jammer2 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 The way it's looking now, thank the good Lord the Flyers never forked over the required 5.5 mill a year for the services of Matthew Carle. What a quick and decisive fall from grace. This guy is supposed to be a 2nd pp qb, contribute points to make up for his lack of physicality etc....well, the stats speak for themselves....52 games played, 1 goal and 2 assists. Reduced to being the Bolts 6th man, 7th man or just a plain ol healthy scratch. At least his one goal was a game winner....lol. Thank GOD we did not get stuck with this stiff. One of Stevie Y's few mistakes. The expansion draft may not even help the Bolts rid themselves of this albatross. Not sure just how many games he was a healthy scratch, but I'm betting it was somewhere around 15 or so....WAY to many for a guy who makes the 3rd most on the roster.....pfffft, good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 6 hours ago, jammer2 said: The way it's looking now, thank the good Lord the Flyers never forked over the required 5.5 mill a year for the services of Matthew Carle. Yeah so they did something i think is arguably worse.............they forked over that contract to Mcdud....i would have prefered to have kept Carle knowing they were going to do something that stupid!!! I guess the only saving grace in that is at least Mcdud doesn't have a NTC.......or a NMC so they can banish him to the AHL again. But Carle's contract is only on the books for 2 more years after this one. Mcdud's is on the books for 4 more years after this one!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 I never really thought of it that way, but now that you wrote it, it seems SO true, if Carle was signed, McDudly do (no) right would never have been signed......AND no matter how bad Carle has regressed, would only be for 2 years of hell, not 4....even though Carle has really slipped, I'd still take him over the crap that is McCrap. I wonder if we can get TFG to weigh in here, cause I honestly have not seen enough of the Bolts to know, did Carle really slip, or is it a case of the Bolts just having 6 better defensemen at this time?....I figure the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 9 minutes ago, jammer2 said: or is it a case of the Bolts just having 6 better defensemen at this time?... Yes they do. As much as I did not like Carle, I would welcome him with open arms over MacDonald..........No matter how many different ways you look at it, the Macdonald contract offer was a head scratcher...even for Homer......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, flyerrod said: Yes they do. As much as I did not like Carle, I would welcome him with open arms over MacDonald..........No matter how many different ways you look at it, the Macdonald contract offer was a head scratcher...even for Homer......... Not only do we have stinky length and money.....but we actually had to pay draft picks for the right to get ripped off in a monumentally bad contract. Homer went so hard after this guy, you would think he's Serge Savard or something....lol. It's deals like this one that really tell the story of how far out of reality Homer really was compared to the other GM's in the league.....I'm sure many of counterparts laughed uncontrollably when the heard what he gave McDudly and what he paid to acquire him.....WTF....how do we get stuck with stiffs like this??? Of yeah, it's Mr.Snider and his tragic loyalty to anyone who donned a Flyer jersey.....what a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Great moments are made from great opportunity... There was a chance to see what the team that gave us "the shift" coulddo. We will never know that. And just because players didn't live up to that in other situations isn't an indication of what WOULD have happened otherwise. I wouldn't have given Carle $5.5M but there's no definitive indication he would have required that to stay. By all accounts, he was never even offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 13 hours ago, radoran said: By all accounts, he was never even offered. No, because of the silly offer sheet business on Weber and the timing of it all. The only advantage that Carle ever had over anyone was his relative mobility. He has few other traits worthy of mention. Horrible shot. I assume the game caught up and surpassed him like it does with everyone who gets older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 17 minutes ago, Podein25 said: No, because of the silly offer sheet business on Weber and the timing of it all. The only advantage that Carle ever had over anyone was his relative mobility. He has few other traits worthy of mention. Horrible shot. I assume the game caught up and surpassed him like it does with everyone who gets older. Wasn't it Parise and Suter? Not that I wouldn't want to have Suter over Carle, but both had pretty much made it known they weren't interested in Philadelphia. So Homer put his FAs on hold chasing that dragon. And they've got one round of playoffs since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, radoran said: Wasn't it Parise and Suter? Not that I wouldn't want to have Suter over Carle, but both had pretty much made it known they weren't interested in Philadelphia. So Homer put his FAs on hold chasing that dragon. And they've got one round of playoffs since. Right, Parise and Suter. Weber was out of the picture by then, or something. God it sucks getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 17 minutes ago, Podein25 said: Right, Parise and Suter. Weber was out of the picture by then, or something. God it sucks getting old. You mean "what a drag it is getting old" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 On 3/20/2016 at 0:41 AM, jammer2 said: What a quick and decisive fall from grace. i don't know how quick it was. carle left 4 years ago. this year and last, he has fallen off a cliff, but the two previous were at least respectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 3 hours ago, aziz said: i don't know how quick it was. carle left 4 years ago. this year and last, he has fallen off a cliff, but the two previous were at least respectable. I don't argue any of that, but usually, when you add a 5 million dollar piece to your team, you would kinda hope for more than 2 respectable years and 2 YUCH years. Just glad it was them and not the Flyers. Really, this is the culmination of a great debate on this forum. The people that wanted Carle gone, thought he was uber soft and prone to brutal breakdowns at real bad times....they were right. The side that said his skill set for lugging the puck and respectable offensive prowess....well, they came down on the wrong side of the argument....at least that is the way I see it. Like I said, glad it was the Bolts and not the Flyers.....unless you go down the path that if we had Carle, we would not have McDud.....and I can't argue with that either.....either way, the Flyers seemed destined to get burned for 5mill + due to putting the wrong man in charge....and he was put in charge by Snider....it all comes from the top and his love for his Flyer cronies. I think that sums the whole thing up nicely....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, jammer2 said: I don't argue any of that, but usually, when you add a 5 million dollar piece to your team, you would kinda hope for more than 2 respectable years and 2 YUCH years. Just glad it was them and not the Flyers. Really, this is the culmination of a great debate on this forum. The people that wanted Carle gone, thought he was uber soft and prone to brutal breakdowns at real bad times....they were right. The side that said his skill set for lugging the puck and respectable offensive prowess....well, they came down on the wrong side of the argument....at least that is the way I see it. Like I said, glad it was the Bolts and not the Flyers.....unless you go down the path that if we had Carle, we would not have McDud.....and I can't argue with that either.....either way, the Flyers seemed destined to get burned for 5mill + due to putting the wrong man in charge....and he was put in charge by Snider....it all comes from the top and his love for his Flyer cronies. I think that sums the whole thing up nicely....lol. If they had signed him for $4M and won a Cup, it would have been fine. As it is Carle played in a Cup Final and the Flyers have one round of playoff hocjey since he left. #wonthedeal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, radoran said: If they had signed him for $4M and won a Cup, it would have been fine. As it is Carle played in a Cup Final and the Flyers have one round of playoff hocjey since he left. #wonthedeal He still sucks. I'd be willing to bet my left nut that the Bolts could have plugged in many other cheaper options and still made the final, hell....without Carle maybe they win the cup. In that long playoff run, Carle had a measley 3 assists, no goals....and was a steller -10. That is pretty damn sad. He did not have a good playoff for the Bolts that year, in fact, I'd be willing to say they made the finals in spite of Carle, not because of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 10 hours ago, jammer2 said: He still sucks. I'd be willing to bet my left nut that the Bolts could have plugged in many other cheaper options and still made the final, hell....without Carle maybe they win the cup. In that long playoff run, Carle had a measley 3 assists, no goals....and was a steller -10. That is pretty damn sad. He did not have a good playoff for the Bolts that year, in fact, I'd be willing to say they made the finals in spite of Carle, not because of him. Sure, but we're still in opinions and what would haves as opposed to firm facts. To be clear, I don't much like Carle. But he was part of a team here that achieved more than any team since he left has. That's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, radoran said: Sure, but we're still in opinions and what would haves as opposed to firm facts. To be clear, I don't much like Carle. But he was part of a team here that achieved more than any team since he left has. That's a fact. We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, cause from I sit, the facts on that playoff run....25 games, 0 goals 3 assist, -10.....that is factually stinky...lol. Based on those stats, I don't see how anyone could call his playoff run solid, or even respectable. I know you are a master at keeping things in context, so following that vein of thinking....the "best Flyer team" that Carle was part of only existed as a playoff entity due to Claude Giroux's shoot out goal on the final play of the 2010 regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 13 hours ago, jammer2 said: The people that wanted Carle gone, thought he was uber soft and prone to brutal breakdowns at real bad times....they were right. The side that said his skill set for lugging the puck and respectable offensive prowess....well, they came down on the wrong side of the argument....at least that is the way I see it. disagree there, too. those who wanted to keep carle around on a 4+ year deal were wrong, but that is really all i think you can say. a 2 year deal would have given you a decent middle pair guy. i don't know a 2 year deal was possible, but the broad sweep of "he sucks now so anything at all 4 years ago would have been wrong" is wrong. look, the guy is now 31, will be 32 at the start of next season. a good rule of thumb, for me, is all bets are off when a player hits 30. if you sign a 28 yearold to a 6 year deal, you potentially made a big mistake. that doesn't mean it would have been the same mistake to sign that 28 yearold to a shorter term contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 19 minutes ago, aziz said: disagree there, too. those who wanted to keep carle around on a 4+ year deal were wrong, but that is really all i think you can say. a 2 year deal would have given you a decent middle pair guy. i don't know a 2 year deal was possible, but the broad sweep of "he sucks now so anything at all 4 years ago would have been wrong" is wrong. look, the guy is now 31, will be 32 at the start of next season. a good rule of thumb, for me, is all bets are off when a player hits 30. if you sign a 28 yearold to a 6 year deal, you potentially made a big mistake. that doesn't mean it would have been the same mistake to sign that 28 yearold to a shorter term contract. I don't believe a 2 year deal was possible. He was a d-man with playoff experience (at least that is how is agent sold him) in the prime of his career. No way, no how does an agent agree to anything but a long term deal....with long term security. Why would Matt and his agent even entertain such a thought as a 2 year deal?....he had the leverage. The deal he signed with the Bolts will be the best and longest in his career, and the one his family will be counting on for decades to support them. He *might* eek out another deal, but he will be what....34 then? If I'm Matt and I have this knowledge, I instruct my agent to get max money for max years for max security....any other play is just not smart. There was never a short term option...it was all in....for a long contract. The Flyers saw something in the bride that left them with a sour taste, and promptly left him at the proverbial alter. Bottom line for me, anybody forking out long term money for this guy was and is a sucker. I knew it back then, and it rings so true today....just cause you got 2 decent years out of the deal does not make it a successful venture....not even close. The only reason he was worth anything was his status as 2nd pp qb type thing....now that is gone. Never EVER got the Carle love. One of the softest players in the league....very prone to late game brain farts that were costly....never made the team tougher to play against, never gave full effort, never got the maximum out of his talent, rarely even took a hit to maintain possession. Sure he lugged the puck up the ice with some consistancy, but unless you can do that fetching popcorn, that skill is a waste also. You should never invest long term in a one trick pony....and that is just what Carle was....the only thing I was wrong about was it taking 24 months to come out fully. Having a 5mill+ a year defensemen sitting in the press box cause your other 7 dmen are better is a HORRIBLE deal, no mater how you slice or dice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 20 minutes ago, jammer2 said: We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, cause from I sit, the facts on that playoff run....25 games, 0 goals 3 assist, -10.....that is factually stinky...lol. Based on those stats, I don't see how anyone could call his playoff run solid, or even respectable. I know you are a master at keeping things in context, so following that vein of thinking....the "best Flyer team" that Carle was part of only existed as a playoff entity due to Claude Giroux's shoot out goal on the final play of the 2010 regular season. OK, but I'm talking about 2012 - as I referenced earlier in the thread. For me, the mistake was not simply reloading that gun instead of heading out into the wilderness searching for dragons. We don't know where that team would be now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, radoran said: OK, but I'm talking about 2012 - as I referenced earlier in the thread. For me, the mistake was not simply reloading that gun instead of heading out into the wilderness searching for dragons. We don't know where that team would be now. See, I was right, I knew you would put it in the right context..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, radoran said: OK, but I'm talking about 2012 - as I referenced earlier in the thread. For me, the mistake was not simply reloading that gun instead of heading out into the wilderness searching for dragons. We don't know where that team would be now. I was under the impression "the shift" was done in the 2010 playoff season....but it would not be the first time my memory faltered. I know we played the Bruins and Habs that year....were the Pens part of the equation....or was that 2012? Confused a bit, without looking it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, jammer2 said: I was under the impression "the shift" was done in the 2010 playoff season....but it would not be the first time my memory faltered. I know we played the Bruins and Habs that year....were the Pens part of the equation....or was that 2012? Confused a bit, without looking it up. I believe "the shift" was in 2012 when they beat the Pens 4-2 in the first round. Before that they hadn't beaten the Pens in the playoffs since 2000. Again, this is more about team chemistry and continuity than it is "Matt Carle is teh greatest." (and if we're going to be all "20/20 hindsight" about it - the people who said Jagr was "done" and "finished" were undisputably wrong....) That said, as with many Homeriffic trades, I would rather have had the 1st rounder they gave up to get Eminger (John Carlson) who they then traded (along with another first rounder - Steve Downie) for Carle. And I put this all on the "won the moves" banner - where since 2010 the Hawks have two more Cups, the Kings have two as well and the Bolts went to the Finals while the "won the moves" Flyers have five playoff rounds in five years. I really don't care about "winning the deals" with those sorts of results. I'd rather win on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 hour ago, jammer2 said: I don't believe a 2 year deal was possible. He was a d-man with playoff experience (at least that is how is agent sold him) in the prime of his career. No way, no how does an agent agree to anything but a long term deal....with long term security. Why would Matt and his agent even entertain such a thought as a 2 year deal?....he had the leverage. that's fine, then you don't sign him to a more-than-two-year deal. that doesn't mean that the people that wanted to see him in a flyers' uniform for a few more seasons were wrong. the fact the ideal contract was not possible, and the only available option was unacceptable, doesn't change that he was a decent mid-roster defenseman up until two years ago. i don't think there was ever any "love" for carle, but there was realization that ~40 point defensemen are not common and have value if used appropriately. i'm not sure why you are trying to win a carle argument from 4 and 5 years ago. he was never anyone's favorite defensemen, but he did bring something not a ton of other guys did. a 6 year deal to a middling 28 yearold is a bad move, but that is entirely because you cannot have any idea what it is you have committed your team and cap space to a few years down the road. that a player can go from kinda ok to terrible over the length of that contract doesn't mean he should have been avoided for the entire length. as to why matt and his agent would have even entertained a 2 year deal....they probably wouldn't have. so you walk away. again, that doesn't mean that it was wrong to have thought the flyers would have benefited from 2 years. 'course, if all GMs in the league stop being stupid and giving guys entering the "he's going to fall apart at some point and there is a good chance it will be during this contract" deals, the idea of sane terms to past-prime players might actually come to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, aziz said: the fact the ideal contract was not possible, and the only available option was unacceptable, doesn't change that he was a decent mid-roster defenseman up until two years ago. ... as to why matt and his agent would have even entertained a 2 year deal....they probably wouldn't have. so you walk away. again, that doesn't mean that it was wrong to have thought the flyers would have benefited from 2 years. It's a known unknown - but there wasn't even apparently an offer. Now, were there "discussions" with the agent that outlined potential parameters? Probably. And if the agent was saying "$5+ for 5" then you obviously walk away (from him and the two first rounders you gave up to get him). But if Homer was saying (as he did to Jagr) "sit tight and we'll get back to you after we find out if Suter/Parise are coming" then that's a different situation. Might it have been possible to lock up Carle for less money and slightly less term? We'll never know. But if you let a guy just walk onto the open market, you more often than not never find out. Again, this was a team that had just put up 103 points and had a big first round win against the team with the second most points in the Conference before losing to the team that went to the Cup Final. It's really might not have taken a six year, $5.5M deal to get him to stay with that team instead of a deal that had him going to the Eastern Conference's #10 team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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