JR Ewing Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 “I’m on the phone every day. It’s part of the business. Everybody wants the kids. Toronto wants a young defensemen, and they’d give me practically anyone I would name, or so they say. But when I name someone, it just seems to break down. I could have (Ian) Turnbull, I guess, but I’m not sure I want him. Buffalo right now, why I could pick up the phone to Scott (Bowman) and have Jim Schoenfeld and Rick Martin. Schoenfeld’s just the kind of defenseman we need, and Martin has scored 50 goals twice, and he’s been an All-Star. But they’re what, 28 or 29? and what Scotty wants in return are (Dave) Hunter and (Paul) Coffey. I could do that, sure. We could move up about four places this year, just with that trade. But in three of four years, they'd kills me. Coffey’s going to be one of the best defensemen in this league. That’s all they want: The kids. I’m going to stick with these kids even if it means finishing last.” -Glen Sather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPuk Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 A true hockey genius. I don't know that there's anyone around these days to equal him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 20 hours ago, flyercanuck said: The guy is practically from Toronto... There are lots of players in the NHL from Toronto or the GTA. It's hard to keep track of them all. MDZ's numbers last season don't seem all that impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said: There are lots of players in the NHL from Toronto or the GTA. It's hard to keep track of them all. MDZ's numbers last season don't seem all that impressive. He was hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 On 12/8/2016 at 6:39 PM, flyercanuck said: You've got good management (finally) just enjoy the process. It would be awesome if some enterprising Leafs fan could start the "Trust. The. Process" chant at the AC. It's fitting and it's this year's brown bag over the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 4 hours ago, flyercanuck said: He was hurt. So then my next question would be: Why would the Flyers want to get rid of a good defenceman on a team that needs help defensively? Something smells fishy... In the case of the Leafs, we have an abundance of 2nd line forwards. It's not a secret. We're dealing from a position of strength. These aren't crap forwards that we have to get rid of. What we don't have is a defenceman that strikes fear into anyone's mind as they enter the Leafs zone. We're missing that Scott Stevens / Zdeno Chara / Rob Blake / insert whatever name you want type of guy that defends our own zone above all else, hits anything and everything that moves, and makes it tough for opposing forwards to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Podein25 said: It would be awesome if some enterprising Leafs fan could start the "Trust. The. Process" chant at the AC. It's fitting and it's this year's brown bag over the head. How about blue-waffles.com ? It's funny because the "waffle" thing became a thing a few years ago, and they'd be "blue" waffles to match the Leafs colors, and then there's that other meaning behind it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 15 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said: So then my next question would be: Why would the Flyers want to get rid of a good defenceman on a team that needs help defensively? Something smells fishy... In the case of the Leafs, we have an abundance of 2nd line forwards. It's not a secret. We're dealing from a position of strength. These aren't crap forwards that we have to get rid of. What we don't have is a defenceman that strikes fear into anyone's mind as they enter the Leafs zone. We're missing that Scott Stevens / Zdeno Chara / Rob Blake / insert whatever name you want type of guy that defends our own zone above all else, hits anything and everything that moves, and makes it tough for opposing forwards to play. Philly has Provorov, at 19, as our best defenceman. Ghost at 23 just had an incredible year for any offensive defenceman as a rookie. We have Travis Sanheim in the A, who's 6'4" but skates and handles the puck like Ghost, Sam Morin, who's 6'7" and skates well, and plays a rock solid defensive game. Phillipe Myers, who'll be the 3rd Flyer defenceman in a row on Canadas World Junior team, who's 6'5" and good all around. They also have several lesser prospects on the blueline. Philly is stacked at that position and is going to have to make room. So ya, we can afford to move MDZ. You know how awesome the Leafs trio of Mathews, Marner and Nylander look for Toronto? Well that's what's coming on Phillys blueline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said: So then my next question would be: Why would the Flyers want to get rid of a good defenceman on a team that needs help defensively? Something smells fishy... In the case of the Leafs, we have an abundance of 2nd line forwards. It's not a secret. We're dealing from a position of strength. These aren't crap forwards that we have to get rid of. What we don't have is a defenceman that strikes fear into anyone's mind as they enter the Leafs zone. We're missing that Scott Stevens / Zdeno Chara / Rob Blake / insert whatever name you want type of guy that defends our own zone above all else, hits anything and everything that moves, and makes it tough for opposing forwards to play. See, you're just missing a Hall of Fame defenseman... 2nd line forwards don't get you those sorts of defenseman. You want that, you'd better be ready to pay through the nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 3 hours ago, JR Ewing said: See, you're just missing a Hall of Fame defenseman... Even a B-version of one of those guys would be just what the Leafs need right now. 3 hours ago, JR Ewing said: 2nd line forwards don't get you those sorts of defenseman. You want that, you'd better be ready to pay through the nose. A couple of "B" tier shutdown defencemen would be as good as having one "A" guy. Just someone that is solid and dependable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 On 12/9/2016 at 8:47 AM, WordsOfWisdom said: Oh. The thing is, the Leafs wouldn't be trading away any picks to acquire an upgrade at defence. It would be existing roster players only, and none of the kids. Don't know about that, TO traded draft picks, including a first, for Andersen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 1 hour ago, hobie said: Don't know about that, TO traded draft picks, including a first, for Andersen. True, but I think that's actually the argument for why they wouldn't trade picks for upgrade at defense. But they have a bunch of picks, so I wouldn't rule it out either if the right move came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 10 hours ago, hobie said: Don't know about that, TO traded draft picks, including a first, for Andersen. You're the third Leafs fan on the forum!!! Awesome! Welcome aboard! I hope management doesn't start giving away draft picks. We have a glut of forwards and not enough ice time to go around for all of them. We also have cap space (finally) so we could do one of those modern day trades where someone gives us their star defenceman and we're kind enough to take him off their hands in exchange for next to nothing (other than to let them get under the cap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 5 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said: You're the third Leafs fan on the forum!!! Awesome! Welcome aboard! I hope management doesn't start giving away draft picks. We have a glut of forwards and not enough ice time to go around for all of them. We also have cap space (finally) so we could do one of those modern day trades where someone gives us their star defenceman and we're kind enough to take him off their hands in exchange for next to nothing (other than to let them get under the cap). A glut of forwards probably shows how much easier it is to accumulate forwards instead of d-men. We would more than likely get a d-man with star wages than get an actual star d-man for basically nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 15 hours ago, ruxpin said: True, but I think that's actually the argument for why they wouldn't trade picks for upgrade at defense. But they have a bunch of picks, so I wouldn't rule it out either if the right move came along. Why is the Andersen trade an argument for not using draft picks to upgrade the d? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 hours ago, hobie said: Why is the Andersen trade an argument for not using draft picks to upgrade the d? Because they already traded some picks and are still in rebuild. And then I said that they do still have 10 picks so maybe they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 hours ago, ruxpin said: Because they already traded some picks and are still in rebuild. And then I said that they do still have 10 picks so maybe they do. I think drafting is a passive rebuilding strategy while using draft picks to fill needs is proactive. At this moment TO has 2 of the essential building blocks of a good/great team and I would prefer they actively pursue a superior d-man rather than hope they get lucky in the draft and then wait out the development process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPuk Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I like to think that the Leafs actually know what they're getting in the draft. I have faith in both LL and Shanny. Throw in the best coach in the business and you have the foundation of a dynasty (or, in this case the return of a dynasty.) I think that building through the draft is being proactive when you're talking long-term. IMHO it is much better to win with your own home-grown talent than to trade - unless we're talking superstar and there is not a lot of those available. Patience.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 On 12/10/2016 at 11:50 AM, WordsOfWisdom said: So then my next question would be: Why would the Flyers want to get rid of a good defenceman on a team that needs help defensively? Something smells fishy... In the case of the Leafs, we have an abundance of 2nd line forwards. It's not a secret. We're dealing from a position of strength. These aren't crap forwards that we have to get rid of. What we don't have is a defenceman that strikes fear into anyone's mind as they enter the Leafs zone. We're missing that Scott Stevens / Zdeno Chara / Rob Blake / insert whatever name you want type of guy that defends our own zone above all else, hits anything and everything that moves, and makes it tough for opposing forwards to play. I think you might be on a collision course with Babs on this. Generally his defenders have been more about mobility and puckhandling that goon behaviour. Babs has even told Connor Carrick to curb back on the physical play and use his speed and positioning to defend while always looking to move the puck out of TO's d zone. TO already had a player like you're championing, Phanny, and was in a hurry to move move him. Altho I don't think TO's defensemen aren't anything to brag about, I do think they're competent. I feel what's often lacking is the ability of the team to defend which might be more about youthful forwards that any specific d-men problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, hobie said: I think you might be on a collision course with Babs on this. Generally his defenders have been more about mobility and puckhandling that goon behaviour. I'm not saying they have to be goons, but the Red Wings had Chris Chelios for example. The Ducks had Chris Pronger to go with Scott Niedermayer. Any team that has mobile, puck-moving defencemen (commonly referred to as offensive-defencemen), always has someone that defends first, is physically imposing, and throws their weight around. You can't win the Stanley Cup without having a defenceman like that on your team because the offence-minded guys usually cheat up the ice and get caught. They usually don't defend well and other teams exploit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said: I'm not saying they have to be goons, but the Red Wings had Chris Chelios for example. The Ducks had Chris Pronger to go with Scott Niedermayer. Any team that has mobile, puck-moving defencemen (commonly referred to as offensive-defencemen), always has someone that defends first, is physically imposing, and throws their weight around. You can't win the Stanley Cup without having a defenceman like that on your team because the offence-minded guys usually cheat up the ice and get caught. They usually don't defend well and other teams exploit that. For me a mobile d-man is someone that can skate and think when they have the puck or are under pressure, the opposite of say Polak and Schenn. This player isn't necessarily offensively polished but should be able to defend by relieving pressure thru puck movement rather than pyloning in front of the Leaf net. The longer the puck is in the Leaf zone, the more likely a goal against the Leafs will be scored. I've been noticing Gardiner is becoming more physical, more willing to use his body to take a player out but only as a last measure and this is something I like, Rielly as well to a lesser degree. Neither are physically punishing. The single player that is mobile, offensively capable, physically intimidating and defensively capable is an ideal player that is rare. I don't think this player comes along very often and I agree, who wouldn't want him. We've seen TO have difficulty protect leads and I wonder why, TO's top 4 d-men are mobile so we're either having a coaching issue or a support issue, support from the forwards. RC wanted TO to swarm the front of the Leaf's net which often meant they were flat footed and not capable of properly moving the puck out of the Leaf zone. Babs is having them play a modified swarm with more pressure on the puck much like how TO PKs. The PK is awesome so I think eventually as the young forwards gather experience, Babs' game plan will result in better d. I would like to see Matthews, Marner and Nylander on the PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 16 hours ago, hobie said: For me a mobile d-man is someone that can skate and think when they have the puck or are under pressure, the opposite of say Polak and Schenn. This player isn't necessarily offensively polished but should be able to defend by relieving pressure thru puck movement rather than pyloning in front of the Leaf net. The longer the puck is in the Leaf zone, the more likely a goal against the Leafs will be scored. I agree. Historically however, you had defencemen that would join in on the attack (Paul Coffey types) but they tended to be weak defensively. To counter that, teams would get someone whose primary role was defending. That type of defenceman would leave the offence to the forwards and focus on shutting down the opposition. There have been a number of examples of these guys over the years including: Derian Hatcher, Adam Foote, Ken Daneyko, etc.......... Both types had to be able to clear the zone and make that first pass to the forwards. 16 hours ago, hobie said: I would like to see Matthews, Marner and Nylander on the PK. Eventually that will happen. Right now they get to focus on offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said: I agree. Historically however, you had defencemen that would join in on the attack (Paul Coffey types) but they tended to be weak defensively. To counter that, teams would get someone whose primary role was defending. That type of defenceman would leave the offence to the forwards and focus on shutting down the opposition. There have been a number of examples of these guys over the years including: Derian Hatcher, Adam Foote, Ken Daneyko, etc.......... Both types had to be able to clear the zone and make that first pass to the forwards. Eventually that will happen. Right now they get to focus on offence. I think that was a different NHL, the NHL now is about possession rather than all out d so a player like Polak struggles in the current NHL as his only option when in possession of the puck is get it out rather than passing it or skating it out. The players you've mentioned were capable offensively except Daneyko who played for a very d centric team. I think the reason in part the NHL has changed so much, we're in the dead puck era, is because the d-men are more capable in all zones as opposed to the 80's where superior players could exploit slow, d first d-men. I don't know why TO isn't using the top 3 to kill penalties, it should be a part of their development, a part of their team first development rather than allowing them to be satisfied by their stats. We have one of the better PKs in the NHL but it could possibly be even better with Matthews, Marner and Nylander there. Their offense is great but I think that's innate and something that they find easy to do. They've spent a lifetime scoring with little attention to d detail and, it's time for them to learn d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 7 hours ago, hobie said: I think that was a different NHL, the NHL now is about possession rather than all out d so a player like Polak struggles in the current NHL as his only option when in possession of the puck is get it out rather than passing it or skating it out. I would say that the current NHL game is all about speed. Players have to be mobile so that they can move the puck quickly and keep the play going. All types of defencemen need to be able to pass the puck well and skate well in today's NHL. Basically I agree with you, although Polak has been the most reliable defenceman for the Leafs according to my own DE stat, for what that's worth. He does nothing offensively, but he handles his own end of the ice just nicely it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said: I would say that the current NHL game is all about speed. Players have to be mobile so that they can move the puck quickly and keep the play going. All types of defencemen need to be able to pass the puck well and skate well in today's NHL. Basically I agree with you, although Polak has been the most reliable defenceman for the Leafs according to my own DE stat, for what that's worth. He does nothing offensively, but he handles his own end of the ice just nicely it seems. You're not the only person I've seen say they like how Polak plays and what he's accomplishing. I see Polak as a giveaway machine, he does alrite defensively but when he has the puck he gives it back to the opposition. He either throws the puck up the boards out of TO's zone to the opposition or he simply gives it to the opposition in TO's d zone. His best option in TO's d zone when he has the puck is give it to his partner. As a PKer he's OK because throwing the puck down the boards is what's expected but giving up possession 5v5 due to lack of foot or mental speed isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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