jammer2 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Kind of like when you ice a team with Cooke and Neal, you can't have your owner running around whining about cheap hits and how we should let skill be skill? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 My $.02:There is nothing I like about that hit. If Silfverberg's head and neck were not on his body, that hit would have been almost an entire miss. Puck was gone more than two strides before the hit. Too many strides. It's pretty much a textbook example of what NOT to do! It doesn't belong in our game.The earlier hit on Hossa was a more acceptable hit OTHER THAN the fact that the puck was gone for more about a second, which made it inexcusable. That one was at least a hit to the body as well as the head. This one...there is no excuse that I can even try to fabricate for it, even if i did try, which I won't.I am somewhat proud/relieved that the NHL seems to be--at least in some cases--growing a backbone and properly meting discipline on dirty players, and taking head injury prevention more seriously. There is certainly more work to do. I think the 41 game suspension sends the right message pretty clearly--that this kind of hit does not belong in this game, and if you continue to throw them, YOU don't belong in it either.At some point, I also think there needs to be a hard limit on how many of these offenses the league will tolerate. What if Torres serves the suspension and then does the same thing that virtually ends the career of yet another player? An 82-game suspension just seems like too little too late then. Maybe have a standing rule that if you are suspended X number of games that you AUTOMATICALLY are out for a full season or permanently. It is high time to put the fear of ending your career in the heads of these players. Not that using it as a deterrent will necessarily work to stop them, but removing them from the game will for certain.I would also like to see the discipline meted out more even-handedly. Star or elite status should have ZERO to do with how much discipline is given. It is easy to give a player like Torres this kind of suspension. I hope to one day see a case where even an elite player who makes a mistake and delivers this kind of dirty hit is disciplined with equal severity, certainly taking into consideration the player's history of these kinds of offenses. If a fourth-liner should get 8 games for a dirty hit, a star player who does the same thing with similar history should get the same punishment. I look forward to that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Hey - Pronger made it to eight suspensions. And the eigth was only 8 games. Talk about getting off easy. So ? Troll much ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 To Raffi Torres..... Congrats! You now have succeeded in ending what little NHL career you potentially had. No one and I mean no one should pick you up after the season. Dude you are as reckless as they come and too much of a liability. Hope you enjoy your post NHL career. The NHL does not need you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 So ? Troll much ? I've seen similar from Flyers fans in the Pens forum...from some pretty respected posters. If you can't see the difference between trolling and having a little fun (when Flyers fans have a lot more of the same fun with Pens fans) then you are in the wrong forum, Mojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 @B21 i was a little cranky this am, i did think that your comment cheapened the discussion , which to that point was pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 In terms of how the league has changed in dealing with repeat offenders, it's relevant to contrast the dirty, cheap-shot antics of Chris Pronger with how they are being dealt with today. His game wouldn't be tolerated these days to anywhere near the extent that it was before. Good to see Raffl get what's coming to him and to see a new day in how the league addresses these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 it's relevant to contrast the dirty, cheap-shot antics of Chris Pronger with how they are being dealt with today. His game wouldn't be tolerated these days to anywhere near the extent that it was before. i like a joke and general clowning around as much as the next guy, but... what Pronger did in 1996 or whatever has no bearing on how raffi torres is dealt with under different rules 20 years later. so what oh the irony that he is the disciplinary guy for the league ? that joke has been done since he took the job. there is now pretty solid new science regarding head trauma that wasn't known 20 years ago, again correlates poorly to Chris Pronger's playing days. like i said i was cranky this AM and wasn't feeling it. it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I was merely making the point, when you roster a player like Torres, you can never complain or take the higher moral ground about your own players being attacked, cause you roster one of the big problems in this league...so, in essence, when you play Torres, you just can't complain out illegal hits...it's instant karma. Which NHL team hasn't employed a player like Torres (or at least a comparable player since Raffi is up there now with Chris Simon)? Bruins – McSorleySabres - KaletaWings – Kronwall, BertuzziPanthers - ???Canadiens - ???Senators – Neill, RuutuuBolts - DownieLeafs – Domi, TuckerCanes - UlfJackets - WisnewskiDevils - VolchenkovIslanders - Simon, KasparaitisRangers – Avery, UlfFlyers – Pronger, Downie, Carcillo, UlfPens - Cooke, Neal, Ruutuu, Kasparaitis, UlfCaps - Simon Ducks - ProngerCoyotes - TorresFlames - SimonOilers - ProngerKings - GauthierSharks - TorresCanucks - CookeHawks - CarcilloAvalanche - DownieStars - AveryWild - CookePredators – Neal, VolchenkovBlues - LapierreJets - ??? And that's only about 5 minutes worth of effort put into this. Clearly - you mean Mario. What about Melnyk of the Senators whining about Cooke? Or Claude Julien about Neal? I only remember those two because the assailant wore black and gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 @B21 i was a little cranky this am, i did think that your comment cheapened the discussion , which to that point was pretty good. And still is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 there is now pretty solid new science regarding head trauma that wasn't known 20 years ago, again correlates poorly to Chris Pronger's playing days. Pronger's most recent suspension was 2008. Before that 2007, 2007, 2004, 2002, 2001, 1998, 1995 This isn't about "20 years ago" - three of them are less than seven seasons ago. Five were in the last ten years and as any Flyer fan who watched Eric Lindros would know concussions were a major issue in this league 20 years ago as well. Be cranky, fine. Hell, I am often enough. But Pronger's "playing days" are during the evolution of this process and clearly show how far the league has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Regarding Pronger, what may or may not be relevant is trying to compare 1990's hockey to now. The rules are different. Different eras punished differently. What IS relevant, even now, is how the league seems to still have a double standard of discipline--one for second line (or lower) players, and one for elite players. I think Pronger received preferential treatment because he was a star in this league. That was never more clear to me than with Weber's boarding hit on Zetterberg in the playoffs 4 or 5 years ago. Didn't even get a game! Fined? Are you kidding me? He was only playing because he was the TV draw for that series on the Preds side. Had that been a Predator that was not Shea Weber, there would have been a suspension. (I acknowledge that the wearing of my red and white colored glasses is probably what made me think of that particular example more than other ones, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a premium example of the very thing I'm talking about.) Another example would be Ovechkin's multiple charging calls. Those were downright blatant, and compared to if a role player had done them, he got off easy, especially on that repeat offense. That problem still exists today. It is my hope that such partiality will end, and soon and that improper hits are judged by the nature of the hits themselves along with the damage that they do. It is hard to see someone get a few games while rendering another players career a partial or virtual loss. That, admittedly, is difficult to legislate correctly in foresight. Having said that, I applaud that the league has done more than any major contact sport in addressing head and brain injuries earlier. Could have been even earlier, but compared with the ignorance of the NFL, the NHL looks downright clairvoyant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Regarding Pronger, what may or may not be relevant is trying to compare 1990's hockey to now. Yes, but only two of his suspensions were "1990s hockey" related.The other six are in this millennium, five within the past 10 years. What IS relevant, even now, is how the league seems to still have a double standard of discipline--one for second line (or lower) players, and one for elite players. Could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 SpikeDDS, on 06 Oct 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:Regarding Pronger, what may or may not be relevant is trying to compare 1990's hockey to now. Yes, but only two of his suspensions were "1990s hockey" related.The other six are in this millennium, five within the past 10 years. OK, but the Department of Player Safety and the significant rules changes regarding the targeting of the head didn't happen until 2009, right? So it's still hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison, even from the aughts to this decade, because the rules were different and enforcement was more arbitrary. If Colin Campbell was getting laid when Pronger hit somebody wrong, he got a light punishment. Campbell was in the doghouse for someone else? Throw the book at 'em. It was different, because there was less accountability. I'm not saying your point is completely invalid. It's just hard to know HOW relevant it is. Other players playing at that time were also getting away with a lot more crap than players are today as a whole. I think we still agree--I'm far from saying Pronger wasn't a dirty player--but I think focusing on what is much more arguable--the aforementioned double-standard--has more teeth. And comparing how one player is disciplined versus another who was playing at the same time is a much more pertinent comparison. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean that you are wrong. Pronger and the perceived injustice of how he was disciplined was probably one of the reasons that the DPS was formed in the first place. It certainly served as one example of why things needed to change. P.S. One of the reasons I chose the Weber hit (which was more of a slamming of his face into the glass--but causing concussion) was that it came AFTER the rules changes and the formation of the DPS. Makes it more relevant for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I'm not saying your point is completely invalid. It's just hard to know HOW relevant it is. My point was that Pronger's situation shows the evolution of how they treat this sort of incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Which NHL team hasn't employed a player like Torres (or at least a comparable player since Raffi is up there now with Chris Simon)? Coyotes - TorresOilers - ProngerSharks - TorresAnd that's only about 5 minutes worth of effort put into this. Clearly - you mean Mario. What about Melnyk of the Senators whining about Cooke? Or Claude Julien about Neal? I only remember those two because the assailant wore black and gold. For Oilers, I'd add: -Bryan Marchment Oh. And: Raffi Torres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I think we still agree--I'm far from saying Pronger wasn't a dirty player--but I think focusing on what is much more arguable--the aforementioned double-standard--has more teeth. And comparing how one player is disciplined versus another who was playing at the same time is a much more pertinent comparison. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean that you are wrong. FWIW - I brought Pronger into the discussion as it was relevant to the number of times Torres has been suspended. Not necessarily the number of games. The question was posed as far as how many times a player must be suspended before the NHL says "Enough is enough." This is Torres fifth suspension. Pronger made it to 8 including some incidents a lot worse than anything Torres has done. Nigh a Flyers fan was calling for his head on a platter when he was acquired. You are right - comparing the number of games the NHL was handing out during Pronger's career versus Torres' career is apples and oranges. Pronger's eighth and final suspension was a few years before Torres' first. Despite the repeat offenses Pronger was never suspended more than 8 games...and that was the last one. That said, it's not hard to look at Pronger's "body of work" and conclude that in today's NHL his act would not at all be tolerated (as @radoran noted). On top of that, your "star player" point had something to do with his (lack of) discipline. Back on topic - Raffi clearly got what he deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 For Oilers, I'd add: -Bryan Marchment Oh. And: Raffi Torres LOL. I tried to limit it to teams those guys were actually playing for when the did something naughty or teams who signed/trade for them after their reputations were well established. (I could not pass up Ulf on the Flyers.) Hence - no James Neal on Dallas for example. I'm sure I missed a lot. That said - the point shouldn't get lost. Everyone has employed a d'bag at one time or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 LOL. I tried to limit it to teams those guys were actually playing for when the did something naughty or teams who signed/trade for them after their reputations were well established. (I could not pass up Ulf on the Flyers.) Hence - no James Neal on Dallas for example. I'm sure I missed a lot. That said - the point shouldn't get lost. Everyone has employed a d'bag at one time or another. I agree 100%. This ridiculousness where fans have a moan about this team being dirty or that team being dirty usually requires a certain cognitive dissonance, because without a doubt, their own team has or recently had a player like that. Hockey can be a dirty sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Nigh a Flyers fan was calling for his head on a platter when he was acquired. To be clear, I never liked Pronger. Not even a little bit. Had to hold that in check for a season and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 To be clear, I never liked Pronger. Not even a little bit. Had to hold that in check for a season and a half. Pronger was one hell of a defenseman, and I loved how he elevated the Oilers when he was there. But, he was as unlikable a player as there ever were. He was a bastard but (to quote FDR) he was our bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 My point was that Pronger's situation shows the evolution of how they treat this sort of incident.I agree with that. Knew we'd eventually get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Another unforgivable thing to me is, Kesler was on the ice and Raffi went after someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Pronger's most recent suspension was 2008. Before that 2007, 2007, 2004, 2002, 2001, 1998, 1995 This isn't about "20 years ago" - three of them are less than seven seasons ago. Five were in the last ten years and as any Flyer fan who watched Eric Lindros would know concussions were a major issue in this league 20 years ago as well. Be cranky, fine. Hell, I am often enough. But Pronger's "playing days" are during the evolution of this process and clearly show how far the league has come. Do you have to look this stuff up at least, or are you like Reed on Criminal Minds? Rad...injecting facts into the debate since ....well, a long time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 To be clear, I never liked Pronger. Not even a little bit. Had to hold that in check for a season and a half. I'm sure there were a few that share your sentiment. I really just felt the need to use "nigh" in a post today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.