Time to Trade Simmonds

[Howie58]

For the sake of argument and because I genuinely believe it, I think it's time to trade Simmonds.  Yes, the guy who scored our only goals last night. 

I think we saw what he is: a "garbage collector."  Yes, he is great from within 10 feet of the goal.  But he needs creative players around him to cycle and/or pass so he can put the puck in the net.  His goal differential is a whopping +6.  I would rather have a first rounder or super-promising prospect.  The Wayne Train may be a great competitor, but he isn't what we need.  We need talented playmakers (Why can't we draft and sign a Barkov)?  We need another Ghost...or a porch clearer.  I doubt Simmonds' value will ever be higher.  He has given us a good return since the trade...now let's cash in.  

Peace,

Howie

[flyercanuck]

If someone blew me away with an offer, i'd take it. 

Simmonds may not be the highlight reel type player that we'd all love to have. But those garbage goals he scores count every bit as much as any other. And when this team finally starts making the playoffs next year, you need Simmonds grit and those goals to help move on.

As for Ghost, it's great that we have him. Sanheim is a similiar player, bigger, maybe not quite as flashy. Provorov is going to be the best defencemen the Flyers have in a few years, and may well make the team next season as a 19 year old. He's just rock solid at every single aspect of the game. Hopefully Morin continues to develop into a mean sob porch clearer who can actually skate.

[intheslot]

Great Idea throw in G and maybe they can get some top notch forwards and draft picks ... 

 Would have to blow off the socks to trade either .. ...

 I'd say no way ..

 

[Howie58]

23 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

If someone blew me away with an offer, i'd take it. 

Simmonds may not be the highlight reel type player that we'd all love to have. But those garbage goals he scores count every bit as much as any other. And when this team finally starts making the playoffs next year, you need Simmonds grit and those goals to help move on.

As for Ghost, it's great that we have him. Sanheim is a similiar player, bigger, maybe not quite as flashy. Provorov is going to be the best defencemen the Flyers have in a few years, and may well make the team next season as a 19 year old. He's just rock solid at every single aspect of the game. Hopefully Morin continues to develop into a mean sob porch clearer who can actually skate.

Dear FC:

He may be a punished fraction of what he is now.  I get the assets and run. We need speed and skill more than grit.

 

Howie

[flyercanuck]

Thanks to one of the best contracts in hockey...Simmonds should have great value each and every year of it. 

Again, if someone blows me away, I'm listening. I'm just not in a rush to deal one of our best goal scorers, one of our best team players, about the only guy who will stick up for any team against anyone, and a great contract at a fairly young age.

[Howie58]

FC:  Agreed with everything you say. That's why he may fetch a lot. It's sad that this team's current assets worth trading are so few and far between. Sam Donnellon's piece in the Inquirer today sums up my sentiments about the team....essentially un-watchable past two lines....or as one of our colleagues on the board says, a good bad club that performs well on occasion.  I have long-term faith in Hexy's model.  But the rebuild may be longer and deeper than any of us imagined a year or so ago.  

Howie

[J0e Th0rnton]

59 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

For the sake of argument and because I genuinely believe it, I think it's time to trade Simmonds.  Yes, the guy who scored our only goals last night. 

I think we saw what he is: a "garbage collector."  Yes, he is great from within 10 feet of the goal.  But he needs creative players around him to cycle and/or pass so he can put the puck in the net.  His goal differential is a whopping +6.  I would rather have a first rounder or super-promising prospect.  The Wayne Train may be a great competitor, but he isn't what we need.  We need talented playmakers (Why can't we draft and sign a Barkov)?  We need another Ghost...or a porch clearer.  I doubt Simmonds' value will ever be higher.  He has given us a good return since the trade...now let's cash in.  

Peace,

Howie

Is this a joke post?

Edit: I say this because Voracek and giroux are, errrr, fairly talented playmakers. You have no goal scorers

[JackStraw]

Every team needs a good power forward and Simmonds is one of the best, especially considering his contract. The Flyers have two of the best playmakers in the league in Giroux and Voracek. Offensively Couturier is more playmaker than scorer. And on the blue line you have Ghost, Streit, and MDZ, all of whom generate scoring opportunities. With Provorov and Sanheim on the way. If anything, the Flyers need more pure goal scorers. I would have to be REALLY blown away to think about trading Simmonds, and if he is traded then you need to find another guy who score the dirty goals. And those types become even more important in the playoffs.

[Howie58]

1 minute ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Is this a joke post?

Joe:

I haven't taken more than a few sips of wine...No, no joke.  I appreciate the guy...and everything FC says is true. But Simmonds is not going to add value to other players. He is not a skilled center or crafty winger.  If we could draft a Barkov-type player with a pick, I say bye to Wayne, not because he is in anyway "bad," but he is what he is.  It is two or three years before this team is top 10, maybe elite. I suspect G and V will be diminished. And for all we know, Simmonds becomes a LeClair who is pummeled to lower production.  I'd take the "money" and run.

Howie

[J0e Th0rnton]

25 minutes ago, JackStraw said:

Every team needs a good power forward and Simmonds is one of the best, especially considering his contract. The Flyers have two of the best playmakers in the league in Giroux and Voracek. Offensively Couturier is more playmaker than scorer. And on the blue line you have Ghost, Streit, and MDZ, all of whom generate scoring opportunities. With Provorov and Sanheim on the way. If anything, the Flyers need more pure goal scorers. I would have to be REALLY blown away to think about trading Simmonds, and if he is traded then you need to find another guy who score the dirty goals. And those types become even more important in the playoffs.

This.

 

And I am not a flyer fan. But it just baffles my mind that someone wants to add a 3rd playmaker at the expense of the only real goal scorer and none in the pipelines. It is like trying to have all Bishops on the 2nd line in chess instead of.Knights and rooks to boot.

[canoli]

7 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

not because he is in anyway "bad," but he is what he is.

but "what he is" is pretty valuable don't you think? Even if the Flyers were in fire-sale mode with an eye on 3 years from now...i.e. starting over he'd be one of the last guys I'd move. Eventually you'll need a guy who does exactly what he does; sets up shop 3 feet outside the crease, creating scoring chances and banging home goals.

[brelic]

The truth is we are 7 points from a playoff spot, and 7 points from dead last in the NHL. Right now, we would pick 7th overall.

Lucky 7s all around, right? Ha!

Honestly, if you trade Simmonds, that probably brings us closer to picking 4-5 overall. Is it worth it? Depends on who you pick up there (and if you've added another 1st rounder in the trade, and any prospects/roster players). I would definitely trade him if an offer too good to refuse comes along... but in the end, we really really need pure goal scorers. And while Wayne is not a sniper, he's a garbage collector - the only one we have - and we have nothing in the pipeline. Aube-Kubel and perhaps Lindblom are the only goal scorers we have, and they are a crapshoot to make the NHL. If they don't crack top 6, I'm not sure how much value they have as bottom 6 players, you know what I mean? 

Maybe, just maybe, guys like Straka and Martel can pan out. They are both goal scorers, but haven't really sniffed the NHL yet. 

 

[RJ8812]

Simmonds is the only player on our team that is underpaid....

why trade him? Unless its a huge over payment, you do not move him

This team is already soft enough with Simmonds in the line-up 

[Howie58]

I will grant you Herr Simmonds' pay is reasonable by Flyers standards.

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/philadelphia-flyers/wayne-simmonds/

But what happens in 2-3 years when the contract ends?  He may be "overpaid" if relatively damaged goods.  An incremental first rounder may help a lot by that stage.  Coots was such a pick.  Again--I like the guy.  I just think he may be "the wrong guy" at this stage of our development.  RJ--the team is "soft" but it's understaffed/talented too. I think we can draft character guys.  Get one of Tallon's assistants from my neighboring Panthers to help Hexy.  
 

[flyerrod]

There is no way I move Simmonds unless it was for Macdavid or Eichel and neither one is going to happen. Before we go trading away one of the top 3 guys, I want to rid this team of Umberger/Schultz and see what happens. If the Flyers manage to move, or even just bench those 2 for a stretch of ten games, you will see a different team.

[jackhole]

Plus, I think it should be stated that Simmonds is a really good character guy.  Team 1st every time, good with fans, good with kids.  A guy who will mature into a leader that this team is going to need when all of the youth starts making the team.  And what a great role model for young African American kids to see a hockey player that looks like them.  He's all heart and he's good for the soul of flyerdelphia. 

[ruxpin]

Hi Howie,

Kudos on standing in there and taking some heat.

I'm on the fence here primarily because I hear what you're saying and it makes some sense to me.  But I also get the character, power forward, goes into dirty area that the others are saying.

Here's the thing:  He's a known commodity and brings some skill at what he does.  It would definitely be risky to trade that for a "what if" at the draft pick/prospect roulette wheel.  So that's where I fall on "stick with him."  Especially given the contract.

However, the contract + what he brings would be a very attractive commodity at the deadline.  Typically, you don't want three more years on a contract at the deadline, but at below a $4M cap hit for him I don't think that will matter.   We have some people who aren't signed next year, but they're of the Gagner, Raffl, White variety where you're saying "who?" about 45 minutes after they leave.   

So...If you can get a first round pick and a prospect for him at the deadline and then use that money plus the money released by VLC and Schenn for a top 6 winger, you've improved the team.   The fact is, no one else on the team is going to get that kind of immediate value.

I just talked myself into doing it for--like @flyercanuck and @JackStraw said--for the right deal.

[ruxpin]

If we're going to trade Simmonds and get a first rounder (is that realistically overpaying?), can it be to a team that is adding in an attempt to make the playoffs?  Not to someone doing it for a Cup run?   This way the draft pick is 16-20 rather than 26-30?

[Howie58]

Rux:

I didn't expect brownie points with this post.  And I have to pinch myself to agree with my own medicine.  WS is an excellent player and yes...a real role model, per Jackhole's comment.  

If we fetch a first + "other" I think a reasonable GM has to consider moving him given the deep, deep doo we appear to be in.  At some points during the past few weeks we may have thought, "well, let's get rid of the waste material, get one or two picks, and one or two of the farm hands, and we will be on our way." I am not so sure.   Agreed our D may be in the making...but very unsure about the rest.

Howie

[OccamsRazor]

36 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

If we're going to trade Simmonds and get a first rounder (is that realistically overpaying?), can it be to a team that is adding in an attempt to make the playoffs?  Not to someone doing it for a Cup run?   This way the draft pick is 16-20 rather than 26-30?

I t would have to be for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than a 1st round pick.......it would have to be a blow me away haul.

I mean Simmer is tied with G with the team lead in goals...14........and is costing 4.3mill less a year...for 3 more years after this...that in itself is priceless.

[Howie58]

My Gamecock Colleague:

He is cost-effective, but may get worn out/depleted by the time he gets support staff who can complement his strengths. We have some good farm hands but how many will realistically make it from LVH?  

Kopecne may be our next Simmonds.  More importantly--I watch a team that probably needs half to .66 of its roster "made redundant" as the Brits would say.  We need lots of high draft picks to aim for a REAL contender in a two-three year period.  

For the record--only one glass of wine so far.  I am reasonably clean and sober, and not mentally impaired..

Howie

 

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

My Gamecock Colleague:

He is cost-effective, but may get worn out/depleted by the time he gets support staff who can complement his strengths. We have some good farm hands but how many will realistically make it from LVH?  

Kopecne may be our next Simmonds.  More importantly--I watch a team that probably needs half to .66 of its roster "made redundant" as the Brits would say.  We need lots of high draft picks to aim for a REAL contender in a two-three year period.  

For the record--only one glass of wine so far.  I am reasonably clean and sober, and not mentally impaired..

Howie

 

Ok i'll start the bidding.......Nick Ritchie AND Shea Theodore for Simmer.........and we can work from there....

[ruxpin]

26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I t would have to be for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than a 1st round pick.......it would have to be a blow me away haul.

I mean Simmer is tied with G with the team lead in goals...14........and is costing 4.3mill less a year...for 3 more years after this...that in itself is priceless.

Yeah, I hear you.   Thus, the fence.  By the way, I was horribly unclear. I didn't mean just a first rounder, but that's definitely what it sounded like.  No.  I need prospect(s) with it.  I was asking if a first rounder being included was overpaying, but that was foolish.  It's not.   So, 2 first rounders in 2 consecutive years and a prospect?  Or 1 first round pick and two fairly decent prospects (prospect can, in this case, include a first or second year NHLer that is cheaper, but I'd rather go with 2 younger guys and a pick or 2 picks and a younger guy).  And I still have money to go shopping (no, I have no idea what is actually out there.  Stamkos? LOL).

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

1 first round pick and two fairly decent prospects

YES!!! It will have to be an overpay.

9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Nick Ritchie AND Shea Theodore

Nick and Shea are a good start.

[aziz]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Agreed our D may be in the making...but very unsure about the rest.

my problem is that by moving simmonds for a pick/prospect, you are making the rest even more unsure.  right now, you have a strong garbage goal player with a solid handful of intangibles, not a world beater or someone that elevates everyone else's games, but valuable for all that.  trade him for, say, a #8 pick, and now you have nothing but "potential".  moved a known for an unknown.  and then, after 4 or 5 years, you realize you drafted alex burmistrov or alex picard or zach hamill (all #8 picks), and basically just flushed the "known" down the toilet.

you trade players you have no interest or ability to keep for picks.  redundant players, players that don't fit the team's style, players on expiring contracts you can't resign.  you don't trade actively important and productive pieces for picks.  you are just creating a hole you have no assurance the return will even begin fill.  you don't move contributing assets just for a spin of the pick/prospect wheel, because you walk away empty handed as often as not.

if its decided simmonds doesn't fit, for some reason, then you move him for a piece that does.  a roster player of known ability that will plug a recognized gap in the roster.  picks and prospects are only for pieces you actively don't want or need and can afford to throw away on a gamble.  unless you are trading with a lottery winner and there is an amazing talent waiting at that first overall spot.  i don't think that is in the discussion here, though.