Are Benn and Seguin the leagues best duo?

[yave1964]

Right now in spite of a pedestrian defense and a pair of hold your breath every start goalies the Stars are sitting at 33-14-5 only 3 points behind Chicago for the best record in the Western Conference. The reason why is two fold:

  Jamie Benn and Tyler Seguin.

  with apologies to hired guns Spezza and Sharp and up and coming force from the blue line john Klingberg the dynamic duo are what makes this team go.

  "I shudder to think of where we would be without these two." Coach Lindy Ruff recently said in the understatement of the year.

  They sit 2nd and 3rd behind Patrick Kane in the scoring race. They are 3rd and 4th behind only Kane and Ovie in goals scored. In short, they are the Dallas Stars.

  But are they the leagues best duo?

  Here, in my mind, are the top candidates:

 

Ovechkin andKuznetsov. The Washington Russian Duo has been unstoppable this year with Kuznetsov leading the team in scoring and he is 5th in the league,  and Ovie 2nd in the league in goal scoring with 29.

 

Patrick Kane and Artemi Panarin. Kane leads the league in everything, goals, assists and points, while Panarin as a rookie has 50 points good for 7th in the league and seems to be a virtual lock for the Calder trophy as the leagues top rookie.

 Sid and Geno; Yes Crosby had a slow start but Geno is now 9th in the league in scoring and the kid has crept up to 46 points in 49 games, good for 13th. Both will likely finish in the top ten.

 

 
My money goes to the boys in Dallas, with the boys in Washington and then Chicago ranked 2nd and 3rd respectfully.

[ruxpin]

I go with Dallas.  Only because each brings fairly equal contribution and skills to the table.    

 

Nothing against Panarin (who I really like) and Kuznetsov (same), I think if you take away Kane and Ovie, respectively, their production dramatically drops.  Still good, but it drops.

 

That's not to say the other's numbers wouldn't suffer if either Benn or Seguin went down, but not as dramatically and either could carry a line that included an injury replacement (even if that wasn't Sharp or Spezza, et al.).    

 

So Dallas for me.

 

And I really hate you for this thread.  

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Hard to argue against the Stars combination.

I mean, that whole team is simply geared up for offense.

So not gonna even attempt to find a reason to pick another duo other than Seguin and Benn.

 

That said, with the way the Lightning have caught fire lately and starting to look very much like the Eastern Champs they are, I am hoping that either a duo of Johnson-Kucherov or Stamkos-Namestnikov can at least garner a mention in any conversations of 'dynamic duos' as the season winds down.

[JagerMeister]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I go with Dallas.  Only because each brings fairly equal contribution and skills to the table.    

 

Nothing against Panarin (who I really like) and Kuznetsov (same), I think if you take away Kane and Ovie, respectively, their production dramatically drops.  Still good, but it drops.

 

That's not to say the other's numbers wouldn't suffer if either Benn or Seguin went down, but not as dramatically and either could carry a line that included an injury replacement (even if that wasn't Sharp or Spezza, et al.).    

 

So Dallas for me.

 

And I really hate you for this thread.  

I don't think Kuznetsov's production declines as drastically as you think. He is out producing Ovechkin (51 to 43) and actually has on average 17.44 time on ice to Ovechkin's 20 minutes. In addition, Nicklas Backstrom has almost identical icetime to Ovechkin. So it seems to me that Backstrom is actually Ovechkin's line mate more regularly then Kuznetsov.

 

I still believe Benn and Seguin are the most effective duo, and I concur with Panarin regarding his production decline. In fact, Kane being his line mate is the primary reason for me to say he has not be the most impressive rookie of the year.

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, JagerMeister said:

I don't think Kuznetsov's production declines as drastically as you think. He is out producing Ovechkin (51 to 43) and actually has on average 17.44 time on ice to Ovechkin's 20 minutes. In addition, Nicklas Backstrom has almost identical icetime to Ovechkin. So it seems to me that Backstrom is actually Ovechkin's line mate more regularly then Kuznetsov.

 

I still believe Benn and Seguin are the most effective duo, and I concur with Panarin regarding his production decline. In fact, Kane being his line mate is the primary reason for me to say he has not be the most impressive rookie of the year.

 

 

I have to admit that I felt a lot more confident in my statement regarding Panarin than I did with Kuznetsov.  Leftwinglock supports your claim about Ovie/Backstrom vs. Ovie/Kuznetsov (by a LOT, actually).  So, you're right that Kuznetsov probably doesn't decline much at all except maybe in a small amount if someone moves up a line to replace Ovie (if he were hurt) and that would somehow affect chemistry on Kuznetsov's line.  But there's a lot of moving parts there and not the direct effect I was thinking.

 

Good call.  We still agree, though, that it's Benn/Seguin.

[aziz]

7 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Nothing against Panarin (who I really like) and Kuznetsov (same), I think if you take away Kane and Ovie, respectively, their production dramatically drops.  Still good, but it drops.

 

That's not to say the other's numbers wouldn't suffer if either Benn or Seguin went down, but not as dramatically and either could carry a line that included an injury replacement (even if that wasn't Sharp or Spezza, et al.).    

 

 

to me, if the question is "best duo", then the combined production is what you need to look at.  and seguin/benn have 55 goals between them.  kane/panarin are at 49, and ovechkin/kuznetsov 44.  it isn't really even all that close.

 

what would happen if the pair were separated for some reason seems beside the point in the "best duo" conversation.  individually, benn and seguin are very good players, but nothing completely spectacular.  once they were put together, though, they became way more than the sum of the parts.  "who has the most talented two forwards" is a different question, and not one dallas would win.  kane and ovechkin are far enough above benn and seguin individually that i don't think dallas would even be in the conversation.  pittsburgh would get a mention, as would tampa, along with washington and chicago.  the two together, though, are a combination no one else can touch at the moment.

 

i can't think of any other situation over the years of two second tier forwards having that kind of elevating chemistry together.  dallas has a very rare thing going on.  would be terrifying if they had even similar quality with the rest of their roster.

[JagerMeister]

2 hours ago, aziz said:

 

to me, if the question is "best duo", then the combined production is what you need to look at.  and seguin/benn have 55 goals between them.  kane/panarin are at 49, and ovechkin/kuznetsov 44.  it isn't really even all that close.

 

what would happen if the pair were separated for some reason seems beside the point in the "best duo" conversation.  individually, benn and seguin are very good players, but nothing completely spectacular.  once they were put together, though, they became way more than the sum of the parts.  "who has the most talented two forwards" is a different question, and not one dallas would win.  kane and ovechkin are far enough above benn and seguin individually that i don't think dallas would even be in the conversation.  pittsburgh would get a mention, as would tampa, along with washington and chicago.  the two together, though, are a combination no one else can touch at the moment.

 

i can't think of any other situation over the years of two second tier forwards having that kind of elevating chemistry together.  dallas has a very rare thing going on.  would be terrifying if they had even similar quality with the rest of their roster.

Hmm, not certain if this is entirely true. Didn't Jamie Benn start accumulating the most points to be in consideration for the Art Ross during Tyler Seguin's absence the previous year? And perhaps they are exceptional players that coincidentally had their prime years coincide with one another? They are after all, ages 26 and 24.

 

Also, production wise they are the best. But doesn't Jamie Benn also play with his brother? That's an advantage that shouldn't be disregarded.

[aziz]

15 hours ago, JagerMeister said:

Hmm, not certain if this is entirely true. Didn't Jamie Benn start accumulating the most points to be in consideration for the Art Ross during Tyler Seguin's absence the previous year? And perhaps they are exceptional players that coincidentally had their prime years coincide with one another? They are after all, ages 26 and 24.

 

Also, production wise they are the best. But doesn't Jamie Benn also play with his brother? That's an advantage that shouldn't be disregarded.

 

i'm not sure what you mean by seguin's absence the previous year...you mean last year?  he missed 11 games, total, last season.  or...the year before he went to dallas?  benn scored 33 in 41 that year, good enough to be tied for 56th in the league.  as for the two hitting their peak at the same time, that could be.  no real way to tell outside of splitting them up again, but from what i've seen, the things they get done together happen because of how they work together, not any individual crosby level of amazingness.  benn's brother is on the team, but i'm not sure a 20 point defenseman has a whole lot to do with his little brother's production.

[JagerMeister]

7 hours ago, aziz said:

 

i'm not sure what you mean by seguin's absence the previous year...you mean last year?  he missed 11 games, total, last season.  or...the year before he went to dallas?  benn scored 33 in 41 that year, good enough to be tied for 56th in the league.  as for the two hitting their peak at the same time, that could be.  no real way to tell outside of splitting them up again, but from what i've seen, the things they get done together happen because of how they work together, not any individual crosby level of amazingness.  benn's brother is on the team, but i'm not sure a 20 point defenseman has a whole lot to do with his little brother's production.

The year Jamie Benn won the art ross, he started accumulating points enough to be in consideration for the Art Ross when Tyler Seguin was injured last year. It was unanticipated to say the least. Idk, I just recall people being rather surprised.

[aziz]

15 hours ago, JagerMeister said:

The year Jamie Benn won the art ross, he started accumulating points enough to be in consideration for the Art Ross when Tyler Seguin was injured last year. It was unanticipated to say the least. Idk, I just recall people being rather surprised.

 

he had a run of 11 points through the 10 game stretch seguin missed in late february.  so, yes, he did really well there.  still, was only 2-3 weeks, i'm not convinced he'd average anything close to that if, say, seguin were traded away.

 

also, your sig is wrong: pens fans aren't allowed opinions, either.  kind of especially, really.

[JagerMeister]

5 hours ago, aziz said:

 

he had a run of 11 points through the 10 game stretch seguin missed in late february.  so, yes, he did really well there.  still, was only 2-3 weeks, i'm not convinced he'd average anything close to that if, say, seguin were traded away.

 

also, your sig is wrong: pens fans aren't allowed opinions, either.  kind of especially, really.

we haven't actually witnessed a large enough sample size to see what they're capable of as individual players in their prime. So its rather difficult to rank them as individual's when their primes coincide with another.

[aziz]

9 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

we haven't actually witnessed a large enough sample size to see what they're capable of as individual players in their prime. So its rather difficult to rank them as individual's when their primes coincide with another.

 

true.  i'm kind of occam's razoring it a little, i guess.  two very-good-but-not-elite players hitting their primes at the exact same moment exactly as they were put on a line together and suddenly becoming two of the best in the world literally overnight...or simply having their games and personalities mesh in such a way as to elevate their combined production beyond what they were previously capable of individually.  the latter seems more likely.  the former is possible, though.