Is Jagr now #2?

[ScottM]

 

This season has certainly been a significant one in the career of Jaromir Jagr. The milestones he has reached this season include becoming the second-oldest forward to ever suit up in the NHL, becoming the league's third all-time leading goal-scorer, and reaching third all-time in points. Lest it seem like his accomplishments are those of a compiler, I should also mention the fact that he has five scoring titles, five 100-point seasons, seven first team all-star selections, three MVP seasons (counting both Hart and Pearson Trophies), and is one of only 20 players to score 60 goals in an NHL season. Combining the individual season and career accomplishments, I have to ask: has Jagr reached second place among right wingers?

 

In writing this post, I'm automatically assigning first place to Gordie Howe. He has stats that I believe clearly top everyone else at the position in both season and career performances, and that gap only grows if you include his AHL years. He's one of only four players for which I think I could seriously consider an argument for being the GOAT, so he's off the table in my opinion. He's #1. After that, however, it becomes much cloudier. I think there are a handful of players that could make a claim for the spot, and it isn't necessarily easy to separate them.

 

The first I'll mention is Brett Hull. To some measure, part of his argument disappeared earlier this season when Jagr scored goal #742 and passed him on that list. However, the fact still remains that there was a stretch in his career that Brett Hull was one of the greatest goal-scorers in the history of the sport. That has to count for something.

 

Next, I'll bring up Guy Lafleur. In a lot of ways, Lafleur and Jagr seem somewhat similar to me statistically. Neither was ever really able to assert himself as his era's premier goal-scorer, but both are/were point machines, and both have three MVP seasons. Lafleur lacks the longevity of Jagr, but Jagr lacks the one goals title that Lafleur has.

 

What about Mike Bossy? Longevity is certainly not a point in his corner, but he was consistently and exceptionally good before injuries sidelined him. It surprises me that he never managed to reach 70 goals, but he's tied with Wayne Gretzky for the most 50 and 60-goal seasons in NHL history. I can't help but wonder if he'd own those records all to himself if he had been healthier.

 

Finally, I'll mention Maurice Richard. The case here is obvious. He was the first player to score 50 goals in a season (famously doing so in 50 games, and the first to 500 goals, and had a mean streak as big as his abilities. While the consensus now is that Howe had the superior career, there was a time that you easily could have started a fight by suggesting to a supporter of one that the other was better.

 

So, where does Jagr rank? Does he beat any or all of the guys above? Personally, I think this season has been enough to bridge the small gap that I saw between Hull, Lafleur, and Jagr, and I think he has surpassed them. I think the battle against Bossy is pretty tight, and while I think Richard is still a little ahead, but another season or two like this one could change that. Wherever he's currently ranked, however, I hope that the level of greatness we are witnessing doesn't go unappreciated.

[BluPuk]

How did you decide on which uniform to show him wearing? I think he also holds the record for the most teams played for?? His name should be "$uitcase". ?

[JagerMeister]

 

22 hours ago, ScottM said:

The first I'll mention is Brett Hull. To some measure, part of his argument disappeared earlier this season when Jagr scored goal #742 and passed him on that list. However, the fact still remains that there was a stretch in his career that Brett Hull was one of the greatest goal-scorers in the history of the sport. That has to count for something.

Brett Hull will always be the greater goal scorer than Jagr, and Jagr will always be the superior offensive dynamo. Jagr eclipsed Hull as a player ever since his 5 art ross trophies and the plethora of assist and goal finishes he had accumulated by the age of 30. At that time, Jagr already paralleled Esposito.

 

22 hours ago, ScottM said:

Next, I'll bring up Guy Lafleur. In a lot of ways, Lafleur and Jagr seem somewhat similar to me statistically. Neither was ever really able to assert himself as his era's premier goal-scorer, but both are/were point machines, and both have three MVP seasons. Lafleur lacks the longevity of Jagr, but Jagr lacks the one goals title that Lafleur has.

Lafleur's goal title is insignificant when comparing the two, since Jagr had more than one occasion in which he was second to the leading goal scorer, what truly makes this a worthy comparison is Lafleur's irrefutably superior playoff performances. In contrast, Jagr has the moderately better regular season career. I would ultimately say Jagr transcends Lafleur by an incredibly small margin because of his consistency as a top producer.

 

22 hours ago, ScottM said:

What about Mike Bossy? Longevity is certainly not a point in his corner, but he was consistently and exceptionally good before injuries sidelined him. It surprises me that he never managed to reach 70 goals, but he's tied with Wayne Gretzky for the most 50 and 60-goal seasons in NHL history. I can't help but wonder if he'd own those records all to himself if he had been healthier.

similar argument to that of Lafleur, except Bossy was evidently the superior goal scorer with even worse longevity and doesn't have the accolades. Even removing Gretzky from the equation, Bossy's hardware does not compete with either Lafleur or Jagr.

 

22 hours ago, ScottM said:

Finally, I'll mention Maurice Richard. The case here is obvious. He was the first player to score 50 goals in a season (famously doing so in 50 games, and the first to 500 goals, and had a mean streak as big as his abilities. While the consensus now is that Howe had the superior career, there was a time that you easily could have started a fight by suggesting to a supporter of one that the other was better.

 

 

22 hours ago, ScottM said:

So, where does Jagr rank? Does he beat any or all of the guys above? Personally, I think this season has been enough to bridge the small gap that I saw between Hull, Lafleur, and Jagr, and I think he has surpassed them. I think the battle against Bossy is pretty tight, and while I think Richard is still a little ahead, but another season or two like this one could change that. Wherever he's currently ranked, however, I hope that the level of greatness we are witnessing doesn't go unappreciated.

What Jagr is currently doing  exceeds everyone's expectations. But they are essentially complier seasons, and what he has attained in his 40s shouldn't have such significant impact in where you rank him. Unless you value longevity in higher regard than most. Imo, these questions should have been asked when he accumulated his final top ten point finish.

[JagerMeister]

7 hours ago, BluPuk said:

How did you decide on which uniform to show him wearing? I think he also holds the record for the most teams played for?? His name should be "$uitcase". ?

Im certain there are a myriad of teams that would have acquired him. He wouldn't be in Florida if money was his primary motivation. And he certainly wouldn't be playing...

[ScottM]

50 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

What Jagr is currently doing  exceeds everyone's expectations. But they are essentially complier seasons, and what he has attained in his 40s shouldn't have such significant impact in where you rank him. Unless you value longevity in higher regard than most. Imo, these questions should have been asked when he accumulated his final top ten point finish.

 

Longevity is always part of the calculus. For those lacking in the department, the question is, can their achievements overcome it? For those who have it, the question is did they remain effective, or did they simply take up space? Fifty-eight points certainly don't put Jagr in the current superstar category, but it's a far better total than most players, as is his 25 goals. Those 58 points are tied for his team's lead, and they're leading their division. That says a lot in my mind. He's certainly way down from his peak, but I wouldn't come close to saying that he's simply compiling now. It's far from the only piece of the puzzle, but playing this effectively at his age (especially seeing that only one other forward has ever done so) does contribute to his standing in my mind.

[Podein25]

I have come to love and respect Mr Jagr. Doing what he's doing is amazing. He loves and respects the game. And he wants to win so bad.

 

 

[ScottM]

I want to revisit this post. I was about to start a thread before I found this one. Looking at his career statistics and accomplishments, I want to pose the question again: Has Jagr passed Richard? I've come to the conclusion personally that if he hasn't yet, he's very close.

 

When it comes to goal-scoring, the Rocket is the man. He was the premier goal-scorer of his era, and arguably of all time. In fairness to him, he played in an era in which 600, 700, or 800 goals simply weren't possible. But even though I definitely think the Rocket is the superior goal-scorer of the two, let's not ignore Jagr's accomplishments there. He's one of only 20 players to score at least 60 goals in a season, and he has racked up 749 goals. It won't be easy, but when you look at his level last season, he proved that he's still quite capable of top notch play. It's not outside the realm of possibility for him to reach 800. If he played three more seasons (and he's determined to go as long as he can), and average 17 goals, he's there. Keep in mind, he's coming off of a 27 goal season.

 

In playmaking, Jagr's the winner. He has led the league in assists three times, and has five scoring titles. What's more, he seems like a lock to take over second place in points this season, since he only needs 19 to do so. Again, those kind of numbers weren't possible in Richard's day, but while 800 goals seems like a possibility for him in the right era, 1,800 points really doesn't. The Rocket was a goal-scorer plain and simple. Only four times did he finish in the top 10 in assists, so it seems very obvious that Jagr walks away with playmaking/overall scoring.

 

Now, let's look at awards and accolades. Both have plenty of first-team all-star selections, Richard with eight, and Jagr with seven. Jagr is, however, missing the six second-team all-star selections (one) that Richard has (six). On the flip side, Jagr has three MVP seasons, though he also has the advantage of having played in an era with the Pearson, which Richard did not. Both have one Hart, and in our modern perception of a finalist, both would have been finalists six times. Jagr does, however, beat Richard five to three in top two finishes. Splitting hairs? Maybe. But it could also show that he's deserving of a slight nod in the MVP category.

 

There is no doubt that Richard wins in the physical play comparison. We could share stories for ages about him and his on ice fisticuffs. Jagr, however, wins easily in the longevity department. He already has five years on Richard, and that's going to grow. Make of those two aspects what you will, but they both represent a part of their games that the other is missing.

 

The sum of it? Jagr has made up some ground in recent years with his longevity, and to me it looks like a pretty close battle. Which would you choose?

[JagerMeister]

I don't think they're near equivalents in the goal scoring department. Jagr was consistent ( as evidenced by his 15 years of 30 goals or more ) but really, his 700 goal achievement was a result of elite goal scoring and longevity. While Richard is among the top 3 greatest ever. So

 

And for playmaking, Jagr has had him beat there for quite a while now.

 

The tipping scale is playoff performances, Richard is irrefutably superior and it will stay as such until Jagr retires.

 

I don't see Jagr ever edging him out unless he does something completely unanticipated.

 

[ScottM]

59 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

I don't think they're near equivalents in the goal scoring department. Jagr was consistent ( as evidenced by his 15 years of 30 goals or more ) but really, his 700 goal achievement was a result of elite goal scoring and longevity. While Richard is among the top 3 greatest ever. So

 

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest they're close if it came across that way. Jagr is great, but as I said, Richard is very near the top, if not at the top. Still, the fact that Jagr could reach 800 is significant, since it has only been done twice.

 

1 hour ago, JagerMeister said:

The tipping scale is playoff performances, Richard is irrefutably superior and it will stay as such until Jagr retires.

 

I agree that Richard has the edge there, but let's be honest. Jagr hasn't been bad in the playoffs either. He has averaged 0.97 ppg. That's a bit of a drop from his 1.15 ppg regular season average, but far from shabby. At the same time, look at the cast of characters Richard had to work with throughout his career. I think we can all agree that the Habs were stacked for decades. Does that make up the gap? No. I'd still take Richard in the playoffs, but I think it might be tighter than you think with a close examination.

 

1 hour ago, JagerMeister said:

I don't see Jagr ever edging him out unless he does something completely unanticipated.

 

If he keeps mopping up milestones (second all time in points, 800 goals, 2,000 points, etc.), we have to come to the point that we say he has outperformed expectations. Where is that? I don't know. I'd dare say it's different for everyone. My definition and yours may not be the same. Just say he does meet his stated goal of playing until he's 50, and say he's still a significant contributor (which I wouldn't rule out after last season). He'd then be in Gordie Howe territory in that metric, and he'd be the only one besides Mr. Hockey to get there.

 

Anyway, I give you those challenges largely for the sake of discussion, because I really think this could be a very fun debate. With more consideration since my original post, I feel safe in saying that I'd now put Jagr above Bossy, and that in my mind the battle for second is between Richard and Jagr. Additionally, I'd dare say that I consider the battle for #2 among right wings to be the battle for #5 all-time period.

[JagerMeister]

Just now, ScottM said:

 

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest they're close if it came across that way. Jagr is great, but as I said, Richard is very near the top, if not at the top. Still, the fact that Jagr could reach 800 is significant, since it has only been done twice.

 

Just now, ScottM said:

 

 

I agree that Richard has the edge there, but let's be honest. Jagr hasn't been bad in the playoffs either. He has averaged 0.97 ppg. That's a bit of a drop from his 1.15 ppg regular season average, but far from shabby. At the same time, look at the cast of characters Richard had to work with throughout his career. I think we can all agree that the Habs

were stacked for decades. Does that make up the gap? No. I'd still take Richard in the playoffs, but I think it might be tighter than you think with a close examination.

Oh you're definitely correct, prior to his comeback in the NHL, he had 181 points in 169 games before his 3 year absence in the KHL. Despite that, Richard was almost always the best playoff performer in a stacked team.

 

Just now, ScottM said:

 

If he keeps mopping up milestones (second all time in points, 800 goals, 2,000 points, etc.), we have to come to the point that we say he has outperformed expectations. Where is that? I don't know. I'd dare say it's different for everyone. My definition and yours may not be the same. Just say he does meet his stated goal of playing until he's 50, and say he's still a significant contributor (which I wouldn't rule out after last season). He'd then be in Gordie Howe territory in that metric, and he'd be the only one besides Mr. Hockey to get there.

 

Just now, ScottM said:

Anyway, I give you those challenges largely for the sake of discussion, because I really think this could be a very fun debate. With more consideration since my original post, I feel safe in saying that I'd now put Jagr above Bossy, and that in my mind the battle for second is between Richard and Jagr. Additionally, I'd dare say that I consider the battle for #2 among right wings to be the battle for #5 all-time period.

 

I don't believe Jagr can ever surpass any of the big four. HOWEVER... as he plays more and remains an adequate contributor to his team, he gradually makes a more persuasive case for the 5th spot. I mean, there are many contenders for 5th, and he is starting to become one. All he has to do is solidify it.

[ScottM]

1 minute ago, JagerMeister said:

 

Oh you're definitely correct, prior to his comeback in the NHL, he had 181 points in 169 games before his 3 year absence in the KHL. Despite that, Richard was almost always the best playoff performer in a stacked team.

 

 

 

I don't believe Jagr can ever surpass any of the big four. HOWEVER... as he plays more and remains an adequate contributor to his team, he gradually makes a more persuasive case for the 5th spot. I mean, there are many contenders for 5th, and he is starting to become one. All he has to do is solidify it.

 

Yeah, the top four is an exceptionally difficult nut to crack. Off the top of my head, it would be hard to imagine what it would take. As far as active players, the only one I could think of that I think we've seen enough from is Ovi, and that's true only if he scores 700+, and even then only in the minds of those who overvalue goals at the expense of everything else. Personally, I don't think anyone in the post-Lemieux era has shown the kind of dominance needed to have a shot at that. If Crosby were at his best year in and year out, he might have had a shot, but he's too up and down from season to season and too injury prone in my book.

 

But, getting back to the two guys in question here, I'll be very interested to see what Jagr can do in the playoffs in the next couple of years on a Panthers team that I feel is on the way up. A couple of strong performances in deep runs could aid him in that category.

[WordsOfWisdom]

On 3/28/2016 at 4:34 PM, ScottM said:

I'm automatically assigning first place to Gordie Howe

 

To play devil's advocate for a moment........  

 

If we were to take Jagr and put him into the NHL of the 1950's where players skated half as fast as they do today, and where goalies didn't wear masks and couldn't move side to side in the net without falling over, he would skate rings around everyone else and might be sitting at 3000 points by now. Granted, he'd only be playing 48 games a season (or whatever the NHL schedule was back then) so that would reduce him to around ~1700 points. Aw shucks... I killed my own argument.   

[JagerMeister]

18 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

To play devil's advocate for a moment........  

 

If we were to take Jagr and put him into the NHL of the 1950's where players skated half as fast as they do today, and where goalies didn't wear masks and couldn't move side to side in the net without falling over, he would skate rings around everyone else and might be sitting at 3000 points by now. Granted, he'd only be playing 48 games a season (or whatever the NHL schedule was back then) so that would reduce him to around ~1700 points. Aw shucks... I killed my own argument.   

I know you're joking. But the bolded is illogical. Of course you insert modern Jagr into the 1950's, he would have a substantial fitness advantage, and all the knowledge of the previous hockey generations. Now, if he were to be born in the same time period as everyone that played in the 1950's. That would be an equal playing field, all he would have to rely on is his innate talent.

 

I mean, do you think the subsequent generation is inherently more talented? perhaps, but technology, fitness is exponentially improving. That, and they possess the knowledge of the previous generations.

Additionally, they inherit the genes of the generation that also had the aforementioned advantages of their time.

[WordsOfWisdom]

14 hours ago, JagerMeister said:

Now, if he were to be born in the same time period as everyone that played in the 1950's. That would be an equal playing field, all he would have to rely on is his innate talent.

 

Then he'd be stuck in communist Czechoslovakia trying to escape, and he'd never play in the NHL.

 

(Don't mind me, I'm having fun.) 

 

Does Jagr have a son? Shouldn't he be playing in the NHL by now? If anyone could have a father/son NHL duo, that would be the one.

[JagerMeister]

1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Then he'd be stuck in communist Czechoslovakia trying to escape, and he'd never play in the NHL.

 

(Don't mind me, I'm having fun.) 

 

Does Jagr have a son? Shouldn't he be playing in the NHL by now? If anyone could have a father/son NHL duo, that would be the one.

Lol, thats true. 

And no, jagr has no children nor does he have a wife. Instead, he spends his time revitalizing himself in the fountain of youth... In other words, screwing 18 year old girls.

[ScottM]

One more thing about a 1950s Jagr: Gordie Howe would have half-killed him like he did just about everyone else in his era.

 

Of course, I'm half-joking there, but I don't think he could have established the same dominance that Howe did, because Howe was a physical freak for his time. It was not only his skill but his physical ability that put him on his throne, and I just can't believe Jagr would have excelled in the same way.