JagerMeister Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 The hype is real, after attaining the 500 goal milestone. Ovechkin fans have proclaimed him as the greatest goal scorer of all time. These are the most prevalent arguments I have seen thus far. 1. Ovechkin is playing in the lowest scoring era of hockey and the fastest while Wayne Gretzky played in a league were 50 goals was common. And played in a league the average player was worse. **** defensive systems, **** goalies. 2. Ovechkin would absolutely dominate if you insert him into the 80s..... Yeah, I have defended Ovechkin on numerous occasions on this site. He will inevitably be a top 5 goal scorer imo. HOWEVER, I am exhausted from seeing the denigration of Gretzky's accomplishments for these arguments. Is that supposed to somehow diminish what Gretzky has achieved? Look at the precentages he has over second place where he leads the league in scoring. Yes, it was a league where the average player was worse, less effective defensive systems. Blah Blah Blah. But is that suppose to make Gretzky worse? He did what he did in his era, and absolutely dominated, to an extent Ovechkin never did. Hell, they are essentially downplaying all the past greats. Richard, Bossy, Lemieux... Also, argument 2 is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. Have Gretzky be born the same year as Ovechkin, and he also benefits from the superior nutrition, training regimes, and all the innumerable amount of variables one has to account for. This can be said for every player that played in the 80s. One doesn't just have a significant increase in aptitude as decades pass, its the technological advances. I apologize if my thoughts are incoherent, but for ****sake I have been awake for 22 hours and I am infuriated with the **** I read in recent Ovechkin vidoes on youtube. Atleast provide statistics for your argument. Because all of these are straight up comparisons, and that's just moronic to straight up compare players. Domination over peers needs to be taken account, and a shitton of other stuff too... Good night folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 People who never saw Gretzky say Ovechkin is the best. Caps fans say he is the best. Russians say he is the best. People who actually remember Gretzky don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPuk Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: People who never saw Gretzky say Ovechkin is the best. Caps fans say he is the best. Russians say he is the best. People who actually remember Gretzky don't. Right on the mark @flyercanuck. Best ever was Gretzky by a mile - in any era. But I have no doubt that those who are saying Ovechkin is the greatest scorer ever believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 20 hours ago, JagerMeister said: I apologize if my thoughts are incoherent, but for ****sake I have been awake for 22 hours and I am infuriated with the **** I read in recent Ovechkin vidoes on youtube. Atleast provide statistics for your argument. Because all of these are straight up comparisons, and that's just moronic to straight up compare players. Domination over peers needs to be taken account, and a shitton of other stuff too... Good night folks. Not to worry. If you want to silence the Ovechkin fanboys, simply point out that Gretzky also made a habit of getting 150 assists in a season too -- while he was scoring 90+ goals. If Ovechkin would pass the puck sometimes and get more points, it would become a more intriguing argument. As it stands, it's like comparing Brett Hull to Wayne Gretzky. Both were great goal scorers, but Hull didn't do anything else other than score goals. All that being said, when you compare eras, there's a good case to be made that Ovechkin scores at a Gretzky/Lemieux like level. He is no doubt one of the best goal scorers in the history of the game. Every 50 goal season that Ovie gets today is like an 80 goal season back in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 If gretzky played today, he would probably score 100 goals in a season...easily this argument is nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/15/2016 at 8:48 AM, CoachX said: If gretzky played today, he would probably score 100 goals in a season...easily this argument is nonsense You cant truly believe that, Goal scoring has depleted astronomically since the 1980s. Larger equipment and a more effective style that allows less goals for goaltenders, more efficacious defensive systems implemented. And now, the average player is better. Wayne Gretzky would remain the best player in present league, but 100 goals is inconceivable and absolute lunacy. What argument is nonsense? I was refuting the arguments that other players have made to proclaim Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/15/2016 at 8:01 PM, WordsOfWisdom said: Not to worry. If you want to silence the Ovechkin fanboys, simply point out that Gretzky also made a habit of getting 150 assists in a season too -- while he was scoring 90+ goals. If Ovechkin would pass the puck sometimes and get more points, it would become a more intriguing argument. As it stands, it's like comparing Brett Hull to Wayne Gretzky. Both were great goal scorers, but Hull didn't do anything else other than score goals. All that being said, when you compare eras, there's a good case to be made that Ovechkin scores at a Gretzky/Lemieux like level. He is no doubt one of the best goal scorers in the history of the game. Every 50 goal season that Ovie gets today is like an 80 goal season back in the 80's. Well we cant say for certain. However, we do know 50 goals in the 80s is not equivalent to 50 goals in present time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And we do know that Gretzky used to put up almost double the points that the next leading scorer on his team did...and Ovechkin sits 3rd on his team this year. Last year he was first...by 3 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Even strength goals per 60 minutes played...NHL career Ovechkin 1.33 on Presidents Trophy winning Capitals McDavid 1.47 19 years old on worst team in hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPuk Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Ovechkin blows......? Mwahahahahaha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Here's my two cents... Ovi is certainly in the conversation. He's one of only seven players to lead the league in goals five times, and is about to become one of only three to do so at least six times. He's on the list of 60-goal scorers despite the fact that it has become so hard to do that. His 2007-08 season is the second best adjusted goals season in NHL history. He has three of the 34 seasons that hockey-reference.com acknowledges as being 60+ goal seasons in that stat. That said, yes, you do have to consider the era for some of the gaudy numbers of the 80s, but those 80 and 90 goal seasons of Gretzky's were ridiculous. The fact that he and Bossy both managed nine 50-goal seasons and five 60-goal seasons is incredible. The eight guys who have scored 70+ in a season deserve plenty of credit too. Of course, not all of them are in this discussion *cough* Bernie Nicholls *cough*, but even if it is era-related, they've still done something Ovi hasn't. Then there's the fact that guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, and Howe managed to accomplish their goal-scoring feats while not being so one-dimensional. About a year ago, I made a top 10 goal scorers list that had Ovi at fifth. He'd probably still be on the list, but I don't think he'd be so high. When I joined this board about a year and a half ago, I was just getting into my hockey history study, and at this point, my perspectives of many things have changed. Ovi is high on the list, as I've said, but #1? No, not yet. He has more work to do in mind mind, especially considering that it's pretty much his full game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 @ScottM Actually, now that I have become more informed myself I agree more so with your original ranking. Raw stats are in favour of Bossy, but all variables considered I think Ovechkin exceeds him in regular season performance. Where Bossy wins in this regard is superior play of performances. Adjusted stats are nowhere near perfect and should rarely be used to compare players. However, using raw stats to compare players from 2 eras of vastly different fluctuation in scoring is an even less accurate way of comparison. And even with all of that, there is more in depth statistical data that supports Ovechkin as the better goal scorer. In that department, he is closer to Gretzky then he is Bossy imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holtbeast Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I am a Capitals fan and I love Ovie and for sure he is a pure scorer. I don't remember much about Wayne Gretkzy since I was only 7 years old when he retired and I didn't pay attention that much back then. There is a reason why both these players have the word "Great" when naming them. There is "The Great One" in Wayne Gretkzy who from video I see as the more complete player and then "The Great 8" in Alex Ovechkin who is a pure scorer and really benefits from one of the best passers and puck handlers in the league right now Nicklas Backstrom. As a scorer after he hangs it up I may call Ovie the best scorer of all time, but the best overall player will remain Wayne Gretkzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh30 Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Ovechkin is a great scorer and has a very strong shot that is obvious, but it is way too early to anoint him as the great scorer of all time. You have scorers like Gretzky, Brett Hull, Gordie Howe just to name a very few that I would say is ahead of him at this point of his career. I do think he will be in the conversation by the time his ends his career for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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