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2012 was the end of the world (The real root of our troubles)


King Knut

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Everyone loves to blame Homer because of Bryz and VLC and Luke Schenn.

These are atrocious mistakes but to me, the real downfall of this Flyers team was the summer when Homer didn't attempt to resign Jagr or Carle and instead wasted his summer on wet dreams of Parise, Suter and Weber.

The loss and inability to replace either of those two players and chasing replacing them for three years is what has really killed this team and really the mistake that they've been completely unable to recover from.

There's been a parade of mediocre players getting paid way too much to be far worse than what he let walk that summer.

homer set up this folly by trading JVR for Luke Schenn, just one of the many deals which still has me wondering if homer actually had a terrible stroke in the summer of 2010 after the finals loss.

And this goes beyond Schenn and Vinny and Mac... Who are just the most egregious of the laundry list of failures Homer blew inordinate amounts of cap space on after losing Jagr and Carle.

Both jags And Carle would have cost a fraction of what he's still paying Mac And Vinny (Carle makes more but Mac's contract lasts longer) And of course because we're paying them so damn much we can't afford to make corrections to the lineup elsewhere.

All of which makes 2012 the Worst summer in recent franchise memory. Maybe ever.

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Everyone loves to blame Homer because of Bryz and VLC and Luke Schenn.

These are atrocious mistakes but to me, the real downfall of this Flyers team was the summer when Homer didn't attempt to resign Jagr or Carle and instead wasted his summer on wet dreams of Parise, Suter and Weber.

The loss and inability to replace either of those two players and chasing replacing them for three years is what has really killed this team and really the mistake that they've been completely unable to recover from.

There's been a parade of mediocre players getting paid way too much to be far worse than what he let walk that summer.

homer set up this folly by trading JVR for Luke Schenn, just one of the many deals which still has me wondering if homer actually had a terrible stroke in the summer of 2010 after the finals loss.

And this goes beyond Schenn and Vinny and Mac... Who are just the most egregious of the laundry list of failures Homer blew inordinate amounts of cap space on after losing Jagr and Carle.

Both jags And Carle would have cost a fraction of what he's still paying Mac And Vinny (Carle makes more but Mac's contract lasts longer) And of course because we're paying them so damn much we can't afford to make corrections to the lineup elsewhere.

All of which makes 2012 the Worst summer in recent franchise memory. Maybe ever.

 

You have a valid point to degree.  I agree not resigning Jagr was a HUGE mistake, however, lest us not forget what type of whipping boy Carle became on her and around Flyer world.

 

The trades certainly did not help and by putting all our eggs in one basket trying to acquire Weber and/or Suter and/or Parise without a Plan B (and not the contraception device)...certainly accelerated the downfall.

 

However, IMO, the stupid contracts and NMC that Homer handed out certainly trumps as the #1 reason for the current state of affairs, but I will agree yours is not far behind in Homer's stupid acts column.

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You have a valid point to degree. I agree not resigning Jagr was a HUGE mistake, however, lest us not forget what type of whipping boy Carle became on her and around Flyer world.
The trades certainly did not help and by putting all our eggs in one basket trying to acquire Weber and/or Suter and/or Parise without a Plan B (and not the contraception device)...certainly accelerated the downfall.
However, IMO, the stupid contracts and NMC that Homer handed out certainly trumps as the #1 reason for the current state of affairs, but I will agree yours is not far behind in Homer's stupid acts column.

 

I just don't think those contracts would have happened had he not needed to replace Jagr, Reemer and Carle. 

 

Carle was a whipping boy briefly and I hated him when he arrived because honestly, he wasn't good.  But playing with Pronger changed him utterly and that didn't go away (for long) when Pronger did.  He really seemed to "get it" after that. 

 

I don't think VLC or his NMC or the expectation that he would be effective into his 40's would have been a reasonable expectation at all if Homer had not looked like a moron for letting Jagr go.

It's ironic because at first Homer was a damn genius for bringing Jagr back into the NHL... for next to nuthin!

 

Oy vey

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I didn't understand then and will never understand why they didn't just "reload that gun."

 

They beat the Pens and then lost to eventual Conference winner New Jersey.

 

They have one playoff round since.

 

And both Parise and Suter were quite public about not wanting to come to Philadelphia.

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I just don't think those contracts would have happened had he not needed to replace Jagr, Reemer and Carle.

 

Maybe or maybe not when considerJagr and VLC.....

 

I'm talkinig about the insane contracts to Bryzaster, Hartnell and McDud.  Those were not predicated by the not resigning of Jagr and Carle.  Well maybe McDud because they went out and traded for him and giving the Isles a #2 pick in the process...still they did not have to extend his contract the way they did.  They could have cut their losses and let him go and not be tied to yet another immovable contract.

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Hartnell

 

What was so "insane" about the Hartnell deal? Locking up your top line LW that had scored less than 20 once in a full season in his tenure in Philadelphia and had bested 30 twice (including 37) for $4.75M?

 

That's called "market value" for a 20/50 player in this league - if not a bit of a "hometown discount."

 

One can take issue with the length, but like his first deal that Homer gave him (along with Briere and Timonen) it was designed to be below market value at the end. Would Hartnell have continued to produce at the 35 and 36 years of the deal? Maybe/maybe not.

 

But he just potted 28 last season and is "on pace" this year for 36 goals and 60+ points.

 

And the Flyers have a huge gaping hole on the left side of their top line that, quite frankly, it will be hard to fill with anything but a prospect for less than $4.75M.

 

 

 

McDud because they went out and traded for him and giving the Isles a #2 pick in the process

 

And a 3.

 

:hocky:

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What was so "insane" about the Hartnell deal?

 

I looked at the length of the contract which would take him to over 35.  That was my main problem with the contract. Too me it just seem way too long and did not give alot of wiggle room if his skills declined.

 


And a 3.

 

I forgot about the #3 pick also...my bad.

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I looked at the length of the contract which would take him to over 35. That was my main problem with the contract. Too me it just seem way too long and did not give alot of wiggle room if his skills declined.

 

Yeah, that was definitely a concern. But if his skills didn't decline...

 

You gotta admit having Hartnell on the top line would probably have made a big difference last year and this year.

 


my bad.

 

Oh, no! Not "your bad" - Homer's

 

:hocky:

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Yeah, that was definitely a concern. But if his skills didn't decline...

You gotta admit having Hartnell on the top line would probably have made a big difference last year and this year.

 

totally agree with that.

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I really do think there's something to the 2012 argument.

Not just for what was done/not done then but for the panic moves it caused later. Not a bad thesis, King knut.

That, some really bad coaching hires, the Pronger mortgage and subsequent destruction of property. Those go into it, too.

But the mismanagement of the summer of 2012 really did exacerbate and accelerate the plummet of this team.

And, yet, he still has a job. Go figure.

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I guess it depends on what you mean by "big difference." More wins? Likely. Playoff berth? That I'm not so sure about. Hartnell probably increases the top line's output by 10-15 total goals, but there's no way Raffl is potting 21 down the lineup, so that increase is going to be mitigated somewhat in the already lacking secondary scoring (last season). I don't know that they're picking up 14 points to knock Pittsburgh out of the playoffs last year, even with Hartnell.

 

I think the most likely scenario is that they're sitting 3ish points out at the deadline, and neither buy (because the assets it would cost are ones that Hextall espouses keeping), nor sell (because how can you justify "giving up" on a shot at the playoffs when you're just a few points outside?). Does that put them in a better, or worse position?

 

This season, the two top guys from last year can't get any traction. Not sure how big a help Hartnell would be there, either.

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I guess it depends on what you mean by "big difference." More wins? Likely. Playoff berth? That I'm not so sure about. Hartnell probably increases the top line's output by 10-15 total goals, but there's no way Raffl is potting 21 down the lineup, so that increase is going to be mitigated somewhat in the already lacking secondary scoring (last season). I don't know that they're picking up 14 points to knock Pittsburgh out of the playoffs last year, even with Hartnell.

I think the most likely scenario is that they're sitting 3ish points out at the deadline, and neither buy (because the assets it would cost are ones that Hextall espouses keeping), nor sell (because how can you justify "giving up" on a shot at the playoffs when you're just a few points outside?). Does that put them in a better, or worse position?

 

Well, he only "sold" Timonen and Coburn. The first one I think he still makes. Do they still go for the Coburn deal? I think if Tampa was still offering a 1st, Gudas and a 3rd that he does.

 

There are obviously a lot of variables - including not having a potted plant Umburglar on the ice for 67 games.

 

But I do think the top line is a LOT more potent with an actual Top Six LW instead of Raffl.

 


This season, the two top guys from last year can't get any traction. Not sure how big a help Hartnell would be there, either.

 

Hartnell has eight goals (six assists) this season. Raffl has three points.

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I guess it depends on what you mean by "big difference." More wins? Likely. Playoff berth? That I'm not so sure about. Hartnell probably increases the top line's output by 10-15 total goals, but there's no way Raffl is potting 21 down the lineup, so that increase is going to be mitigated somewhat in the already lacking secondary scoring (last season). I don't know that they're picking up 14 points to knock Pittsburgh out of the playoffs last year, even with Hartnell.

 

I think the most likely scenario is that they're sitting 3ish points out at the deadline, and neither buy (because the assets it would cost are ones that Hextall espouses keeping), nor sell (because how can you justify "giving up" on a shot at the playoffs when you're just a few points outside?). Does that put them in a better, or worse position?

 

This season, the two top guys from last year can't get any traction. Not sure how big a help Hartnell would be there, either.

 

 

Raff is not doing anything near that on the top line this year anyway.

 

One thing I can guarantee is that Hartnell would bring a heck of a lot more leadership than RJ.  And he certainly would be helping out the power play

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Raff is not doing anything near that on the top line this year anyway.

One thing I can guarantee is that Hartnell would bring a heck of a lot more leadership than RJ. And he certainly would be helping out the power play

If it gets Raffl the hell off the top line, I'm in.

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Seriously, what kind of sorry team has been constructed that Michael freakin Raffl is on the top line? I could see McGinn, but Raffl? He's a nice little "yeah, he was there, too" player. But top line? No.

I know, this is where someone tells me about Fedyk. Another guy who had no business on the top line.

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Maybe or maybe not when considerJagr and VLC.....

I'm talkinig about the insane contracts to Bryzaster, Hartnell and McDud. Those were not predicated by the not resigning of Jagr and Carle. Well maybe McDud because they went out and traded for him and giving the Isles a #2 pick in the process...still they did not have to extend his contract the way they did. They could have cut their losses and let him go and not be tied to yet another immovable contract.

Well Bryz, I'll give you because he was just a knee jerk reaction to 2010 and not having a number one. That was what goalies were getting then, but he didn't merit it. Though I remind us that he still holds team records from his first year here.

But Hartnell's new contract came just a month after Jagr and Carle walked. Coincidence?

And I co tend that Mac was a continued effort to directly replace Carle following Streit who was the heir apparent for Kimmo' role which seemed openly up on the air that summer.

I think Homer got burned and spend a lot of time and money trying to not get burned again, missing the point entirely.

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Well, he only "sold" Timonen and Coburn. The first one I think he still makes. Do they still go for the Coburn deal? I think if Tampa was still offering a 1st, Gudas and a 3rd that he does.

 

There are obviously a lot of variables - including not having a potted plant Umburglar on the ice for 67 games.

 

But I do think the top line is a LOT more potent with an actual Top Six LW instead of Raffl.

 

 

 

 

Hartnell has eight goals (six assists) this season. Raffl has three points.

 

I don't know that he makes either. Timonen hadn't played a game at the deadline, but was almost ready to come back. If you're three points out of the playoffs, do you trade your top defenseman from a year ago, given the boost his return might give your team? Your top defensive pair?

 

The Blue Jackets currently have five players with as many points as Giroux. Nine, including two defensemen, with as many as Voracek. Their top line is still producing, even though they are losing. The Flyers' top line isn't. And it's not just because they lack a top line LW. Voracek is shooting at less than 2%. If he could get that up to his career mark, he'd have 6 goals at this point. At the rate he's shooting, if he'd hit his career percentage over the season, he'd be on pace for right around 30 goals.

 

Neither Giroux nor Voracek is a high percentage shooter (Giroux 11.4, Voracek 9.8 in their careers), so Hartnell isn't going to add a lot of goals for those two - and goals win games. Add to that the fact that a higher percentage of Hartnell's points as a Flyer since the departure of Jagr (ie, the dawn of the Giroux-Voracek duo) came on the powerplay... He'd help, absolutely. Help them make the playoffs last season or this one? I don't think so. The team just has too many other problems.

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Well Bryz, I'll give you because he was just a knee jerk reaction to 2010 and not having a number one. That was what goalies were getting then, but he didn't merit it. Though I remind us that he still holds team records from his first year here.

But Hartnell's new contract came just a month after Jagr and Carle walked. Coincidence?

And I co tend that Mac was a continued effort to directly replace Carle following Streit who was the heir apparent for Kimmo' role which seemed openly up on the air that summer.

I think Homer got burned and spend a lot of time and money trying to not get burned again, missing the point entirely.

 

Fair enough....you have some valid points.

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I didn't understand then and will never understand why they didn't just "reload that gun."

 

They beat the Pens and then lost to eventual Conference winner New Jersey.

 

They have one playoff round since.

 

And both Parise and Suter were quite public about not wanting to come to Philadelphia.

IIRC because they had cap issues (i know imagine that under Homer) and Jagr wanted what around 4.5mill which is what he got in Dallas.

So they couldn't sign him.

But maybe i am misremebering in the famous words of a steriod using baseball player who shall not be named....

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What I can't believe is how the Flyers forgot how bad of a job Holmgren did when he was GM of the Hartford Whalers back in the day. Everyone should have seen the writing on the wall coming the longer Holmgren was kept in the GM position. I'll give the devil his due though - his first couple of years, he did a pretty good job building up ridiculous forward depth. However, his constant moving and making change for the sake of change came back to bite this team. Where they really went downhill was the Pronger deal. I said it back then and I'll say it now - it was a bad deal anyway you look at it. Holmgren moved all depth and multiple picks to acquire a guy who was going to turn 35, had a lot of mileage on his body and was beginning to break down. He set the franchise back and then when Pronger went down, he panicked and started making all sorts of bad deals and handcuffed the team.

 

I feel for Hextall because he has a ridiculous mess to clean up. At the same time, the clock is ticking on him to get this team back to contention. I get that this season is going to be a write off, but if he wants to move bodies, he's going to have to start eating salary. That's pretty much the only way he's going to work younger players into the lineup and not give up valuable assets when moving out a bad contract.

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