ScottM Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 It's been quite some time since I did one of these, but I want to restart this series. Today, we revisit the Vezina Trophy in 2003. In this case, neither the vote nor the stats were close, but the big win went to the candidate with the stats that appear inferior on the surface. The two goalies in question are Martin Brodeur and Marty Turco. Brodeur won the award with 48.52% of the vote, and Turco finished second with 21.85%. Stats Brodeur: 43-21-9 record, .914 save percentage, 2.02 goals against average, 9 shutouts Turco: 31-10-10 record, .932 save percentage, 1.72 goals against average, 7 shutouts Synopsis Brodeur led the league in wins and shutouts, though Turco's win percentage and shutout percentage were better. Turco was 10th in wins that season, thanks to his making only 51 appearances compared to Brodeur's 73. Turco led the league in save percentage and goals against average while Brodeur finished 14th and 4th in those categories respectively. Both goalies backstopped division winners, though Brodeur had less goal support. So, there's your look at the numbers. Who should have won the trophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Turco, Martin's superior GAA and wins could likely have been because of a superior team. Or atleast, superior defensively. Since we're all aware that GAA and wins is a team oriented stat as opposed to Save percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Turco, Martin's superior GAA and wins could likely have been because of a superior team. Or atleast, superior defensively. Since we're all aware that GAA and wins is a team oriented stat as opposed to Save percentage.Come on now. The stars were still a pretty damn good team under Tippett. 111 points that season. Lehtinen/Modano were among the top two way forwards in the league. Derian Hatcher under clutch and grab was actually 3rd for the Norris that year(He WAS good when able to clutch and grab) And Turco was a flash in the pan. Brodeur playing 20 more games is a point in his favor as a trusted workhorse. Turco was valuable for around 20 less games that year. Brodeur. Not close. oh, and Jean-S Gigantopads did not deserve the Smythe. He was "Meh" in the finals when it mattered most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I thought Jose Theodore won it that year. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom Theodore's big year was 2001-02. I've got to go with Turco. I think comparing the teams is getting into the weeds a bit since both were great teams, and both had some fine defensemen. I can't really go with the "flash in a pan" argument either. I know it's true, but the Vezina only deals with one season, so a flash in the pan that had an outstanding year should get just as much consideration as any other goalie. Brodeur was certainly a work horse. He always was. Being the workhorse does deserve some consideration in my opinion, but Turco was just too far ahead in most categories for that to win out. Had Turco played more games, his numbers might not have been quite as good, but I'm confident that they would have still been better, and he would have ended up with wins and shutouts as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I wonder why Turco didn't play more games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What the voters see:Brodeur: 43-21-9 record, .914 save percentage, 2.02 goals against average, 9 shutouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom Except that Turco's GAA was a full three-tenths of a goal lower. lower than Brodeur's. And leading the league in shutouts isn't a shoo-in either. Otherwise. Marc Andre-Fleury would have won lat year's Vezina. He wasn't even a finalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom Except that Turco's GAA was a full three-tenths of a goal lower. lower than Brodeur's. And leading the league in shutouts isn't a shoo-in either. Otherwise. Marc Andre-Fleury would have won lat year's Vezina. He wasn't even a finalist. I know. I think they probably weigh "wins" as the most important stat when giving the Vezina, then shutouts and GAA, and they put save % last. I would weigh it by: Save percentage (over significant playing time of course) GAA shutoutsWins = non-factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Still Brodeur IMHO and not even close. Brodeur accomplished this starting 73 games, a manly amount, Turco 51 which is a little over half of his teams total. It would have been like giving the Vezina to Brian Elliot a few years ago when he went 23-10-4 with a 1.56 goals against. I agree Turco was great that year, but 51 decisions means that he had 31 games played by someone else. Brodeur was an absolute horse, so good that people look past him sometimes and try to find something to denigrate him. Turco was solid that year but simply not in the same class as Brodeur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Still Brodeur IMHO and not even close. Brodeur accomplished this starting 73 games, a manly amount, Turco 51 which is a little over half of his teams total. It would have been like giving the Vezina to Brian Elliot a few years ago when he went 23-10-4 with a 1.56 goals against. I agree Turco was great that year, but 51 decisions means that he had 31 games played by someone else. Brodeur was an absolute horse, so good that people look past him sometimes and try to find something to denigrate him. Turco was solid that year but simply not in the same class as Brodeur. Maybe in terms of more adequate play, Turco wins. But its not assured that he keeps such a pace in the amount of games Brodeur played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 Still Brodeur IMHO and not even close. Brodeur accomplished this starting 73 games, a manly amount, Turco 51 which is a little over half of his teams total. It would have been like giving the Vezina to Brian Elliot a few years ago when he went 23-10-4 with a 1.56 goals against. I agree Turco was great that year, but 51 decisions means that he had 31 games played by someone else. Brodeur was an absolute horse, so good that people look past him sometimes and try to find something to denigrate him. Turco was solid that year but simply not in the same class as Brodeur. I certainly get the argument there, and I believe Brodeur was a worthy candidate because of that. I don't have an issue with anyone thinking it was a Brodeur win. I guess my only question is, why don't you find it close?. I'd say that Turco is on the low end of games played for someone I'd consider, but he did play 62% of the team's games. Tim Thomas won it twice while playing 54 and 57 games, and Patrick Roy won it back in 1988-89 while playing only 48. Roy, similarly to Turco, separated himself pretty well from the guys who played more games, but Thomas faced some pretty stiff competition. I do know what you mean about some people cutting Brodeur down. I don't have him at #1, but considering the number of games he played and won, I get why others do. Honestly, I think there's a real argument to be made that he should have won the Vezina in 1997 over Hasek. I'm just not sure that I see the win for him here, close as I may find it. Anyway, I'm not trying to bash your opinion. I'm just curious as to your train of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.