hobie Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I thought I'd like to see how TO could've been this year if 2 trades hadn't been made, Kessel and Phanny. Hyman/Matthews/Kessel JVR/Bozak/Marner Nylander/Kadri/Brown Martin/Leo/Winnik Rielly/Zaitsev Gardiner/Phanny Hunwick/Marincin Polak Reimer/McE Until Nylander became a Marlie he was always a LW in Sweden. Reimer's SV% was one of the best in the NHL last year, he might not be a long term solution but Chicago won the Cup with Niemi in net. I see the possibility of 3 dominant scoring lines and a 4th that can defend and chip in offensively. Could this team win a Cup, maybe. Kessel and Phanny weren't ever going to go anywhere with the sad sack support TO gave them for 6 years, now TO has the support and no Phanny and Kessel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 3 hours ago, hobie said: I thought I'd like to see how TO could've been this year if 2 trades hadn't been made, Kessel and Phanny. Hyman/Matthews/Kessel JVR/Bozak/Marner Nylander/Kadri/Brown Martin/Leo/Winnik Rielly/Zaitsev Gardiner/Phanny Hunwick/Marincin Polak Reimer/McE Until Nylander became a Marlie he was always a LW in Sweden. Reimer's SV% was one of the best in the NHL last year, he might not be a long term solution but Chicago won the Cup with Niemi in net. I see the possibility of 3 dominant scoring lines and a 4th that can defend and chip in offensively. Could this team win a Cup, maybe. Kessel and Phanny weren't ever going to go anywhere with the sad sack support TO gave them for 6 years, now TO has the support and no Phanny and Kessel.. Are you taking into account the $15 million caphit those two bring with them? Leafs retained what..$1.2? So $13.8. I don't think there's any players going back the other way if those two came in, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 9 hours ago, hobie said: I thought I'd like to see how TO could've been this year if 2 trades hadn't been made, Kessel and Phanny. Here I thought you meant prior to acquiring Kessel. In which case the Leafs would have: Tyler Seguin Dougie Hamilton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Are you taking into account the $15 million caphit those two bring with them? Leafs retained what..$1.2? So $13.8. I don't think there's any players going back the other way if those two came in, is there? TO has a lot of dead money on the books that was accepted to entice other teams to take their better players. Brooks 3.55 mil., Michalek 3.05 mil, Greening 1.7 and that's more than what Kessel makes. TO has a great deal of LTIR $s in Horton 5.3 mil. and Lupul 5.25 which is more than enough to afford Phanny. Next year Robidas will be off the books freeing up 3 mil so the room to afford Phanny and Kessel was/is there. OK, I guess, going in a different direction makes sense but only if the better parts of the previous regime's direction are/were properly utilized, like Kessel being the top scorer on a Cup winning team during the playoffs. On top of, out with the old and in with the new/different TO spends 2.5 mil. for 4 years on the amazing 7 minute man, Martin? TO doesn't have a single player from the Phanny/Kessel transactions on the team except for Andersen and I'm not sure if he's a upgrade on Reimer. What is, is so we have to live with it but IMHO there were better options. The Martin signing is a harbinger of what may yet come to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said: Here I thought you meant prior to acquiring Kessel. In which case the Leafs would have: Tyler Seguin Dougie Hamilton I liked the Kessel trade, I think TO got an even better player than the one they traded for. People seem to forget that Kessel was only 21 at that time and already established. TO traded for him with unknowns that could have ended up being mid or low draft choices. Angst now is the result of 20/20. We don't even know who TO might have drafted with those choices, TO's drafting record at that time was pretty bad. Just because Boston used them properly, I guess, doesn't mean TO would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, hobie said: I liked the Kessel trade, I think TO got an even better player than the one they traded for. People seem to forget that Kessel was only 21 at that time and already established. TO traded for him with unknowns that could have ended up being mid or low draft choices. Angst now is the result of 20/20. We don't even know who TO might have drafted with those choices, TO's drafting record at that time was pretty bad. Just because Boston used them properly, I guess, doesn't mean TO would have. I would have liked the Kessel trade if the Leafs hadn't gave up those #1 picks. The trade seemed "okay" initially but turned out very bad for Toronto when Toronto bottomed out and Boston was able to select Seguin and Hamilton instead of getting two mid-round draft picks. Also, Kessel didn't develop his game further in Toronto and became a lazy, introverted, media hating, sulking player. It was thought that Kessel still had tremendous upside but he plateaued. If Kessel had continued to progress (say into a reliable 40-goal scorer), work a little on the defensive side of the game, become a leader on the team, and showed a willingness to deal with the Toronto media properly, I think he would have avoided most (if not all) of the fallout from that trade. Instead, he became a lightning rod for criticism for because he wasn't giving 100% and seemed to be "punching the clock" and waiting for his trade out of Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said: I would have liked the Kessel trade if the Leafs hadn't gave up those #1 picks. The trade seemed "okay" initially but turned out very bad for Toronto when Toronto bottomed out and Boston was able to select Seguin and Hamilton instead of getting two mid-round draft picks. Also, Kessel didn't develop his game further in Toronto and became a lazy, introverted, media hating, sulking player. It was thought that Kessel still had tremendous upside but he plateaued. If Kessel had continued to progress (say into a reliable 40-goal scorer), work a little on the defensive side of the game, become a leader on the team, and showed a willingness to deal with the Toronto media properly, I think he would have avoided most (if not all) of the fallout from that trade. Instead, he became a lightning rod for criticism for because he wasn't giving 100% and seemed to be "punching the clock" and waiting for his trade out of Toronto. I can remember Kessel expressing a desire to be used as a PKer, which probably wouldn't have been good, but it did show he was vested. He was top a 10 scorer for 3 consecutive years and if TO had, had proper coaches it might have been possible he could've been developed more properly but it didn't happen. Kessel wasn't a leader, he was/is a superior talent that too many looked to him to lead TO to glory. TO needed to give him the right support like a true leader so Kessel could do what he was/is born to do. He has a bad public personality and that's fine, on Pitts it won't be an issue because they already have leaders and players that are adept publically. It's a perfect place for Kessel and it's too bad TO couldn't have become like Pitts. We all like to judge Kessel because we saw him game after game so we became all too aware of his warts. There seems to be some sort of isolated universe otherwise known as Leafdom where we think that Kessel is the only star that abhors defense, hates being and giving hits and what have you but he isn't. If we really watched most other stars we'd see that Kessel is far more normal than we suspect for a star. Generally who gives 100 % on most teams, it's usually marginals and rookies. Marginals play the game and stay in the NHL based on their effort, players like Kessel are enhanced if they give 100 %, maybe, but a facet of their ability/talent is being able to think the game and not simply relying on hustle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Do you seriously think Phil would go back to the Leads? I'm having my doubts! I wonder if the Bruins regret giving up on him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, notfondajane said: Do you seriously think Phil would go back to the Leads? I'm having my doubts! I wonder if the Bruins regret giving up on him? For me it's not about him coming back, it's more about TO trading him away for nothing, especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I believe the Pens gave you a 1st round pick for him (which I didn't like giving you!)? What became of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 hour ago, notfondajane said: I believe the Pens gave you a 1st round pick for him (which I didn't like giving you!)? What became of that? Actually TO got 2 1st, one was traded to Philly who chose Konecny, TO got a lower 1st rounder plus a 3rd, TO then traded that lower 1st for a 2nd and a 3rd. So from that 1 first TO ended up with a 2nd and 2 3rds. This magic was accomplished in a strong draft where pretty well the entire 1st round was considered strong, a draft comparable to 2003. Konecny is on Philly already and TO's choices are still percolating in junior or the minors. Are you regretting winning the Cup, Kessel being the top scorer in the entire playoffs isn't enough. Winning the Cup requires a great deal of luck and skill and IMHO going for it when conditions are right is something that should/has to be done. I'm a Cup junkie, are you a draft choice junkie more worried about the future than what's happening now? If Pitts didn't win the Cup then maybe the Kessel trade might be seen as troubling but that's not the case and on top of that there's no reason to believe they can't repeat.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 58 minutes ago, hobie said: Actually TO got 2 1st, one was traded to Philly who chose Konecny, TO got a lower 1st rounder plus a 3rd, TO then traded that lower 1st for a 2nd and a 3rd. So from that 1 first TO ended up with a 2nd and 2 3rds. This magic was accomplished in a strong draft where pretty well the entire 1st round was considered strong, a draft comparable to 2003. Konecny is on Philly already and TO's choices are still percolating in junior or the minors. Are you regretting winning the Cup, Kessel being the top scorer in the entire playoffs isn't enough. Winning the Cup requires a great deal of luck and skill and IMHO going for it when conditions are right is something that should/has to be done. I'm a Cup junkie, are you a draft choice junkie more worried about the future than what's happening now? If Pitts didn't win the Cup then maybe the Kessel trade might be seen as troubling but that's not the case and on top of that there's no reason to believe they can't repeat.. I went nuts when the Pens won the Cup last year! I still have a eye on the future! I want my teams to compete every single year similar to the Red Wings the last 25 years! I like the Pens to go deep into the playoffs every year (may not be possible)! In order to do that a team would need a strong Farm system that is built thru the draft! Yes I am hoping for a 5th cup this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 hour ago, notfondajane said: I went nuts when the Pens won the Cup last year! I still have a eye on the future! I want my teams to compete every single year similar to the Red Wings the last 25 years! I like the Pens to go deep into the playoffs every year (may not be possible)! In order to do that a team would need a strong Farm system that is built thru the draft! Yes I am hoping for a 5th cup this year! It might be possible to be competitive forever but at sometimes to go beyond just being competitive teams do need to go all in. Sidney, Malkin and Letang only have a little time left as dominant players and we've seen that without the proper support they couldn't get it done, win the Cup that is. It's always ideal to eat the cake and have it too but I'd rather eat it. With Pitts superior core there's no reason they can't be Detroit competitive for years and with a competent management group being competitive for years beyond having this current core should be a breeze. Volumes of draft choices don't necessarily make or ensure that a team is competitive, who's on the roster is what's important. Pitts. is and was able to win Cups and be great for years because they have managed to tank at the right times, Lemieux and Crosby, so it seems you actually might hope that Pitts does get bad for a time in order to resurrect as a possible superior team in the future. If Pitts would want, as you seem to, a forever average team then they should start moving their aging core, now, but I think that would be dumb, they're good enough to win and should be all in to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 hours ago, hobie said: Actually TO got 2 1st, one was traded to Philly who chose Konecny, TO got a lower 1st rounder plus a 3rd, TO then traded that lower 1st for a 2nd and a 3rd. So from that 1 first TO ended up with a 2nd and 2 3rds. This magic was accomplished in a strong draft where pretty well the entire 1st round was considered strong, a draft comparable to 2003. Konecny is on Philly already and TO's choices are still percolating in junior or the minors. Are you regretting winning the Cup, Kessel being the top scorer in the entire playoffs isn't enough. Winning the Cup requires a great deal of luck and skill and IMHO going for it when conditions are right is something that should/has to be done. I'm a Cup junkie, are you a draft choice junkie more worried about the future than what's happening now? If Pitts didn't win the Cup then maybe the Kessel trade might be seen as troubling but that's not the case and on top of that there's no reason to believe they can't repeat.. I went nuts when the Pens won the Cup last year! I still have a eye on the future! I want my teams to compete every single year similar to the Red Wings the last 25 years! I like the Pens to go deep into the playoffs every year (may not be possible)! In order to do that a team would need a strong Farm system that is built thru the draft! Yes I am hoping for a 5th cup this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I agree that it's who on the roster Pgh drafted Crosby, Malkin and Fleury! Tho I feel that IMO, Fleury has hurt the Pens cause come Playoffs time in recent years! Hopefully he'll be gone by seasons end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, notfondajane said: I agree that it's who on the roster Pgh drafted Crosby, Malkin and Fleury! Tho I feel that IMO, Fleury has hurt the Pens cause come Playoffs time in recent years! Hopefully he'll be gone by seasons end! Chicago won their Cup in 2010 and won with Niemi in net so it's probably not as necessary to have a dominant or super star goalie as it's necessary to have a hot goalie in the playoffs. However it is necessary to have a goalie that's good enough to get any team into the playoffs before having a chance to win the Cup. Murray is still a long term unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 10 hours ago, hobie said: Chicago won their Cup in 2010 and won with Niemi in net so it's probably not as necessary to have a dominant or super star goalie as it's necessary to have a hot goalie in the playoffs. However it is necessary to have a goalie that's good enough to get any team into the playoffs before having a chance to win the Cup. Murray is still a long term unknown. Or meet up with a team in the finals with a worse goalie than yours (AKA Leaky Leighton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 1/24/2017 at 2:23 AM, flyercanuck said: Or meet up with a team in the finals with a worse goalie than yours (AKA Leaky Leighton) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edanl Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 I don't think that Kessel would have been good for Toronto and I think that Marleau is a better fit for this young team. From what read in the media and interviews with players, I believe that Marleau is more the leader that Toronto needs. I think that Marleau can bring a lot of experience and leadership that the young players benefit from this. In my opinion, Kessel also would have wanted more money, and the cost would have been higher. I like the path that Toronto is going on with the rebuilding process and glad to see the progress. I believe that the management and Babcock will continue with the same mindset and I think that the future is bright. In my opinion, Marleau is a better fit for Toronto now then Kessel, and they made the right move. Hopefully, marleau will help the young players to continue with their incredible progress and Toronto will have great years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 On 1/21/2017 at 2:46 PM, hobie said: We all like to judge Kessel because we saw him game after game so we became all too aware of his warts. There seems to be some sort of isolated universe otherwise known as Leafdom where we think that Kessel is the only star that abhors defense, hates being and giving hits and what have you but he isn't. I think he could have changed public perception tremendously just by facing the media, answers the post-game questions, and not being a tool. All of his problems in TO started when he decided to pull a disappearing act from the media during the team's struggles. Looking forward to this season. Should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 In the few interviews Phil has endured he has come out looking like a dummy, he's not eloquent and he's never been prepared to walk the political correctness line that all players are expected to adhere to. Rarely do we see a player being candid, most spout the we have to be better garbage rather than saying what they truly feel like if the GM knew what he's doing we'd have a team with players that are capable of winning. Marleau is already going on about how pleased he is to be a Leaf but I can think of 6 mil. plus reasons he's saying that. If S.J. had matched the contract there's no doubt in my mind he'd have resigned with them. I don't pay much attention to interviews and never judge a player by his rhetoric, his actions on the ice is the basis of my appreciation or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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