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eleven24

Ghost as Rookie of the Year?

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1 hour ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

Ghost was named a finalist today along with Panarin and McDavid.

 

Not to shabby.

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If this were the "Most Valuable Rookie to his team" award, then hands down Ghost wins it.  Unfortunately, I think Panarin & McDavid are fighting for 1/2 with Ghost as 3rd.  I would hope though that those voting do look at the impact each player has had on his team and vote accordingly.

 

IMO, Panarin benefitted by having "other Pro" experience plus his point totals a bit inflated due to his line mates.  Consider the point production Ghost put up on a sub-par offensive team in comparison.  McDavid's PPG was certainly impressive, but his return to the lineup didn't exactly have an impact on the team's overall success.  I am hoping my opinion here isn't just biased because he's a Flyer and I got to see him play every game, but WHEN does a 23 year old kid step in and make such an impact as Ghost made this year?  ESPECIALLY while playing D.

 

If anything, the fact that he played D while putting up a PPG in the ballpark with Panarin and McDavid should gain him some votes.  Enough to win the award?  Probably not, but perhaps???

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Per

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  "To be eligible for the award, a player cannot have played any more than 25 regular season games previously in any single season, nor have played in more than six regular season games in each of two separate preceding seasons in any major professional league."  Wayne Gretzky was not eligible as an NHL rookie because he played in the WHA.  How does Panarin get a pass after playing over 6 years in the KHL?


Some have argued that the AHL is a professional league, and it is, but the average payroll of an AHL team is $1.5M, about 1/25th of the $36M salary cap (before exceptions) of the KHL.  And the AHL is a developmental league for the NHL, a subsidiary if you will.  And Panarin said he will be making pretty much the same money in Chicago as he was in the KHL... I don't think there are too many rookies in the AHL making $3.5 million.

 

But the NHL has declared him eligible, and so Panarin is.  I hope enough voters share my particular bias that Panarin this is NOT Panarin's first professional season as a hockey player.

 

McDavid's numbers per game were great.  But I do hold his lack of playing time against him; he missed almost half a season.  He didn't set any records and he didn't get his team into the playoffs. His ppg didn't even crack the top 10 all time.

 

Gostisbehere, however, DID set several rookie records, both franchise and league.  His presence was a major factor in getting his team into the playoffs.  How do you not give the trophy to the player that did things no rookie (a real rookie) has done before?

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, TedZep said:

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  "To be eligible for the award, a player cannot have played any more than 25 regular season games previously in any single season, nor have played in more than six regular season games in each of two separate preceding seasons in any major professional league." 

 

If the KHL and AHL aren't "major professional leagues," why even bother with that language?

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Not to be a complete and total dick, but Ghost didn't produce in the McDavid ballpark at all (nor would I expect a defenseman to do so).

 

Points/60 Minutes

McDavid: 2.75 (1st in NHL)

Ghost: 1.10 (14th among defensemen)

 

Even if you wanted to go back to Points Per Game, over 82 it's

McDavid: 87

Ghost: 59

 

Ghost's production was terrific but we have to rid ourselves of the notion that it was similar to McDavid's. That's hardly a knock on Ghost: no player in the NHL produced as much as the boy did, and he's a defenseman. Other than that, I wish we could really know what the Oilers record could have been, because the comparison just wouldn't make any sense: when McDavid came back to the lineup, the Oilers were missing Nugent-Hopkins, Klefbom, Pouliot, and Yakupov.

 

In the end, I can't think of the last time it went to a player that didn't put in a full season, so it's probably Artemi Panarin's to lose.

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, TedZep said:

McDavid's numbers per game were great.  But I do hold his lack of playing time against him; he missed almost half a season.  He didn't set any records and he didn't get his team into the playoffs. His ppg didn't even crack the top 10 all time.

 

Gostisbehere, however, DID set several rookie records, both franchise and league.  His presence was a major factor in getting his team into the playoffs.  How do you not give the trophy to the player that did things no rookie (a real rookie) has done before?

 

 

 

 

I have no problem with you feeling that Ghost should win. That's fine on it's own. But, now we've entered the realm of the ridiculous, where we hold Connor McDavid to a preposterous standard, saying that he shouldn't win the Calder because his "ppg didn't even crack the top 10 all time" when this is an era of historically low offense. Neither did Ghost's compared to defensemen either. Not even close. So what? None of these three players is competing against Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr or Joe Malone.

 

It's the same thing for the team records. All Connor McDavid had to do (apparently) was best Wayne Gretzky's offensive output when the average NHL game was seeing 7.02 goals per game compared to 5.3 today. Sounds easy to me.

 

For what it's worth, McDavid's share of Goals Created each night was BETTER than Gretzky's rookie year. So what? When it comes to voting for the Calder THIS YEAR, who gives a square sh|t? I have a strange feeling that when voters look at their ballots, they're not going see any names other than the three finalists.

 

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@JR Ewing

 

I have no beef with McDavid winning the Calder ..IF..IF...he would have done it over a whole year and not half a year.  Yeah it sucks he was injured...I get that that, but IMO he should not receive an award of this magnitude for playing in the least amount games.  He played in about half a season. (45 games).  No other major sports awards a player a season award for playing half a season.  That would be my only concern should he win. 

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1 minute ago, pilldoc said:

@JR Ewing

 

I have no beef with McDavid winning the Calder ..IF..IF...he would have done it over a whole year and not half a year.  Yeah it sucks he was injured...I get that that, but IMO he should not receive an award of this magnitude for playing in the least amount games.  He played in about half a season. (45 games).  No other major sports awards a player a season award for playing half a season.  That would be my only concern should he win. 

 

I agree with all of that. Connor McDavid was the best rookie this year, but he simply didn't play enough to win it. I've never made an argument for him winning. Ghost makes a similar (but weaker) case, but also didn't play enough to win it, victimized by the patience of Ron Hextall. The next best choice is Artemi Panarin, who only missed two games, and wound up 9th in scoring. I hate the idea of giving a rookie of the year award to a guy with almost 200 KHL games under his belt, but this is where we're at. He was terrific, but it just doesn't sit well with me.

 

According to Elliot Friedman:

"Really, really curious to see where McDavid finishes. I’ve only spoken to a few voters but they were serious about making him their choice. I get the logic. Of all the rookies, he’s the best. Pure talent, skill -- whatever. It’s McDavid."

 

Connor McDavid could win it, though I don't think he deserves to. If you’re a young player in the league and your name wasn’t Connor McDavid or Sidney Crosby when you got there, most likely you had to earn any respect you have twice before you got it once. This is the same in any industry, and probably not fair (as if fair has anything to do with reality).

 

If McDavid wins, that would be an example.

 

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1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

If the KHL and AHL aren't "major professional leagues," why even bother with that language?

 

How are they defining professional?

 

The definition of professional is "(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime."

 

Tell me, was Panarin's $3.5M paycheque in the KHL just part of a side gig for his real career as a welder?

 

It makes no sense. 

 

Panarin will win because of the flawed eligibility. McDavid would win hands down if he had played an extra 15-20 games.

 

It's an honour for Ghost to be nominated, and I hope it's a sign of great things to come. 

 

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McDavid should win the Western ROY and Gostisbehere should win Eastern ROY. Pannarin shouldn't qualify in my opinion. You can't compare numbers when they don't have the opportunity to play the same schedules.  The league could easily double up the  trophy winners. Just my two cents.

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19 hours ago, pilldoc said:

@JR Ewing

 

I have no beef with McDavid winning the Calder ..IF..IF...he would have done it over a whole year and not half a year.  Yeah it sucks he was injured...I get that that, but IMO he should not receive an award of this magnitude for playing in the least amount games.  He played in about half a season. (45 games).  No other major sports awards a player a season award for playing half a season.  That would be my only concern should he win. 

 

Ghost didn't do it a full year either. And he's 5 years older than McDavid. McDavid had the 3rd best PPG in the entire NHL...on one of the worst teams...at 18.

 

Both deserve it over Panarin though, IMO.

Edited by flyercanuck

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3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Ghost didn't do it a full year either.

 

Very true.  He played in 64 games (78% of the season), 18 shy of a full season and 21 more games than McDavid.  (45 games = 55 % of season).  IMO there is a big statistical difference in playing in 78% of a season vs 55%.  It gives a better greater body of work in which to be judged.  Had McDavid played in 64 games, IMO, there is no issue.

 

The accolades for Ghost are deserving so:

  • He finished top five in rookie scoring: as a defenseman.
  • An 11-game point streak is the longest by a rookie defenseman in NHL history.

 

I understand your point FC, but McDavid has to be judged upon more that just PPG.  The same can be argued for Ghost.  Ghost would have to be judged upon my more that the 2 points I listed above.  So lets compare last years Calder winner..Aaron Ekblad, who just also happens to to be a defenseman.

 

SEASON

 

TEAM

 

GP

 

G

 

A

 

P

 

+/-

 

PIM

 

PP

 

SH

 

GW

 

S

 

S%

 

2014-2015

 

PANTHERS (Ekblad)

 

81

 

12

 

27

 

39

 

12

 

32

 

6

 

0

 

4

 

170

 

7.1

 

2015-2016

 

FLYERS (Ghost)

 

64

 

17

 

29

 

46

 

8

 

24

 

8

 

0

 

5

 

152

 

11.2

 

 

Ghost (pro-rated)

 

81

 

21

 

36

 

57

 

10

 

30

 

10

 

0

 

6

 

192

 

 

 

It is obvious, that Ghost outperformed last years winner while doing it in 17 less games. (yeah I know it kind of proves your point also, but I contend playing in 78% of the season's games is more significant than only playing in 55% of the season.)

 

What it does prove is what an outstanding season Ghost truly did have!!!

 

EDIT:  I might add that he did all this after being a year removed from a severe ACL injury for which he will be the Flyers Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy nominee.

 

McDavid had a great half season ...however Ghost had an equally impressive year as a defenseman especially when comparing Ghost to last years winner Ekblad.

 

Edited by pilldoc
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8 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 So lets compare last years Calder winner..Aaron Ekblad, who just also happens to to be a defenseman.

 

 

And he won it against two forwards as well...Mark Stone and Johnny hockey!!!

 

Mark Stone 80 gp 26 gls 38 ast 64 pts +21 (6 GWGs)

 

johnny Gaudreau 80 gp 24 gls 40 ast +11 (4 GWGs)

 

Sorry biased or not my vote goes to the defenseman and what he did to turn his team around and carry them to the playoffs.

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13 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

Very true.  He played in 64 games (78% of the season), 18 shy of a full season and 21 more games than McDavid.  (45 games = 55 % of season).  IMO there is a big statistical difference in playing in 78% of a season vs 55%.  It gives a better greater body of work in which to be judged.  Had McDavid played in 64 games, IMO, there is no issue.

 

The accolades for Ghost are deserving so:

  • He finished top five in rookie scoring: as a defenseman.
  • An 11-game point streak is the longest by a rookie defenseman in NHL history.

 

I understand your point FC, but McDavid has to be judged upon more that just PPG.  The same can be argued for Ghost.  Ghost would have to be judged upon my more that the 2 points I listed above.  So lets compare last years Calder winner..Aaron Ekblad, who just also happens to to be a defenseman.

 

SEASON

 

TEAM

 

GP

 

G

 

A

 

P

 

+/-

 

PIM

 

PP

 

SH

 

GW

 

S

 

S%

 

2014-2015

 

PANTHERS (Ekblad)

 

81

 

12

 

27

 

39

 

12

 

32

 

6

 

0

 

4

 

170

 

7.1

 

2015-2016

 

FLYERS (Ghost)

 

64

 

17

 

29

 

46

 

8

 

24

 

8

 

0

 

5

 

152

 

11.2

 

 

Ghost (pro-rated)

 

81

 

21

 

36

 

57

 

10

 

30

 

10

 

0

 

6

 

192

 

 

 

It is obvious, that Ghost outperformed last years winner while doing it in 17 less games. (yeah I know it kind of proves your point also, but I contend playing in 78% of the season's games is more significant than only playing in 55% of the season.)

 

What it does prove is what an outstanding season Ghost truly did have!!!

 

 

 

 

Ghost brought life to the Flyers team. He helped make them a playoff team, and is definitely one of the fun guys to watch in this league. 

 

But if you're going to say McDavid didn't play enough games, can't the Panarin corner say the same about Ghost? Or do we draw the line where it conveniently suits us Flyer fans?

 

To me Panarin, as great as he is, played 6 seasons of pro hockey and had Kane playing next to him. He definitely had the most help, agewise and teamwise.

 

Ghost is next in that dept.

 

McDavid comes in at 18 on arguably the worst franchise in the league, and instantly is one of the games top players.  In fact, no one else won rookie of the month but him when he was healthy. Ghost and Panarin never won it at all. McDavid won it 3 times. 

 

My vote is Mcdavid, then Ghost, then Panarin. I'm not saying that's the only way to vote...just my opinion for the reasons I said. They are all very good players, even great. But McDavid is 18. He was 12 when Panarin got his first professional contract.

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The Flyers put together an awesome #GhostForCalder video

The Flyers put together an awesome #GhostForCalder video

 

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The legend of Ghostbear knows no bounds.

Philadelphia Flyers defenseman Shayne Gostisbehere was named a Calder finalist last night, along with Artemi Panarin of the Chicago Blackhawks and Connor McDavid of the Edmonton Oilers. He talked to the media shortly afterwards and 

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 for everything.

On Tuesday, the Flyers released an awesome video condensing Gostisbehere’s 17 goals, 29 assists, 15-game point streak and countless spins and dangles into a short 70 second video. It was an amazing season, take a look.

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 had a fantastic rookie season, and was one of the best rookie defensemen in the NHL in quite some time. He deserves the Calder Trophy.
 
Edited by OccamsRazor

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Ghost brought life to the Flyers team. He helped make them a playoff team, and is definitely one of the fun guys to watch in this league.

 

Totally agree! I can't wait to see how he improves upon this even more.

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

But if you're going to say McDavid didn't play enough games, can't the Panarin corner say the same about Ghost? Or do we draw the line where it conveniently suits us Flyer fans?

 

Again totally agree... 80 games vs 64 games.  At least Flyer fans can say Ghost play in 3/4 of the season which I think is important.  But Hawk fans would have a valid point.

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

To me Panarin, as great as he is, played 6 seasons of pro hockey and had Kane playing next to him. He definitely had the most help, agewise and teamwise.

 

Again no argument from this perspective....

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

McDavid comes in at 18 on arguably the worst franchise in the league, and instantly is one of the games top players.  In fact, no one else won rookie of the month but him when he was healthy. Ghost and Panarin never won it at all. McDavid won it 3 times. 

 

If McDavid was not injured for 1/2 the season then hands down McDavid wins.

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

My vote is Mcdavid, then Ghost, then Panarin

 

And my vote is Ghost / McDavid / Panarin .....even after taking off the O&B glasses for the reasons I stated.  IMO you just can't give a trophy to a player who only played for 1/2 a season.  What the NHL should do in the future is require a set number of minimum games for that season in which the player had to play in in order to be eligible for the award.  Then maybe it would avoid situations like we have this year.

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The thing is, Ghost's numbers are solid on their own, without extrapolating; he had a pretty good season in only 3/4s of a season.  McDavid only figures into the equation on a per game basis.  His accomplishments were recognized in being nominated, but he shouldn't be handed the Trophy merely on shoulda/woulda/coulda and potential.

 

Gostisbehere's offensive statistics are better than last year's Calder Trophy winner, also a defenseman, again without extrapolating a full season.  His defensive stats are almost as good. 

 

Shayne's rookie records stand alone and no other rookie can compare, even that 6 year professional rookie, nor that once in a generation rookie.  Any one could make him the most outstanding rookie this year, but three rookie records?  All the other rookies in the league combined for ... closer to zero than three.

 

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41 minutes ago, TedZep said:

The thing is, Ghost's numbers are solid on their own, without extrapolating; he had a pretty good season in only 3/4s of a season.  McDavid only figures into the equation on a per game basis.  His accomplishments were recognized in being nominated, but he shouldn't be handed the Trophy merely on shoulda/woulda/coulda and potential.

 

Gostisbehere's offensive statistics are better than last year's Calder Trophy winner, also a defenseman, again without extrapolating a full season.  His defensive stats are almost as good. 

 

Shayne's rookie records stand alone and no other rookie can compare, even that 6 year professional rookie, nor that once in a generation rookie.  Any one could make him the most outstanding rookie this year, but three rookie records?  All the other rookies in the league combined for ... closer to zero than three.

 

 

Ghost's offensive numbers were terrific this year, but he is NOT in the Aaron Ekblad range of playing defense, particularly when taking the age difference into account.

 

Goals Against, On/Off
Ekblad: 2.06, 2.37
Ghost: 2.32, 2.16

 

Scoring Changes Against Per 60
Ekblad: 20.5
Ghost: 28.8

 

High Danger Scoring Chances Against Per 60
Ekblad: 8.5
Ghost: 11.8

 

Shots Against By Zone, measured against league average
(You want negative numbers for these, as they show how many times more or less you surrender shots from a particular area of the ice. Zero is, obviously, league average. The most important area for a defenseman is limiting the number of home plate chances.)
Ekblad: Outside +0.397, High Slot -2.21, Home Plate -1.88
Ghost: Outside -0.357, High Slot -4.5, Home Plate +4.05

 

Ekblad's defensive numbers at the age of 18 were better than Ghost's at 22. There's a big divide there. The Panthers were scored on a lot more while Ekblad was on the bench than while he was on the ice, and his own numbers for Scoring chances, High Danger Chances, and home plate chances were much less than Ghost. The home plate numbers can't be shocking for Ghost, given his lack of size. He can learn some tricks as he gains experience, but he can't learn to be a bigger man. I think Ghost is going to be a terrific player for a long time to come, but Ekblad's defensive game is especially advanced at a young age, especially in comparison.

 

Again, there are compelling reasons to vote for Shayne Gostibehere, but "ZOMG, he had THREE records! Three!!!" isn't a great one. Barry Beck's name wasn't on the list of player's eligible for the Calder this year, so while it's a great reason to say that Ghost had a better rookie year than him, it's not a great reason to swing a vote to him away from Panarin or McDavid.

 

Edited by JR Ewing

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@JR Ewing

 

That is a different perspective than what I was thinking.  Defensive stats vs Offensive Stats.  Although one could possibly argue that McDavid was a (-1) for the year and therefore a defensive liability. (I'm not advocating that at all).  Just saying there are different ways that different people will use to evaluate these players when voting for the Calder Trophy.

 

Regardless...as had been previous mentioned there are a lot young players in the league now which is going to be a pure joy to watch as they grow and develop.

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4 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

@JR Ewing

 

That is a different perspective than what I was thinking.  Defensive stats vs Offensive Stats.  Although one could possibly argue that McDavid was a (-1) for the year and therefore a defensive liability. (I'm not advocating that at all).  Just saying there are different ways that different people will use to evaluate these players when voting for the Calder Trophy.

 

Regardless...as had been previous mentioned there are a lot young players in the league now which is going to be a pure joy to watch as they grow and develop.

 

I agree with all of that, and I only mention the defensive numbers for Ghost and Ekblad because they were mentioned. As it pertains to Calder voting, I'm not interested in the differences in the defensive games of the two players, because it has nothing to do with this year's Calder.   :)

 

But yes, there are some great young players to watch.

 

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1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

Ekblad's defensive numbers at the age of 18 were better than Ghost's at 22. There's a big divide there.

 

 

Sure but who would you rather play with Andrew AHL Mcdonald (he had Del Zotto before injury and played a few with Medvedev and others)or Brian Campbell????

 

Even more impressive.......out producing him his rookie year in Ekblad's 2nd full season too.

 

So if you are going to say the partner doesn't matter....no point in bringing up the corsi i think.....this isn't in a vacuum.

 

Just Panthers over all blueline is way better.

 

Ekblad, Campbell, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Petrovic and Willie Mitchell hands down waaaaaay better than the Flyers top to bottom

Edited by OccamsRazor

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55 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

THREE records! Three!!!" isn't a great one.

 

 

Yes in this defensive era. Pretty impressive i say. 

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Yes in this defensive era. Pretty impressive i say. 

 

At no point did I say it's not impressive: I say that it's great evidence that Ghost's rookie year was better than Barry Beck's, but has not much of anything to do with Artemi Panarin or Connor McDavid.

 

While it's impressive, it's also trivia. Ghost had a longer point streak than Barry Beck. Great, but what does it have to do with voting? And, if we seek to use it as a reason to vote for a guy, then why does it never count against players at other times? "I'd like to swing a vote his way, but he didn't break the rookie record for most consecutive games with a point." or "He wasn't the best wide receiver because he didn't have as many rushing TDs as that halfback." You don't say? This is the sort of reasoning trotted out by fan ONLY when it's in the interest of their guy, and never against. It's that sort of selective reasoning which makes 3/4 of Hall of Fame discussions nauseating, and means the case of the player has more to do with the skills of the person making the argument than anything else, particularly when it's a record the other two finalists aren't even capable of equaling because they don't play the same position.

 

There's already enough good reasons to vote for Gostitsbehere without going to that place.

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25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Sure but who would you rather play with Andrew AHL Mcdonald (he had Del Zotto before injury and played a few with Medvedev and others)or Brian Campbell????

 

So if you are going to say the partner doesn't matter....no point in bringing up the corsi i think.....this isn't in a vacuum.

 

Just Panthers over all blueline is way better.

 

Ekblad, Campbell, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Petrovic and Willie Mitchell hands down waaaaaay better than the Flyers top to bottom

 

I agree that the Panthers have a better blueline. Full stop.

 

-Who had the lowest GA/60 on that blueline? Aaron Ekblad.

-Who had the biggest GA decrease when he set foot on the ice? Aaron Ekblad.

-Away from Ekblad, Campbell gave up 1.1 more GA/60 than when paired together. In fact, every defenseman other than Willie Mitchell gave up more goals away from Aaron Ekblad.

-Twenty men played at least a hockey game's worth of minutes with Ekblad last year. Eighteen of them gave up fewer chances against while doing so.

 

There are drivers and there are passengers. When you're a driver, your teammates do better with you than without. Defensively, Ekblad is not only driving the bus, but parking it and pumping the gas before the next shift starts.

 

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32 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 particularly when it's a record the other two finalists aren't even capable of equaling because they don't play the same position.

 

On also has to take into account that the streak itself was accomplished under different rules (3-on-3 OT) than the previous record-holder had. Likewise his record for OT goals.

 

This is particularly relevant for Flyers fans who saw Brodeur eclipse Bernie Parent's win total for a season after ties were eliminated from the game. Parent had 12 ties the season he had 47 wins (still the most in regulation 47-13-12). Brodeur was 47-23.

 

I like Gotstobehere and look forward to a productive Flyer career, but I agree that "setting records" isn't a solid foundation upon which to build a Calder Trophy resume.

 

Now, if the term was "Most Valuable Rookie" we might have a different discussion...

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    • 7
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        Ghost has been a big part of that incredible run. So I'd say he's deserving of whatever credit he's getting.
    • 6
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      You know, the other night I was leaving the local ice rink after practice and the game was on the TV in the lobby.  A parent of one of the kids I coach glances over and says "Ghost got another point tonight".  We then started talking about the kid, and how he has almost singlehandedly become the reason many are watching the Flyers again.  Just as we're saying that, Ghost makes a terrific defensive play by anticipating a pass, using his speed, and eliminating the chance the other way - all inside
    • 6
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      @OccamsRazor   You and your GIFs. You're a bit of a sick bastard eh?   NTTAWWT
    • 4
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    • 4
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      When Ghost made that deke move at the blueline and then rang it off the post with around 5min left vs Winnipeg last night, you could see the confidence in him.  Just after that, on the same shift, Ghost was carrying the puck through the neutral zone aggressively attempting to deke the opposing defenders.  It wasn't a mark of a new-to-the-NHL kid.  It was confidence.   Which is why it surprised me that Hakstol didn't get him right back out out on the ice.  Surprised me even more when du
    • 3
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      Ghost brought life to the Flyers team. He helped make them a playoff team, and is definitely one of the fun guys to watch in this league.    But if you're going to say McDavid didn't play enough games, can't the Panarin corner say the same about Ghost? Or do we draw the line where it conveniently suits us Flyer fans?   To me Panarin, as great as he is, played 6 seasons of pro hockey and had Kane playing next to him. He definitely had the most help, agewise and teamwise.

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