Capitals choke again!

[Polaris922]

Murray outplayed Holtby.  When the Caps really can't score without an extra man despite plenty of scoring chances...  

 

yeah it's a team game.  But Murray played better behind his team than Holtby.  Don't get me wrong Hoktby was great in there, I just think Murray was better.  

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, SkyHigh30 said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Let's say if Holtby won 3 games in the series shutting out the Penguins in each game 5-0, 5-0, and 5-0 while Murray was the other goalie in those games. Then in the other 4 games the Penguins and Murray won by the scores 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 1-0. Who was the better goalie in that series? Was it Murray who allowed 15 goals in 7 games or Holtby who allowed 4 goals in 7 games, but lost the series? Just playing Devils Advocate.

Which one is still playing? 

 

But that's not what happened here.  To answer your question, Murray still wins the series and has four shut outs. But even if i said it was questionable under this extreme hypothetical, there would be no rhetorical correlation to the current circumstance. 

 

Holtby played extremely well. But in this deciding game, did he ultimately cost them the game with the weak goal in the second or did he keep them in it with the several really good saves he made? 

 

I lean toward the second, but they lost by one. (seriously, you can't put this series on Holtby). 

 

Murray did enough to win 4 games. Holtby did enough to win two. 

 

Murray, the rookie, out-dueled Holtby in this one, even though Holt was a beast. 

[Lindbergh31]

2 minutes ago, SkyHigh30 said:

So in this instance wins are the most important, but I here a lot of other fans(not you) argue about other trophies given out that they put way too much emphasis on wins. Just an observation that I find interesting.

Since I've played goalie most of my life, I believe that a goalie who faces lots of shots, gets a shutout and wins the game would be in my mind the better goalie. So if Holtby had less than 25 shots per game in each of his shutout wins and Murray averaged 30 to 40 shots in each of his 1-0 shutout wins then I would say Murray is the better goalie. Yes it's a team sport but you look back at past cup winners, it usually as a result of a goalie playing really well which gives his teammates confidence to play a little more loose than a team who's goalie isn't playing well.

[SkyHigh30]

Holtby was definitely not the cause of the Capitals losing this series that is for damn sure.

[JagerMeister]

@Polaris922 See now that's fair. But the logic used on this thread to support that statement " hurrr durr Murray won the series Holtby didnt. Murray> Holtby" is absurd and nonsensical.

[ruxpin]

11 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

@SkyHigh30 You're not playing devils advocate...you agree with me

 

@Ruxpin  is a stubborn mule.

... Who happens to be right. 

 

Ovechkin is Crosby's bitch. 

Murray outplayed Holtby. 

 

Next series. 

[JagerMeister]

@SkyHigh30 And neither was the first line.

[JagerMeister]

@ruxpin Whatever your psychopathic hatred towards the Caps tell you. 

 

Sorry Ovi lost because of team shortcomings THIS year.

[SkyHigh30]

2 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Since I've played goalie most of my life, I believe that a goalie who faces lots of shots, gets a shutout and wins the game would be in my mind the better goalie. So if Holtby had less than 25 shots per game in each of his shutout wins and Murray averaged 30 to 40 shots in each of his 1-0 shutout wins then I would say Murray is the better goalie. Yes it's a team sport but you look back at past cup winners, it usually as a result of a goalie playing really well which gives his teammates confidence to play a little more loose than a team who's goalie isn't playing well.

I agree the Cup usually comes down to the hot goalie at the time and definitely Matt Murray fits that bill right at this moment. I have also played goalie since I was a little squirt and still do and getting a shutout is the utmost importance to me. When I can get a shutout I know my team is going to win and that makes me feel great. I do however throughout the season look at my GAA and Sv % quite frequently as they are also very important to me.

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, SkyHigh30 said:

So in this instance wins are the most important, but I here a lot of other fans(not you) argue about other trophies given out that they put way too much emphasis on wins. Just an observation that I find interesting.

That's regular season.  And yes. 

 

This is playoffs. It's win or go home.  And all else being pretty much equal in this case 

Penguins 4

Capitals 2

 

It's not even  like we're talking about a seven game series here. 

[SkyHigh30]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

That's regular season.  And yes. 

 

This is playoffs. It's win or go home.  And all else being pretty much equal in this case 

Penguins 4

Capitals 2

 

It's not even  like we're talking about a seven game series here. 

I was waiting for someone to bring that point up. Which is really the deciding factor.

[JagerMeister]

@ruxpin yes indeed. Pittsburgh was the superior team. Now something tells me you will make the connections and attribute that to Ovechkin and his inconsequential title as captain

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

@ruxpin Whatever your psychopathic hatred towards the Caps tell you. 

 

Sorry Ovi lost because of team shortcomings THIS year.

Every year. 

 

They brought in a coach after he chewed up the others. 

They have a top tier goalie (I'm not sure what was decided with the moron in the other thread, but Holtby is top tier) who did not fail them. 

 

They brought in Mr clutch and Oshie, who both played well. 

 

The common thread to every year is Ovechkin. He is not a winner. 

 

Even the Russian coach knew to keep him on the bench when the stakes got high. 

 

This is not psychopathic. What is is your insistence on arguing into the wind against the obvious reality. 

[JagerMeister]

He is not a winner because his entire team can't prevail above the first round. Ok.

 

What is this incredibly transparent reality that my partiality towards Ovechkin won't allow me to see? I know he's not a great playoff performer and in the past, was absolutely at fault for his unproductiveness. 

 

You repeat all this as if he is the one who should be held the most accountable for the Caps playoff failure. In other seasons I would be more inclined to agree with you. Not this season though.

[ruxpin]

7 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

@ruxpin yes indeed. Pittsburgh was the superior team. Now something tells me you will make the connections and attribute that to Ovechkin and his inconsequential title as captain

Yes. I will. 

Again. Every.Single Year. 

 

Mr All World.  11 years and never past the second round. Multiple times with superior teams.  This one probably one of, if not THE best. 

 

They will not, the can not, win while he is on that team. 

 

They can't trade him. I mean, Gretzky was traded, so anyone can be,  but the PR and tickets and merchandise sales of it.. Not happening. 

 

But yeah, this is becoming HIS legacy.  Add to that the Russian coach plants him firmly on the bench in the shootout game. 

 

Head to head I'll take a Crosby-led team over an Ovechkin-led team every day.  And I'm really not a fan of Crosby. 

 

Here's the thing, fair or not, the pens don't telegraph their offense around Crosby like the Caps do around Ovechkin.  Sure, if you watch at all, you have a good idea where both will be, particularly on the power play. 

 

But Ovechkin is just wind up and shoot, repeat, from roughly the same place.  That's great in the regular season, but in the playoffs where teams play you several games consecutively, they're going to get that clamped down. He'll still get some points, but his effectiveness is greatly diminished.   And he doesn't adapt. 

 

Normally I'd say that's coaching. But this is multiple coaching staffs with the same thing. 

 

I'll take a Crosby-led team over an Ovechkin team in the playoffs. Every time. 

[JagerMeister]

@ruxpin So would I. Because Crosby is the superior player and admitting that hurts,  because my dislike for Crosby is very, very strong. And yes, Ovechkin is not as dynamic and much more surmountable than he used to be. 

 

Call me insane, but I dont think the offense was built around him this year as it was previous years. Ku znetsov was the leading point producer with an incredible 5 on 5 point production ratio. He had 2 points in 11 games!!!. And you're here repeating  the same **** about Ovechkin even though he actually played adequately in comparison to his other postseason performances. There are too many variables to simply hold Ovechkin accountable for this one.

[JagerMeister]

@ruxpin Funny though. Ovechkin outscored Crosby AND Malkin in this series. You still want to attribute this TEAM loss to Ovi? 

[Polaris922]

30 minutes ago, JagerMeister said:

@ruxpin Funny though. Ovechkin outscored Crosby AND Malkin in this series. You still want to attribute this TEAM loss to Ovi? 

 

I think what is coming into question is... is Ovechkin the right man to be captain?  Does he lead the team to success or failuire?  Is it a leadership issue more than a skills issue?  There is so much talent on that team it's tough to see where the failing is... they're not losing to dumb luck year in year out.  The coaching staff has been moved around to bring on success.   So where is the issue?  

[OccamsRazor]

I smell Ovenchicken!!!!

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, JagerMeister said:

@ruxpin So would I. Because Crosby is the superior player and admitting that hurts,  because my dislike for Crosby is very, very strong. And yes, Ovechkin is not as dynamic and much more surmountable than he used to be. 

 

Call me insane, but I dont think the offense was built around him this year as it was previous years. Ku znetsov was the leading point producer with an incredible 5 on 5 point production ratio. He had 2 points in 11 games!!!. And you're here repeating  the same **** about Ovechkin even though he actually played adequately in comparison to his other postseason performances. There are too many variables to simply hold Ovechkin accountable for this one.

 

First paragraph;  with you on both counts.

 

Second paragraph:  Dear insane,  I agree.  I think the offense was spread better this year than previous.  Much better.  But on the power play in particular, everything funneled to that shot from the top of the circle.  And, with exceptions--this is Ovechkin--for the most part that was shut down.  With some success in the Flyers series and with increased success in the Pens.

 

There are always variables.  It's a team sport.  It's 11 years.  Never past the second round with very strong teams that can't get it done.   11 years is enough of a pattern to draw the conclusion where the problem is when everything else has changed, when the corpses of ex-coaches mount, a world class goalie, etc.  I went through the laundry list before so I won't bore you.

 

If the Capitals want to win this thing, they need to trade him.  The parts they get back plus the rest of the group and they win this thing (or at least make the ECF!).  That's not going to happen, so keep moving your chips to the "choke" square, every single year.

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, JagerMeister said:

@ruxpin Funny though. Ovechkin outscored Crosby AND Malkin in this series. You still want to attribute this TEAM loss to Ovi? 

 

Yes.  You led with that and I disregarded it.  I still do.  It's not relevant.

[pilldoc]

  =  

[pilldoc]

For some early morning reading enjoyment may I direct you here:

 

http://fans.capitals.nhl.com/community/forum/17-talk-about-capitals-hockey/

• http://fans.capitals.nhl.com/community/topic/64865-the-*****-penguins/

 

 

 

[JR Ewing]

8 hours ago, ruxpin said:

No  

 

It's about his teams coming up small.   Every single time. It doesn't matter who they bring in as coach or what good surrounding cast they bring in.   Every time. 

 

He's the captain. 

 

The other captain's team beat his.  Again. 

 

Ovechkin is Crosby's bitch.  Again. 

 

There's a little rule/bullsh|t test I try to live by: if the same things keep happening in your life, but with different people, you have to ask yourself what are the odds that it's always the other guy's fault, or if (just possibly) you yourself are to blame.

 

Ovechkin is all-time great, and I hate talking about a team sport like it's the heavyweight championship of the world, but we seem past the point of making excuses for him. We have to point out, like you did, that he's the common denominator here. He may not be the problem, but he's apparently not the solution either.

 

[AJgoal]

Damn. Pens tried like hell to let them back in it, too.