Could the Expansion Draft Rid Us Of This Meddlesome MacDud?

[AJgoal]

31 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm still not sure about this.  

 

He could certainly be traded at half his current cap hit to certain teams. But, as we both said said, he won't be picked in expansion. Unless Vegas swings the deal you mention with one of the teams on your list, since they have 48 hours (I believe) to choose after the list of unprotected players is submitted by the teams. So it's conceivable they could have talks with, say, Arizona and agree to draft MacDonald, then trade him to them for a pick. Unlikeliest of scenarios (after them taking him because the WANT him), but possible. 

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

He could certainly be traded at half his current cap hit to certain teams. But, as we both said said, he won't be picked in expansion. Unless Vegas swings the deal you mention with one of the teams on your list, since they have 48 hours (I believe) to choose after the list of unprotected players is submitted by the teams. So it's conceivable they could have talks with, say, Arizona and agree to draft MacDonald, then trade him to them for a pick. Unlikeliest of scenarios (after them taking him because the WANT him), but possible. 

 

Yeah.  I don't really see Vegas taking him like I said.  But getting him up to 40 games gives us the chance to protect (possibly) both Gudas and Manning (depending on what Hextall does with DelZotto).  So as long as they're winning while getting him to 40 games, I'm cool with giving the team the most options come Summer.

 

Vegas HAS to draft a guy with an existing NHL contract from every NHL team which will probably lead them to covering the cap floor very easily.  I don't see them specifically needing to make a deal like this.  There are other teams that might.  

 

 

 

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Yeah.  I don't really see Vegas taking him like I said.  But getting him up to 40 games gives us the chance to protect (possibly) both Gudas and Manning (depending on what Hextall does with DelZotto).  So as long as they're winning while getting him to 40 games, I'm cool with giving the team the most options come Summer.

 

Vegas HAS to draft a guy with an existing NHL contract from every NHL team which will probably lead them to covering the cap floor very easily.  I don't see them specifically needing to make a deal like this.  There are other teams that might. 

 

It's looking more and more to me that Del Zotto will be trade bait - probably near the deadline. His skill set is in the same areas as Ghost and Provorov, for example, but I think both of them will be better for longer (not to mention Sanheim).

 

They'll also be MUCH cheaper for the short and mid-term. Provorov/Sanheim/Manning are $1M less combined than what Del Zotto's making now.

 

It's not that I "don't like" Del Zotto - he's fine. But I believe he could return a pretty nice asset and the Flyers won't lose much - if anything - in the exchange.

[AJgoal]

21 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Vegas HAS to draft a guy with an existing NHL contract from every NHL team which will probably lead them to covering the cap floor very easily.  I don't see them specifically needing to make a deal like this.  There are other teams that might.  

 

I think you misunderstood me, as the only teams that could conceivably trade away MacDonald for futures are Philly and Vegas.

 

Let's assume that Arizona wants MacDonald's contract. The Flyers can't make the move before the expansion draft because they need to expose MacDonald for the draft. Vegas talks to Arizona and says, "Hey, you want that contract? OK, give us a 4th this year and it's yours." Arizona agrees, and Vegas drafts MacDonald and immediately trades him to Arizona.

 

As I said, outlandish, but slightly less so than Vegas wanting MacDonald for themselves.

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

I think you misunderstood me, as the only teams that could conceivably trade away MacDonald for futures are Philly and Vegas.

 

Let's assume that Arizona wants MacDonald's contract. The Flyers can't make the move before the expansion draft because they need to expose MacDonald for the draft. Vegas talks to Arizona and says, "Hey, you want that contract? OK, give us a 4th this year and it's yours." Arizona agrees, and Vegas drafts MacDonald and immediately trades him to Arizona.

 

As I said, outlandish, but slightly less so than Vegas wanting MacDonald for themselves.

 

It's primarily "outlandish" because, unlike the other contracts they've dealt for like Pronger and Datsyuk, MacDonald's "actual pay" is more than his cap hit for the next three years (#homercoaster).

 

$5.25M

$5.5M

$5.75M

 

vs. $5M cap hit.

 

Arizona doesn't gain anything by taking that contract on. Of course, no one ever did...

[King Knut]

47 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

It's looking more and more to me that Del Zotto will be trade bait - probably near the deadline. His skill set is in the same areas as Ghost and Provorov, for example, but I think both of them will be better for longer (not to mention Sanheim).

 

They'll also be MUCH cheaper for the short and mid-term. Provorov/Sanheim/Manning are $1M less combined than what Del Zotto's making now.

 

It's not that I "don't like" Del Zotto - he's fine. But I believe he could return a pretty nice asset and the Flyers won't lose much - if anything - in the exchange.

 

Yeah, I really thought he'd emerge as this squad's leader this year, but it hasn't happened.  

I wish they could play Schultz right now because frankly I think MDZ, Schultz and Streit could all be legit deadline bait this year.  

[King Knut]

25 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

It's primarily "outlandish" because, unlike the other contracts they've dealt for like Pronger and Datsyuk, MacDonald's "actual pay" is more than his cap hit for the next three years (#homercoaster).

 

$5.25M

$5.5M

$5.75M

 

vs. $5M cap hit.

 

Arizona doesn't gain anything by taking that contract on. Of course, no one ever did...

 

How do they not gain anything?  They gain exactly everything we've been talking about.  

As it is now, they're getting a cap hit of 5 million AND having to pay someone to play that position (Luke Schenn at 1.3 let's say).  

 

They get both in the same player if they take MacDonald and they're still saving close to a million on the deal.

 

I'm not saying they do it.  I'm just saying that if after all their contracts expire at the end of this year, they find themselves in need of cap floor help, MacDonald could start to make some sense.

 

The larger problem with the Coyotes in this scenario is that they won't be losing many defensemen.  It would be a far better idea to make this sort of deal for an overpaid forward as they could need to resign/replace 8 of them.

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

He could certainly be traded at half his current cap hit to certain teams. But, as we both said said, he won't be picked in expansion. Unless Vegas swings the deal you mention with one of the teams on your list, since they have 48 hours (I believe) to choose after the list of unprotected players is submitted by the teams. So it's conceivable they could have talks with, say, Arizona and agree to draft MacDonald, then trade him to them for a pick. Unlikeliest of scenarios (after them taking him because the WANT him), but possible. 

 

I don't think the Vegas deal swinging was really my idea.  I don't see Vegas taking them unless they go in alphabetical order and realize they got to the P's and are $20 million short of the cap.

[AJgoal]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Yeah, I really thought he'd emerge as this squad's leader this year, but it hasn't happened.  

I wish they could play Schultz right now because frankly I think MDZ, Schultz and Streit could all be legit deadline bait this year.  

 

Frankly, I don't see Streit moved at the deadline if the Flyers are in the thick of it. He's putting up points at a nice clip and is part of the leadership group. He's not getting traded unless they fall out of the hunt.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

How do they not gain anything?  They gain exactly everything we've been talking about.  

As it is now, they're getting a cap hit of 5 million AND having to pay someone to play that position (Luke Schenn at 1.3 let's say).  

 

They get both in the same player if they take MacDonald and they're still saving close to a million on the deal.

 

I'm not saying they do it.  I'm just saying that if after all their contracts expire at the end of this year, they find themselves in need of cap floor help, MacDonald could start to make some sense.

 

The larger problem with the Coyotes in this scenario is that they won't be losing many defensemen.  It would be a far better idea to make this sort of deal for an overpaid forward as they could need to resign/replace 8 of them.

 

 

Right, but up to now Arizona has been getting to the cap floor with contracts that have cost them relatively little compared to cap hit. Datsyuk is $2M less than his $7.5M cap hit and Pronger is $575K to his $4.9M.

 

Paying more than the cap hit to get there hasn't been their m.o. which is why I said they don't really gain anything but taking on the contract.

 

That and, as you mention, they're not losing many Dmen - they still have six signed for next season from their current roster (could, of course, be affected by the expansion draft).

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Frankly, I don't see Streit moved at the deadline if the Flyers are in the thick of it. He's putting up points at a nice clip and is part of the leadership group. He's not getting traded unless they fall out of the hunt.

 

Yeah, I think it depends.  I think I thought that when I expected them to do only marginally better than last year.  We'll see if they actually do much better.  If they're looking to be scraping in on a #8 wild card spot again and other teams are looking strong, I could see Hexy making a deal.

 

If however, they continue to play strong between now and the deadline and are not just in the hunt, but looking STRONG and feeling it (kinda like they do now), I agree.  Trading Streit won't make much sense.

 

Trading Schultz or MDZ who aren't playing at all (or at least not every night in MDZ's case) makes more sense.  

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Right, but up to now Arizona has been getting to the cap floor with contracts that have cost them relatively little compared to cap hit. Datsyuk is $2M less than his $7.5M cap hit and Pronger is $575K to his $4.9M.

 

Paying more than the cap hit to get there hasn't been their m.o. which is why I said they don't really gain anything but taking on the contract.

 

That and, as you mention, they're not losing many Dmen - they still have six signed for next season from their current roster (could, of course, be affected by the expansion draft).

 

They have 6, but only 4 are really NHL caliber (though one of the 2 remaining is a talented prospect).  

I see the point about the cap hit vs. salary, but again I'll point out that Datsyuk and Pronger aren't actually playing for them.  

 

All in all, I really still hate hOmer.  

[AJgoal]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Right, but up to now Arizona has been getting to the cap floor with contracts that have cost them relatively little compared to cap hit. Datsyuk is $2M less than his $7.5M cap hit and Pronger is $575K to his $4.9M.

 

Paying more than the cap hit to get there hasn't been their m.o. which is why I said they don't really gain anything but taking on the contract.

 

That and, as you mention, they're not losing many Dmen - they still have six signed for next season from their current roster (could, of course, be affected by the expansion draft).

 

Actually, Datsyuk is $7.5 million less than his hit because he is retired. I hadn't looked at MacDonald's contract breakdown, but the increasing pay makes him unattractive from that perspective. There are always scenarios where a guy can get moved, though. Look at that Tronno-Columbus trade for the levels of ridiculousness that can be found. It's easier to find a partner by eating half of his contract, though.

[AJgoal]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Looking at their capfriendly.com numbers, they're actually close to the cap this season at $74M.

 

Not only that, they actually have a player on LTIR to get under the cap.

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Actually, Datsyuk is $7.5 million less than his hit because he is retired. I hadn't looked at MacDonald's contract breakdown, but the increasing pay makes him unattractive from that perspective. There are always scenarios where a guy can get moved, though. Look at that Tronno-Columbus trade for the levels of ridiculousness that can be found. It's easier to find a partner by eating half of his contract, though.

 

They got rid of VLC's contract, too. Anything's possible.

 

If they want to ship out a roster player and eat salary to do it...

 

[AJgoal]

Just now, radoran said:

 

They got rid of VLC's contract, too. Anything's possible.

 

If they want to ship out a roster player and eat salary to do it...

 

 

Well I guess Luke Schenn was technically a roster player.

 

He actually wasn't bad for them last year, but he was an expiring contract and not in the future plans. And getting back a 3rd (and Weal for LV) wasn't a bad return. Less than had they traded Luke by himself, but from what I saw, that pick would have been at most a 2nd for Luke sans extra baggage.

 

But you shouldn't have to add a player to trade MacDonald if you hold salary. MacDonald at 2.5ish million is not bad.

[radoran]

7 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

But you shouldn't have to add a player to trade MacDonald if you hold salary. MacDonald at 2.5ish million is not bad.

 

#KrisRussell

 

Now where's that damn horse carcass?

 

[AJgoal]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

#KrisRussell

 

Now where's that damn horse carcass?

 

 

If you use Kris Russell this season as a benchmark, MacDonald at 2.5 million is a bargain.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

If you use Kris Russell this season as a benchmark, MacDonald at 2.5 million is a bargain.

 

except for the 1-year deal part of the equation and the need to pay MacDonald for three more...

 

I did note earlier that his effect on Edmonton is Quite Similar to MacDonald's on the Flyers - with almost the same number of wins in and out of the lineup (with a Very Small sample size).

 

They both did have assists in the last game, with Russell +1 to MacDonald's even and both had a penalty. Russel 1 hit to MacD's 2 and with 4 blocks to MacD's 3.

[Poulin20]

On 12/8/2016 at 2:15 PM, Podein25 said:

 

I have no idea what that means. Is it some kinda haiku?

                                                                           I love haiku humor! 

[Podein25]

1 minute ago, Poulin20 said:

I love haiku humor! 

 

It's a bit of a niche area humor-wise wouldn't you say?

[King Knut]

4 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's a bit of a niche area humor-wise wouldn't you say?

 

Dude, that's not quite right

for a haiku you would need 

two more syllables

[Poulin20]

1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's a bit of a niche area humor-wise wouldn't you say?

 

Oh no doubt!  That's what makes it so funny, because it so rarely heard the unexpected nature of the haiku joke, or any joke that you never saw coming, makes it that much funnier!

[elmatus]

4 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm still not sure about this.  

I think it's still highly unlikely, but as I pointed out a while back, while there is little chance Vegas won't make the league cap minimum, Pronger is coming off the Coyotes books this year and they are likely to lose a few other UFA's (Shane Doan has deadline trade written all over him).

 

The chances are good they're going to need a D man to fill out their roster at the end of the year and depending on who they resign and for how much, they'll have to make up about $20 million in new contracts in the off season to get back up to the league minimum while filling 9-10 active roster spots.

 

This is a team that took Pronger's contract off our hands in order to have him do nothing at all and MacDonald is certainly playing better than nothing at all right now.  

 

They could just promote the youngster Chychrun to full time NHL status, but that's just enough to ice 6 guys a night and he only counts as a $1mil ELC against the cap.  

 

The other half of this is that the UFA market for high end talent is going to be a little more competitive this year as there's an extra team in Vegas that will be extremely motivated to bring in some actual talent to support the role players they will just have drafted.

 

Add to that the fact that the UFA market for mid-low range talent will ALSO be more competitive because  a lot of teams are going to need to be filling in roster holes after the expansion draft. 

 

And since Phoenix is not exactly a top destination for UFA's or stars with NMC's or modified NTC's, I'm saying that no matter what, Phoenix is going to have to overpay for some sort of MacDonald type player this off season (i.e. a guy who makes more than he's worth) in order to reach the league minimum.  

 

I'm using Phoenix here just because they have a history of making deals like this that actually haven't benefitted them on the ice at all. Right now they're in fine shape cap wise, but in July it'll be a little different.

 

A team like Carolina is in much more need to some money. They're right at the basement right now and they need up to 11 new contracts for next year.  

 

Long story short, while I'm not taking MacDonald if I'm Vegas, I think there's a decent chance there's a team out there that could want him.    

 

 

 

 

There's about a 0% chance Vegas picks McDud over other options. They're not going to have difficulty reaching the floor with all the balloon contract players that will be available to them. There's no way they pick McDud over Read or Bellemare. And even if they don't like those two, they'll just go fishing for Laughton or someone else from the pool. All of those players bring more value than McDud. That said, I could get behind the idea of Phoenix or another low-market team snagging him to reach the floor. That makes far more sense to me for sure.

 

As for his relatively okay play of late, I very honestly think he's benefiting / bring propped up by his defensive partner, who is quickly proving to be not only NHL ready but climbing the league ranks on a nightly basis. McDud has even mentioned it himself how amazing it is to be playing with someone who is virtually always in the exact right place he needs to be.

 

Put McDud with anyone else for a while, and the chorus around here will shift just as quickly. He's been making plenty of mistakes, as he always has, and Provo has been bailing him out constantly.

[King Knut]

4 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

There's about a 0% chance Vegas picks McDud over other options. They're not going to have difficulty reaching the floor with all the balloon contract players that will be available to them. There's no way they pick McDud over Read or Bellemare. And even if they don't like those two, they'll just go fishing for Laughton or someone else from the pool. All of those players bring more value than McDud. That said, I could get behind the idea of Phoenix or another low-market team snagging him to reach the floor. That makes far more sense to me for sure.

 

 

What exactly of that isn't what I've said several other times already?