has been left out also....so many great centers, it's so hard to list them, so many offered such differing skill sets and different eras don't help either.

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister  HA...first time anyone has even mentioned the great Joe Sakic in this thread...then I realized Stevie Y has been left out also....so many great centers, it's so hard to list them, so many offered such differing skill sets and different eras don't help either.

I think Joe sakic was just slightly better than Yzerman. anyways, i think the best way to compare players is how they did against their peers, because its too difficult to compare raw stats because of how the era's scoring constantly change. I mean, how can you compare raw stats from the high scoring 80s, when 15 players were hitting the 100 point mark, to the players of now, when the top players are 15 points away from the 100 point mark... thats why i think its better to just see where they were ranked offensively during the years.

[jammer2]

@JagerMeister  I've never ever been able to decide who was better than Sakic or Yzerman....both were awesome players, both had great supporting casts, both have intangibles off the charts, both classy human beings off the ice....I've never been able to pull the trigger on one over the other....it is that close.

[Claude Monet]

I was waiting for Stevie Y to be mentioned. His transition from scorer to leader is epic.

[yave1964]

I always prefer to list statistical evidence whenever possible to present a case, this has nothing to do with numbers, BUT:

 

I always thought that I was watching Gordie Howe reincarnate whenever I saw Messier kill somebody. The ultimate Warrior.

 

 Does anyone remember that he won two Lady Bing trophies? It just never seemed right to me, and somehow I feel it never felt right to him either.

[Bertmega]

@ScottM

 

"Seriously though, it's an honest question. I promise I'm not trolling."

 

I know you're not, I really like the stuff you post as it really sparks up the conversation around here during the slow times. 

 

I was never a huge fan of Mark Messier, so I have a tough time contributing anything worthwhile about him. 

[ScottM]

@JagerMeister  HA...first time anyone has even mentioned the great Joe Sakic in this thread...then I realized Stevie Y has been left out also....so many great centers, it's so hard to list them, so many offered such differing skill sets and different eras don't help either.

 

You mentioned Dionne last night as well, who I also left out of that list. That's what happens when I'm going off the top of my head and I get interrupted while posting. Lol

[JR Ewing]

I'll use my adapted Keltner List for this thread.

 

1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

Messier’s career overlapped players like Gretzky and Lemieux. No

2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

Yes. Messier was named as the top LW two times before his move to centre in 1984, and then top centre in 1990 and ‘92. (1)

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

Yes, many many times. (2)

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

No, he did not. (2)

5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

Messier had impact on 6 Cup winners, a Cup runner-up, and dragged stripped-down Oilers teams to the Conference Finals two times. An emphatic yes. (3)

6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?

Messier was a key member of 6 Cup winners. (4)

7. Was he ever a team Captain?

Messier was Captain of three different teams. (5)

8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?

Messier was Captain of 2 different Cup winning teams, and is the only man to hold this distinction. (6)

9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?

You know how, after 10 or 11 years in the NHL and his offense was fading, Steve Yzerman became a hell of a defensive centre? Mark Messier was excellent offensively AND defensively at the same time from a young age. He was thrown over the boards and given the job of shutting down Bryan Trottier in the Stanley Cup Finals. And did it. Messier faded in this department when he became old and was hanging around too long, but he spent the majority of his career as one hell of a two-way hockey player. Played hard at both ends, minded his positioning, and then absolutely punished opposing players. (7)

10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

Messier intimidated opposing players and even teammates, if he felt they were standing in the way of victory. He left a Howe-esque trail of injuries from opposing players, and once during an intermission in the Finals against Philly, grabbed Kent Nilsson (his own teammate) by the throat and told him to quit ****** around out there. An all-timer in this category. (8)

11. Did he play a lot/well after he passed his prime?

Messier was extremely durable. and played until he was 43 years old, still able to score 50 Adjusted Points in his final year. (9)

12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?

Messier was named a 1st AS 4 times and a 2nd AS once. (10)

13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

All of the players with similar statistics to Messier are in the HOF. (11)

14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

Messier won Hart and Lindsay Trophies in 1990 and 1992. (12)

15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy?

Messier the Conn Smythe in 1984 (13)

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)

I don’t think so. (13)

17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

Messier is one of the few players who can get a point here, and more than a bit of it is down to his Cup win in 1994, and his becoming a cult hero during his days a New York Ranger, and is considered to be one of the greatest leaders in the history of professional sports. This is a major deal. (14)

18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

Great player, but I don’t think he should get a point here.

Mark Messier was everything that we were told Eric Lindros would be. He is what every single club that drafts a big centre hopes their kid will become. This man stole MVP awards, both regular season and playoff, from the likes of Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

I just don’t see why a sales pitch is even needed. For me, the only centres I would place above him are Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Morenz, and Mikita.

[JR Ewing]

 

Edit: I failed to add that if Hart Trophies are a consideration, I think he should actually only have one. He had a great year in 1990, but Bourque should have won the Hart.

 

The men who played against both of them disagree, and gave the Lindsay to Messier.

[jammer2]

@JR Ewing  Thanks for your work on that list....puts things in a much clearer perspective. Ha..when the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup, I clearly remember Trottier beat down, simply exhausted by Messier and his relentless brand of defense. Even the year before when the Isles won their final cup, you could see the transition..and how much Mess owned Trottier. Trotts was a lot like Clarke, he was never blessed with a graceful beautiful stride, he had to work hard for everything he got...the skating did not come easy for him, but much like Clarke he just willed himself to the spot where he knew he needed to be....but when you meet up with a BEAST like Mess, that all goes to hell. Trotts was a great warrior, but inevitably could not overcome the speed game that Mess was throwing at him...or the hits, that physically destroyed him.

[ScottM]

I just don’t see why a sales pitch is even needed.

 

I may not have chosen the best title for the thread, because I am convinced he's a great player, it's just that I think that there are a lot of other centers that are deserving of recognition that I don't see Mess as high as almost anyone else does. That said, while I don't think he would have made my top ten list before, I think he will after all of the discussion. If he played any player other than center, there would have been no question whatsoever.

 

I'm still not where most people are, and I tend to doubt that I ever will be, but those were some outstanding points. You did move me a bit anyway.

 

 

The men who played against both of them disagree, and gave the Lindsay to Messier.

 

That's true and it's a highly valid point, and I most certainly value their opinion more than the that of the Hart voters. That said, in this case, I feel strongly enough about Bourque's season that I'd still cast my ballot for him if I were a voter and that season were played today. It's more a matter of being impressed with Bourque's season than being unimpressed with Messier's. In fact, I'm not at all unimpressed with Mess that year.

[J0e Th0rnton]

The men who played against both of them disagree, and gave the Lindsay to Messier.

Different trophies though. 1 is for "Most outstanding player, and the other is for "Most valuable player".

Quite frankly, both guys had such outstanding seasons I think fretting over who deserved it more is silly. To put it plainly, I think either of those guys in 1990 were better than Thornton's Hart year. So who cares who won? Just call them both outstanding

 

 

Yzerman won the Pearson or Lindsay(Why did they change the name?) the year Lemieux outscored him 199 to 155 and Gretzky won the Hart with 168 points, so who knows how these awards really get voted and what people think their vote means.

[jammer2]

@ScottM It is hard to believe that Mess won the Lady Byng. How does that even happen. I swear, sometimes the NHL uses that award to give a trophy to someone who really deserved one, but got beat out by great competition. Kind of a ....well, Mess didn't win any other one...can we find a way to justify this through is stats....somehow, someway?

[flyercanuck]

@ScottM It is hard to believe that Mess won the Lady Byng. How does that even happen. I swear, sometimes the NHL uses that award to give a trophy to someone who really deserved one, but got beat out by great competition. Kind of a ....well, Mess didn't win any other one...can we find a way to justify this through is stats....somehow, someway?

 

 

Huh????