eleven24 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Ghost is currently 8th in rookie scoring despite having played 20+ fewer games than the current leading scorer, Artemi Panarin. If one projected out Gostisbehere's PPG, he would be just 6 points behind the leading rookie scorer. Keep in mind that Panarin is a forward playing for the Blackhawks, who as a team have scored 147 goals this year. Meanwhile, Gostisbehere is defenseman on a team that has scored just 109 goals this year. Yes, there are others like the all too easy to pick Eichel, but Ghost certainly deserves some serious mention as a ROTY candidate. Especially if he keeps this pace up. Odds are he won't get strong consideration because he's not playing on a team that is a contender for the Cup. I'm not saying Panarin isn't a very good player, but he's also in a far better situation where he can put up those numbers. Ghost has breathed life into an otherwise stagnant team, in just 29 games. Without Ghost, the Flyers are 6-11-1. With Ghost they are 15-7-7. For a rookie, that speaks volumes & I doubt any of the other rookie of the year candidates have had such a profound impact on their team as Ghost has here in Philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 @eleven24 No doubt Shane Gostisbehere has been a breath of fresh air for the Flyers, but good luck having him translate that into a Rookie of the Year award, or even in the top 3 for consideration. Not that I don't think he is deserving mind you (the arguments you made were pretty sound), but its the same ol, same ol regarding these types of awards...you know, the best DEFENSEMAN usually doesn't win the Norris, it's the D-man that scores the most points, the MVP award usually doesn't go to the guy who is the most valueable to HIS team, but rather the guy who blew away everyone in production, etc, etc... So the same will apply with the ROY award. While I fully agree what Gostisbehere has done in the shorter amount of time in the NHL is very impressive, the bottom line is he is still NOT the top rookie producer (yes, that is currently Panarin), and it really doesn't matter whether one player is on the Blackhawks and the other is on the Flyers. An award won't be given on what a guy is going to 'project', but rather what he has actually done, and in the case of the ROY award, Panarin, followed closely by Jack Eichel are the top two rookie producers. And behind them, you have currently Larkin, Domi and Duclair. All of which posses half a point a game or better. The one thing, as you already mentioned that stands out for Gostisbehere above all those guys is the fact that he is a defenseman, but I still don't think that will garner him ROY status based on his position. And if you want to talk about "doing more with less", sure, Panarin has a pretty comfortable environment to work in, and one could say to a degree that Larkin is in a better situation that many of the rookies as well.....but look at Eichel in that mess that is the Buffalo Sabres, and look at Domi and Duclair on an Arizona team that MANY picked to be if not dead last, pretty close to it in the West. Yet those guys are producing at good paces for their rookie campaigns....and still have more bottom line production overall than Gostisbehere at this point in time. But you know, Gostisbehere has about 30+ games to try and make things close, but at the end of the day, I honestly think the top three guys considered are going to be Eichel, Panarin, and Larkin. Maybe, MAYBE...if either Duclair or Domi run off a tremendous streak in the remaining games....they will be included in that conversation as well. Outstanding year so far for your guy, Ghost (and good times ahead for Philly with him on board), but ROY? Likely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 It depends on where he finishes out in the points column, but one thing he does have going for him is his PPG number, which is third among rookies (not counting Hudon's 2A in 2g) behind Panarin and McDavid. If he keeps his clip up, and all else remains equal amongst the rookies, he'll find himself 5th in points behind Panarin, Eichel, Domi, and Larkin. That will give him a god case. I just don't know that anyone is going to beat out Panarin with the season he's having. He could certainly be a finalist, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 5 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: @eleven24 No doubt Shane Gostisbehere has been a breath of fresh air for the Flyers, but good luck having him translate that into a Rookie of the Year award, or even in the top 3 for consideration. Not that I don't think he is deserving mind you (the arguments you made were pretty sound), but its the same ol, same ol regarding these types of awards...you know, the best DEFENSEMAN usually doesn't win the Norris, it's the D-man that scores the most points, the MVP award usually doesn't go to the guy who is the most valueable to HIS team, but rather the guy who blew away everyone in production, etc, etc... So the same will apply with the ROY award. While I fully agree what Gostisbehere has done in the shorter amount of time in the NHL is very impressive, the bottom line is he is still NOT the top rookie producer (yes, that is currently Panarin), and it really doesn't matter whether one player is on the Blackhawks and the other is on the Flyers. An award won't be given on what a guy is going to 'project', but rather what he has actually done, and in the case of the ROY award, Panarin, followed closely by Jack Eichel are the top two rookie producers. And behind them, you have currently Larkin, Domi and Duclair. All of which posses half a point a game or better. The one thing, as you already mentioned that stands out for Gostisbehere above all those guys is the fact that he is a defenseman, but I still don't think that will garner him ROY status based on his position. And if you want to talk about "doing more with less", sure, Panarin has a pretty comfortable environment to work in, and one could say to a degree that Larkin is in a better situation that many of the rookies as well.....but look at Eichel in that mess that is the Buffalo Sabres, and look at Domi and Duclair on an Arizona team that MANY picked to be if not dead last, pretty close to it in the West. Yet those guys are producing at good paces for their rookie campaigns....and still have more bottom line production overall than Gostisbehere at this point in time. But you know, Gostisbehere has about 30+ games to try and make things close, but at the end of the day, I honestly think the top three guys considered are going to be Eichel, Panarin, and Larkin. Maybe, MAYBE...if either Duclair or Domi run off a tremendous streak in the remaining games....they will be included in that conversation as well. Outstanding year so far for your guy, Ghost (and good times ahead for Philly with him on board), but ROY? Likely not. @TropicalFruitGirl26, Killjoy!! I agree with you though. Individual awards are not what they used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 On 1/28/2016 at 5:59 PM, AlaskaFlyerFan said: @TropicalFruitGirl26, Killjoy!! I agree with you though. Individual awards are not what they used to be. @AlaskaFlyerFan Heh...not TRYING to be a buzzkill...just calling it like I see it. This is similar to the 2011-12 season. If I remember right, that was the year Gabriel Landeskog won the ROY, and while I won't say he wasn't deserving, personally, I thought Adam Henrique should have won it that year based on not only similar production to Landeskog, but also because he was on a lower profile Devils team with lesser offense, and he did other things better, IMO, than Landeskog, such as checking, taking and winning face offs, worked BOTH the PP and PK, and I even think his PPG was similar to Landeskog's. But NO WAY was Henrique going to win, despite the fact that he was most valuable and doing things with "less" playing on NJ, despite the fact that he was only a couple points off Landeskog's production pace, all the while doing a bunch of other things that the Colorado rookie simply did NOT do. And that was because Landeskog was technically the leading point getter, he was on a team that was winning at the time, and had a higher profile in Colorado than Henrique had in NJ. Other competitors that year for ROY were RNH, Colin Greening, Matt Read, and Carl Hagelin if memory serves. That was all I was trying to say with regards to Gostisbehere. Unfortunately for him, the profiles of Jack Eichel and Panarin are much higher due to their status (Eichel being a highly touted draft pick, and Panarin, of course, playing on the Hawks), and the fact that they are still actually ahead of Ghost in the production standings. Oh and I COMPLETELY forgot about Connor McDavid (go figure!), because he has been injured...but you wanna bet that despite his shortage of games played, if Connor comes back and starts lighting things up that HE won't get consideration over a guy like Ghost? Probably. I honestly wish the awards went to the guys they are supposed to, but then, this is the same league that brings us that grand spectacle that is the All Star Game every year, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 8:51 PM, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: Oh and I COMPLETELY forgot about Connor McDavid More goals and points than Mcjesus????!!!!!!! ROTY all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poconono Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Larkin will win the Calder in a runaway. The kid is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Ghost has been a great addition to the Flyers. I don't think he has a prayer winning the Calder, but it would be nice if he got a mention, which he well may. Panarin presently has 46 points...Eichel 34 Larkin 33. Unless Panarin gets injured I don't see him not winning. Of course Mcdavid likely would have already wrapped this up if he didn't...but he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 It would be nice...but I suspect the kid will be happy to have a successful recovery from ACL repair. And his success is a bright spot in an otherwise mediocre season. Bigger picture--he's a reminder that Pryor and staff have some clue about their business. Hopefully they'll recruit some more like him in the next few years to join the stable at LV. Howie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 On 1/30/2016 at 11:40 AM, flyercanuck said: Ghost has been a great addition to the Flyers. I don't think he has a prayer winning the Calder, but it would be nice if he got a mention, which he well may. Panarin presently has 46 points...Eichel 34 Larkin 33. Unless Panarin gets injured I don't see him not winning. Of course Mcdavid likely would have already wrapped this up if he didn't...but he did. Despite Panarin's scoring dominance, Larkin's all around game is amazing. HOWEVER, The Wild Card is Ghost being a D man. Ghost already has a better Points per game than Larkin and he's about a tenth of a point off Panarin's pace. Larkin's +/- is amazing though. I know folks here hate +/- as a stat but when you've got a rookie at +24, it indicates at the very least that you've got something very special on your hands. also of note, maybe it's changed since this thread was started, but as of now, Ghost is not 8th in rookie scoring, he's tied for 6th. As long as he stays healthy and keeps up what he's doing he'll be in the hunt as there isn't another D man anywhere close. No matter what, when you watch him play it's quite apparent, the kid is something special and a totally next level player for the entire league to take note of. Everyone knows he's special too. He's the kind of player that can change not just A game, but who could change THE game. Now if he can just be safe and take care of his knees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 @King Knut I agree with everything you said in your post. And I think Larkin is just a great player. Another thing you didn't mention is Larkins age compared to Panarin...I mean how much further along is Larkin going to be in FIVE years...where Panarin now sits agewise. And as you mentioned, Ghost is a defenceman. I just think too many voters are going to see the points and give Panarin the trophy...it's the way of the NHL now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamflyers Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 3 hours ago, King Knut said: He's the kind of player that can change not just A game, but who could change THE game. This is where I think he deserves a serious look as ROY if he continues to play the way he has thus far. He is a game changer. He had an immediate impact on his team and he continues to do so. He may not put up the point totals that the forwards will, but consideration needs to be given for how much he matters to his team. In other words, what kind of void would he leave if he was not in the line up? As we know, he leaves a large void when he is not there. Unfortunately, I don't think the voting looks at things with that kind of logic, but if it did, he would be a serious contender if he manages to stay healthy and continue on his current pace. No matter what, he has turned a lot of heads and brought some excitement back to a rather dull team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 17 hours ago, Adamflyers said: No matter what, he has turned a lot of heads and brought some excitement back to a rather dull team. I feel like the same could be said of Ghost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleven24 Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 22 hours ago, King Knut said: I know folks here hate +/- as a stat but when you've got a rookie at +24, it indicates at the very least that you've got something very special on your hands. I've always suggested that a player's plus/minus is more an indication of the team a player plays on rather than and individual metric. As such, a better indicator would be a ratio of a player's plus/minus versus the team's plus/minus. As it stands now the plus/minus would look like this: Panarin +7 Gostisbehere +5 Larkin +24 If you just look at even strength each team's overall plus/minus then you would be Chicago +16 Philly -11 Detroit +2 Now apply that to each player and adjust the plus minus Panarin is -9 in relation to his team's plus/minus Gostisbehere is +16 Larkin is +22 To me, the stat is more telling than the plus/minus in the way it currently is because it doesn't allow a good player on a bad team to be of no comparison to a bad player on a good team. Obviously, arguments can be made that the stat isn't always accurate and I'd agree. It's just a different way of looking at things - and it certainly tells me that Larkin is doing more with less than Panarin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamflyers Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1 hour ago, King Knut said: I feel like the same could be said of Ghost! That's who my post was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleven24 Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 22 hours ago, King Knut said: HOWEVER, The Wild Card is Ghost being a D man. ....... also of note, maybe it's changed since this thread was started, but as of now, Ghost is not 8th in rookie scoring, he's tied for 6th. As long as he stays healthy and keeps up what he's doing he'll be in the hunt as there isn't another D man anywhere close. This is really my point here. Ghost is a defenseman and is now 6th in rookie scoring, despite having played 20+ less games. If he keeps this pace up, there will be many reasons why he could be in the discussion when it comes to ROY nominees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamflyers Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 9 minutes ago, eleven24 said: This is really my point here. Ghost is a defenseman and is now 6th in rookie scoring, despite having played 20+ less games. If he keeps this pace up, there will be many reasons why he could be in the discussion when it comes to ROY nominees. I agree. There is no reason why he should not be in the ROY discussion as a serious contender if he keeps up his current pace and if the Flyers continue to benefit from his contributions the way they have so far. It's hard to ignore the way he helped turn the season around and got the whole team playing better, just by virtue of his on ice talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 With a goal and an assist in Saturday's loss to the Rangers, Ghost now has a point streak ofseven games, the longest ever by a first-year Flyers blue-liner. Gotisbehere leads all NHL rookie defensemen with 26 points through 32 games (nine goals, 17 assists), and his points per game average of 0.81 is fourth among all rookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 The league loves defenseman that put up points and suck defensively. Just look at how the league treats Karlsson, Byfuglien and Subban Gostisbehere has this one in the bag!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Gostisbehere established a new record for the longest scoring streak by a rookie defenseman, surpassing a six-game streak by Dick Cherry in 1968-69. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Gostisbehere has a points per 60 minutes this season of 2.64. Not only is that the best rate this season, but it’s the best in the past decade. His goals per 60 minutes of 0.91 is the fifth best season in the past ten years among defensemen. data from: http://sonsofpenn.com/flyers/gostisbehere-best-scoring-rate-defenseman-history/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 @hf101 I find the idea of him winning unlikely, I don't exactly think the voters look at in depth context when determining the winner...Besides, they tend to be attracted to point production more often then not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I wonder how much better they would have been had he started the year on the Flyers........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 This kid will be even better when he gets/finds a steady partner...because MDZ ain't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: This kid will be even better when he gets/finds a steady partner...because MDZ ain't it. And even better when Philly can roll out him, Provorov and Sanheim. We might see the first pp ever with 3 defencemen on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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