Lets Bash JVR:Bungholes

[canoli]

Ah, that's right, thanks - next year he starts collecting the big $$. But it's really the contract that matters don't you think? And the expectation from Lavy and the Flyers that he contributes in a big way now that 17 and 18 are gone? In any case he's guaranteed that money regardless of how he plays, and if we're talking "premature" I'd say JVR's contract is the poster child for "too much too soon."

Seriously. Okay, he's "improved every year" as you rightly point out. But we're not looking for incremental, an-extra-6-points-every-year type of improvement are we? And forget the points for a minute, just look at how the kid plays the game, how he skates. There's nothing there - except once in a (great) while when he apparently feels like it.

That's why I jumped on you for the Hartnell comparison. JVR is a gifted hockey player, with speed, hands, a quick release and a cannon of a shot. Hartnell by comparison has none of those things. Yet look how he plays the game. For all his falling down and near-misses on offense, he fights and works his butt off to make things happen - every night. Yes he had a period last year after his divorce when he was lost on the ice - he got benched for it IIRC for a game or two. But as his personal life got sorted his game took off. Now he's tied for the lead in goals for the Flyers!

If JVR put in the work that Hartnell does JVR would be taking this league by storm. And at 22 - what the fk is he saving it for?

[radoran]

Sorry Rad but Hartnell and JVR are 2 completely different type of players and obviously 2 different personalities. Hartnell could have 1/2 the points he has right now and I'd still value his contribution night in night out. JVR may very well be "on pace" for 50 points but ... 50 points? From a guy who ran over the opposition for 2 weeks in the Buff series last April? From a guy who quite obviously has the natural ability to become a Bertuzzi-type forward, or a Vanek or a Zetterburg - but just doesn't put in the work to take the next steps.

I realize I don't know for sure if he's just not putting in the work. But damn - that's sure how it looks.

They are both "power forwards" - so they're not as "completely different" as you might think. Personality? Sure. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the Flyers see him taking Hartnell's spot.

And you're saying that if Hartnell had 18 points (8g, 10A) after 38 games and was making $4.2M you wouldn't have problems with him? That's not passing my smell test. Sorry. The fact that JVR has 21 points (11/10) in 33 games while making $1.654M and that STILL ISN'T ENOUGH is revealing.

JVR is 22 in his THIRD SEASON in the league. My point is that the FLYERS aren't as "disappointed" as the FANBASE when it comes to his production.

The contract may indeed be "too much too soon" but is it too much to ask for the contract to be IN IT'S FIRST YEAR before we make that assumption?

Now, year to year, he went 35 points to 40 and is "on pace" for 50 this season. Assume 6 points improvement every season. (your number) and he's a 80-point player at the end of his contract. True story.

Do I want to see more from JVR? Yes. And I expect to. And if I don't I'll be disappointed. Once it doesn't happen.

Not before.

[canoli]

Thanks Hexy for mentioning the post-game interview - and thanks Digi for posting it. I hadn't seen it till now. So okay, JVR acknowledges he's a "work in progress" so to speak. But honestly what else could he possibly say? "I think I'm having a great year"?

I know I'm being tough on the guy as a fan. He has a connection to me and my family as we grew up a couple towns over from where he did - years earlier of course. I hate ragging on any player who makes it out of New Jersey, especially that part of Jersey where hockey isn't exactly a big deal.

But he's way past frustrating me as a fan; he's now actively pissing me off every night. So he put together a solid 60 minutes of hockey last night - and what a surprise (!) he got rewarded for it on the score sheet. Great. Now, go do it again tomorrow and Sunday and for the next 40-some games...then turn it up and find another gear for the POs. High expectations? You bet. He deserves them - and that's supposed to be a good thing!

[orange_crush]

I really liked that line with JVR/Schenn/Simmonds

[canoli]

I hear ya Rad - all good points re: the money and the contracts. I stand by what I said about Hartnell though - yes he could have 18 points and if he was working just as hard as he is now I'd be fine with it.

of course it doesn't work that way. If was "working just as hard" he'd have more than 18 points and there'd be no discussion. So - I stand by it but I admit it was dumb - fair enough?

The part I disagree with you about is how you evaluate the ROI - I don't disagree that you're right, the ROI on JVR is probably right where it should be. I disagree that Return on Investment is a good way for a fan to evaluate a professional athlete. You make a great point about the Flyers probably being less "disappointed" than the fans are about JVR up till now. But that's how it should be right? Comcast, Snider, Homer - these guys are paying the salaries and living with the reputation their choices bring. Me, you, we're fans. We don't really care what a player's take-home pay is do we?

I just want to see the guy - whoever it is - work hard on his shifts not float along the perimeter. And if it's JVR, a young and gifted 2nd-overall pick - I want to see it sooner rather than later. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[idahophilly]

It sounds to me (per the article on Philly.com) that he has allot of nagging injuries, at least one requiring surgery...

[radoran]

I just want to see the guy - whoever it is - work hard on his shifts not float along the perimeter. And if it's JVR, a young and gifted 2nd-overall pick - I want to see it sooner rather than later. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Not unreasonable at all. I'd like to see the same thing.

I'm just not ready to put him into the same bin with Daigle and Fat Balloon. Yet.

For his draft class, his .51 PPG isn't all that bad. Kane's at .95 (JVR hasn't exactly been playing with Toews for much of his career) and JVR's pretty much on pace with Gagner (.59 PPG) and some guy named Voracek (.56 PPG) - numbers from hockeydb.com based on performance up to this season.

[canoli]

Yep - I can fall in line with that thinking - he's not Alex Daigle - yet anyway (though as I said I would not be shocked if he ends his NHL career exactly the same way) - and comparing him with his draft class is interesting - going by that you can say the Flyers signed the best forward available at the time.

But they sure made a mistake this summer by elevating him to a "we're counting on you" role - by word and by deed (the big contract) the Flyers management goofed. Maybe that's 20-20 hindsight, and of course the book on JVR is still in its first few chapters. I don't know what the Flyers could've done differently - they weren't keeping Richards and Carter, that much we know for certain. I guess they had no choice but to lead JVR to the well and hope he drinks. So far he's still sipping...

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

That draft class was far from deep, and that isn't JVRs fault. It's nice to see he's comparable to guys picked lower than him. But when you compare him to 2nd overall picks, he's looking pretty sad. Landeskog looks like a player already. Seguin is already better than him, by far. Hedman is still developing. Doughty has more points than JVR in his career, was drafted a year later, and is a defenceman! Staal, Ryan, Malkin, Staal, better, better, better, better. I don't expect JVR to be better than every 2nd overall pick. I'd just like to see him give the effort you expect out of one.

.

[Hexy27]

@Digityman

That's the one. At about the 1:25 mark he mentions that he has not had the same level of confidence this year that he did last year. It was good to see him own up to it.

[Mad Dog]

I don't think it's "premature" at all and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a consistent level of energy from a guy who's paid (and paid extremely well, even comparatively speaking) to play sports at the professional level. Rookie year, 2nd and 3rd year, periods of adjustment after being traded - fine, everyone develops differently and depending on the position (and how the organization addresses it) some guys can take twice as long as others to fulfill their roles on their team.

Of course. And I, much like you, have huge reservations about this guy. But we have seen what he can do. I really think - or hope - that the last year's playoffs was just a small sample of his potential...... a tip of an iceberg. Now, obviously, the "potential" doesn't get you far if you don't fulfill that potential. And that's a big dilemma for the organization - it has to be. Maybe he hasn't been put in a right situation. Who really knows. Maybe Laviolette is just not the right type of coach to get the maximum out of him. Hitch, despite the eternal "Hitch hates youth" was actually much underappreciated in how much he could get out of players (young or old) as long as there is something there to work with in the first place. Remember Joni Pitkanen? Joni clearly had his best 2 years when playing under Hitch. And after that he became just an average player.

My point is, I don't know if this is the right coach to develop players. Giroux has developed nicely, but who really knows how much of a credit for that belongs to the coach. I really have a suspicion that they coach JVR in a way that limits him in a gigantic way and prevents him from using his skillset to the fullest.

I completely understand the sentiment, believe me. I am frustrated myself. But the Flyers have a track record of giving up on young players. I woudl hate to see him flourish and become a star player racking up goals somewhere in Florida or Chicago. JVR may turn out to be a complete waste and a floater for the remainder of his career. But something tells me - and I can't really back it up with anything substantive - that he's been mismanaged by this coaching staff of this team in the worst possible way. He is certainly no saint himself and has to take a responsibility for his lack of consistent effort, but I see some indications of him just not being used properly.

Regardless of what the cause may be, if I am the Flyers, I would still work with him. Giving up on a player and trading him away is the easiest and most conveneint thing one can do. Developing your talent is harder. MUCH harder. That's where I feel they need to channel their energy.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Mad Dog

[radoran]

@radoran

That draft class was far from deep, and that isn't JVRs fault. It's nice to see he's comparable to guys picked lower than him. But when you compare him to 2nd overall picks, he's looking pretty sad. Landeskog looks like a player already. Seguin is already better than him, by far. Hedman is still developing. Doughty has more points than JVR in his career, was drafted a year later, and is a defenceman! Staal, Ryan, Malkin, Staal, better, better, better, better. I don't expect JVR to be better than every 2nd overall pick. I'd just like to see him give the effort you expect out of one.

You knew I was going to do this, right? (all numbers from hockeydb)

Seguin: .52 PPG. Doughty: .51 PPG. Hedman: .28 PPG. J. Staal: .54 PPG.

And Landeskog is having a nice half a season in Colorado. His 20 points in 41 games? .48 PPG.

JVR: .51 PPG.

Ryan? Malkin? E. Staal? Sure.

So, over the past nine #2 picks that were skaters (the 10th is Lehtfourin) JVR's PPG is about the same as five of them, better than one and lower than three guys who were tabbed as pretty much "can't miss" prospects coming out. Malkin played a ton with Crosby and Ryan was put immediately on Anaheim's top line.

[albertaflyer]

Are you guys still concerned about "J"?????????

The one thing I am concerned about is that the Flyers said he had a Abdominal tear. I've had the same injury and those don't heal on there own. I had to get surgery and was back on the ice in 5 weeks. It's a weird injury to. It doesn't hurt all the time just certain movements. Which is why I can see him struggling. I found that I was in most pain when I was pushing off with my legs. A big part of JVR's game is along the boards and that has to be bothering him a bit. I heard an interesting interview with Ryan Whitney a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about his ankle injury and how hard it is to concentrate on the ice at all time's when your always in pain. I can totally see it in JVR.

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

Seguin brings more to the game than points. So does Jordan Staal. Doughty is a defenceman. So is Hedman. 3 of those 4 guys were drafted AFTER JVR, and are already putting up the same point totals while being better all around players. The book is still out on Hedman. Now if JVR would show a little bit of "I give a f**k" on say, 2 or 3 shifts a game as opposed to 2 or 3 a month, he could become as valuable as the other 2nd overall picks. I've stood by this kid up until this year. I've been patient. I don't think JVRs development is slow, I just don't think he cares. I hope I'm wrong because he can be a very good player when he wants to be.

[radoran]

@radoran

Seguin brings more to the game than points. So does Jordan Staal. Doughty is a defenceman. So is Hedman. 3 of those 4 guys were drafted AFTER JVR, and are already putting up the same point totals while being better all around players. The book is still out on Hedman. Now if JVR would show a little bit of "I give a f**k" on say, 2 or 3 shifts a game as opposed to 2 or 3 a month, he could become as valuable as the other 2nd overall picks. I've stood by this kid up until this year. I've been patient. I don't think JVRs development is slow, I just don't think he cares. I hope I'm wrong because he can be a very good player when he wants to be.

I'm not 100% happy with JVR, but familiarity tends to breed contempt. Especially among Flyer fans.

If we were watching Doughty with his16 in 36, -2 this season I have a feeling there would be Flyer fans excoriating him for his play not living up to his salary. No, check that, I don't "have a feeling" I GUARANDAMNTEE people would be all over Doughty (and probably comparing him to other #2 picks like Malkin, Eric Staal Spezza and Bobby Ryan saying he's a disappointment).

Hedman's numbers are half JVRs - yes he's a D - and Hedman's out with a concussion now. Seguin's playing on the second line of the Stanley Cup Champions.

You also have guys who are on crap teams being asked to play top line minutes and produce accordingly - Landeskog, Ryan. JVR's not on a crap team (despite the goaltending). And he's not playing 1/2 line minutes BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE ORGANIZATION WANTS HIM TO DO.

JVR's been mainly a "3rd liner" with the Flyers. You put him up with Giroux and Jagr, and I'll wager he produces as much as - if not more than - Hartnell. And his PPG numbers go up dramatically.

And you've "stood up" for a player for two entire seasons? And that's enough? Two? Now we throw him under the bus because all he's done is put up better numbers each year he's in the league and improved on the ice each season?

Sure, if ya want to.

JVR absolutely needs to step it up and play with more ferocity and consistency. He says it himself.

I'd deal him for Weber or another important piece in a heartbeat. I'm not dealing him because I'm "disappointed" in his play.

And I'm not going to sit idly by while people criticize a player for not living up to a contract that HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

[mojo1917]

Couple of questions, does the Boston fanbase rag on Segiun ?

just curious, when ever i see that kid he's blowing past our defensemen and ripping off a shot, am i basing my admiration of him from a limited sampling, does he have sh!tty games too , ones where he plays like a 22 year old ? we only see the shiny part of the penny ?

JvR has so much ability, i think we all just hope he figures a way to combine it with effort so he can be a great player, the talent is there; he's got a great shot , is fing fast and will only get bigger once he gets his "man weight" on . the skill set to be one of the new breed of power forwards is in this kid, i think we're all afraid he'll wind up like JD Drew, or Sean Kemp.

[Podein25]

@flyercanuck I think you have just been watching too much Deadwood and have gotten mighty cantankerous.

#Hater

I don't think JVRs development is slow, I just don't think he cares.

That is a critical distinction to make. Well said.

[radoran]

just curious, when ever i see that kid he's blowing past our defensemen and ripping off a shot, am i basing my admiration of him from a limited sampling, does he have sh!tty games too , ones where he plays like a 22 year old ? we only see the shiny part of the penny ?

Point-wise, half (18 of 36) have come in blowout wins (9-0 vs CGY, 8-0 vs. FLA, 6-0 vs. PHI, 7-0 vs. TOR, 6-2 vs. TOR, 6-2 vs. BUF, 6-3 vs. EDM, 6-2 vs NYI, 6-0 vs. NYI, 6-1 vs. NJD)

That said, he does have four game winners - all coming in those blowout wins. 18 of his +31 are also from those games.

I'm not taking anything away from the guy as he is a solid player - and I don't watch enough Broons to have a better feel for him overall. But I'm not seeing him as leaps and bounds better than JVR at this point.

[flyercanuck]

I'm not 100% happy with JVR, but familiarity tends to breed contempt. Especially among Flyer fans.

If we were watching Doughty with his16 in 36, -2 this season I have a feeling there would be Flyer fans excoriating him for his play not living up to his salary. No, check that, I don't "have a feeling" I GUARANDAMNTEE people would be all over Doughty (and probably comparing him to other #2 picks like Malkin, Eric Staal Spezza and Bobby Ryan saying he's a disappointment).

Hedman's numbers are half JVRs - yes he's a D - and Hedman's out with a concussion now. Seguin's playing on the second line of the Stanley Cup Champions.

You also have guys who are on crap teams being asked to play top line minutes and produce accordingly - Landeskog, Ryan. JVR's not on a crap team (despite the goaltending). And he's not playing 1/2 line minutes BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE ORGANIZATION WANTS HIM TO DO.

JVR's been mainly a "3rd liner" with the Flyers. You put him up with Giroux and Jagr, and I'll wager he produces as much as - if not more than - Hartnell. And his PPG numbers go up dramatically.

And you've "stood up" for a player for two entire seasons? And that's enough? Two? Now we throw him under the bus because all he's done is put up better numbers each year he's in the league and improved on the ice each season?

Sure, if ya want to.

JVR absolutely needs to step it up and play with more ferocity and consistency. He says it himself.

I'd deal him for Weber or another important piece in a heartbeat. I'm not dealing him because I'm "disappointed" in his play.

And I'm not going to sit idly by while people criticize a player for not living up to a contract that HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

Doughty is having an off season for sure. The rest of his career has been excellent. Can we say that about JVR? Hardly.

I'm not complaining about JVRs points. I'm not complaining about his contract that hasn't kicked in yet. I'm complaining about his lack of effort, going on 3 years now, plus the same lack in WJs and games at UNH I saw.

Seguin may not be playing better than all 22 year olds, but at 19, he's playing better than almost any of them. He could have played in the WJs this year. JVR at 19 still wasn't sure if he wanted an NHL career or party at UNH. When you're 19 and are ahead of names like Ovechkin, Gaborik, Parise, Perry, Kovalchuk, etc.etc. etc, in NHL scoring I don't care what team you're on, you're doing something right. And Seguins game without the puck is miles ahead of JVRs.

Edited January 7, 2012 by flyercanuck

[radoran]

We better trade JVR now. His value will never be higher.

Oh, wait, no. His value is bubkus. There's no market for a guy who's going to put up 50 points in his third season and is under a reasonable cap number for the next five years or so.

Waive him.

It's the only way we'll get any value for the investment. And by "value" I mean "addition by subtraction."

</snark> ;-)

[mkscrewy]

@radoran

we can still trade him. we just have to throw in a second round pick to sweeten the deal.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Uh huh huh huh... He said bunghole.

[canoli]

We better trade JVR now. His value will never be higher.

Oh, wait, no. His value is bubkus. There's no market for a guy who's going to put up 50 points in his third season and is under a reasonable cap number for the next five years or so.

Waive him.

It's the only way we'll get any value for the investment. And by "value" I mean "addition by subtraction."

</snark> ;-)

well - if you're happy with him, great. Or - if you see a bright future for him helping the Flyers, great.

Me I see a guy who's still not sure if he wants to give what it takes to be better than an average NHL forward. With his speed, his big-body frame and his shot it'd be an awful shame if he's satisfied with that. imho.

I missed the game today - did he "build off" his last game, the one where he worked hard every shift, drove the net and not coincidentally cashed in for 2 goals?

[radoran]

well - if you're happy with him, great. Or - if you see a bright future for him helping the Flyers, great.

Me I see a guy who's still not sure if he wants to give what it takes to be better than an average NHL forward. With his speed, his big-body frame and his shot it'd be an awful shame if he's satisfied with that. imho.

I missed the game today - did he "build off" his last game, the one where he worked hard every shift, drove the net and not coincidentally cashed in for 2 goals?

I was a bit snarky today. Prepping for dental work on Monday :-(

I think JVR had a pretty good game today, The Simmonds-Schenn-JVR line seems to be working well. I think they're all good influences on each other, actually. Will be watching again tomorrow... I'd like to see if Simmonds' attitude can rub off on him a bit. Schenn just seems happy to be out there.

As I've said, I'd trade JVR in the right deal. And that deal might come up at this deadline before whatever modified NTC he has kicks in with the new deal. I'm not looking to jettison him for spare parts or because he's "disappointing."

Looking at the new deal, next year he "makes" $2.5M while his cap hit is $4.25M and he doesn't "make" more than $4M until the 14-15 season. In terms of compensation, if he continues to improve I think his deal might turn out fine.

As it is, I think the Flyers have two of the top five players that came out of that draft in JVR and Voracek (along with Couture, Kane and Gagner(?)) and I'm looking to see JVR play with more consistency and confidence as he continues to mature.

[canoli]

Ugh, dental work...yeah, I've had my share - hope it goes well for you.

That last post of yours strikes me as reasonable - trade him in the right circumstances - like anyone - but don't rush to move him.

There's a story today on philly.com about how the Flyers need JVR to get back to the form he showed last April. Not very enlightening since it's old news and we've been saying that for months now - but it was nice to see some focus on the guy. Maybe it helps him take his NHL career more seriously - who knows? All we know is that so far this season (except for the Chi game) he's not playing with anywhere near the same drive and emotion he showed then.

How long do you wait for a guy to "get it," to understand he has to skate with energy and purpose to be successful in the NHL? Because JVR is naturally gifted do you wait longer and hope he eventually delivers, rises to his potential? Or is the leash shorter because you (rightly) expect bigger things from him sooner rather than later?