Flyers Trade Deadline Thread

[ruxpin]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What?

 

 

I don't see anything great about the guy at all...can't even play in his own end....

 

 

That was sick.

[mojo1917]

On 3/4/2017 at 8:40 PM, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Claude MittsOnJesus Giroux

That's "Orange Jesus" thank you very much

[mojo1917]

11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What?

 

 

I don't see anything great about the guy at all...can't even play in his own end....

 

 

 

Is that Kunetezov he's defending there?  If so that guy is straight up Russian speed and skill and IP makes that play look easy.  I feel as though I can see his confidence growing each shift.  He as a 19 year old is beginning to control the play when he's on the ice, makes me feel a little giddy.

[LegionOfDoom]

There's soo many things done right on that play that the striking thing is that Not only are they done RIGHT, but he also scores Style Points in making it look good and smooth.

I'd be happy with those results if our other D did that also, even if they looked like Captain Caveman doing them.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

That's "Orange Jesus" thank you very much

[AJgoal]

20 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What?

 

 

I don't see anything great about the guy at all...can't even play in his own end....

 

 

B-b-b-b-ut he backed into his own zone!

[radoran]

10 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

He as a 19 year old is beginning to control the play when he's on the ice, makes me feel a little giddy.

 

He did a great job as a 19 year old.

 

He turned 20 on January 13

[radoran]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

B-b-b-b-ut he backed into his own zone!

 

So you're saying his hockey nickname is "Jahlil Okafor"?

 

[OccamsRazor]

10 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Is that Kunetezov he's defending there?

 

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

B-b-b-b-ut he backed into his own zone!

 

Well that is the thing Mcdud chirped at him as he got back to the bench...

 

Mcdud: "Not bad but it wasn't completely how i showed you. You were supposed to back toward the goaltender slowly till you completely screened him AND you used your stick and actually were effective...not exactly how i instructed you but we'll work on it in practice."

 

Ivan: "Sorry i just thought it would be more effective to movetowards him while going backwards just standing there gets so boring i promise it won't happen again."

 

Mcdud:"No problem rook it's why they keep me on the payroll to nurture you. All part of the plan."

[fanaticV3.0]

On 3/3/2017 at 0:52 PM, AJgoal said:

We had a silly dot com hockey game once about...20 years ago? Pretty fun. We played roller and broke the net (I built it out of schedule 40 PVC, someone dinged a slapper), but it was a really great time. I have NO IDEA who the other posters who showed up were anymore.

 

Really!? I know some of the posters met up for drinks a few times, but had no idea they met up for a game.

[OccamsRazor]

24 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

So you're saying his hockey nickname is "Jahlil Okafor"?

 

 

 

[Podein25]

17 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Provorov's name will be mentioned alongside the elite of the league within three years. Bank on it. The kid just oozes skill and smarts. As I mentioned in other posts, I don't think I've ever seen a 19 year old take on a workload like he has. Just think how much better Provorov would be if he didn't have to carry around an extra 200 pounds of weight on his back.

 

I don't disagree, I only "caution" you on hyperbole. After all, Carter* is probably never going to score 60 goals  

 

It took Ivan 30-40 games to adjust to the speed of the NHL basically. 

 

 

*Laine might

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

 

[RJ8812]

I'm still baffled by McDonald's contract. I want to know what Holmgren was thinking during those negotiations

 

McDonald's Agent: "We were hoping for something along the lines of $18m over 5 years"

Holmgren: "Interesting. I don't think we can do that. What about $30m over 6 years?"

McDonald's Agent: "What?"

Holmgren: "Yeah...do we have a deal?"

[radoran]

13 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

I'm still baffled by McDonald's contract. I want to know what Holmgren was thinking during those negotiations

 

McDonald's Agent: "We were hoping for something along the lines of $18m over 5 years"

Holmgren: "Interesting. I don't think we can do that. What about $30m over 6 years?"

McDonald's Agent: "What?"

Holmgren: "Yeah...do we have a deal?"

 

I don't think there was any "negotiating" at all.

 

Homer's modus operendi was to determine what he thought was a fair deal, double it and then add a NMC. If he could trade away a 2nd rounder while doing it, all the better.

 

[pilldoc]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

I don't think there was any "negotiating" at all.

 

I think McDud's agent slipped a Mickey to Homer

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, RJ8812 said:

I'm still baffled by McDonald's contract. I want to know what Holmgren was thinking during those negotiations

 

McDonald's Agent: "We were hoping for something along the lines of $18m over 5 years"

Holmgren: "Interesting. I don't think we can do that. What about $30m over 6 years?"

McDonald's Agent: "What?"

Holmgren: "Yeah...do we have a deal?"

 

Holmgren was still reeling from screwing up on Suter then Weber.  Apparently after the Weber offer sheet, no one was taking his calls.  It was sort of a Miracle the Islanders would trade with him at all, but then again, they knew they weren't going to be able to resign Mac.  

 

He rejected 4 years and $16 million from the Islanders and the thing that no one likes to talk about is that his time down the stretch with the Flyers that year was actually quite strong.  He looked superior.  No one will admit it now because they hate him so much and they mostly hate him for his contract, but he looked very good in the early goings after he arrived and with good reason, because he was going to get a big fat contract from someone, and Holmgren was desperate.  

 

Good enough that I think he and his agent thought they could be pretty demanding of Holmgren who apparently the entire league knew at that point, was over a barrel because NO ONE would talk to him.  So, knowing he wasn't going to be able to acquire a better D man without paying even more, Holmgren freaked out and presumably gave Mac whatever he wanted.    Mac responded by relaxing his game (because he was now set for his career) and playing poorly which was compounded by the fact that Berube literally coached his D to skate face the wrong direction when defending, and yeah, Mac started looking god awful.  

 

So yes, Homer was stupid... but just not for the reasons I think we all think.  Apparently the fact that no one would deal with him was the main reason for bringing in Hextall and then handing over the GM ship to him the following season.  I think it's very telling that Hextall took over just after the MacDonald deal.  It may have been a final nail in the coffin as far as Homer realizing he was boned around the league and no one wanted to deal with him anymore and if they would, they'd screw him over hardcore because they knew no one else would and he wouldn't have any other options.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I don't think there was any "negotiating" at all.

 

Homer's modus operendi was to determine what he thought was a fair deal, double it and then add a NMC. If he could trade away a 2nd rounder while doing it, all the better.

 

 

As I detailed above, I think this got worse after the failed Weber coup and Homer had to start offering contracts above value in order to get halfway decent players and Agents knew in FA negotiations, that they could get more out of Homer because no one would trade with him anymore.

 

Add to that that MacDonald was getting 5 million per from SOMEBODY in this league that summer.  Whether or not he would have gotten 6 years from them is an entirely different story.  

 

Also, when he signed this deal, he really did look quite good for the Flyers.  

 

All this points back to the summer of not resigning Jagr and Carle that Hextall never recovered from.  There are those that will tell me I'm crazy because Carle has since been bought out by the Lightning, and they may have a point, but it was at THAT point that Homer went off the rails.  The team had just had the amazing series against the Penguins and was on a run during which the penguins literally could no longer beat the Flyers.    And what did they do?  They self destructed the lineup and threw good money (and players) after bad digging themselves into a hole that they are only beginning to emerge from contract wise and may never fully recover from talent wise.  

 

When he failed to upgrade to Suter and Weber, he traded JVR for Luke Schenn and a musical chairs merry go round of D men signings followed.   

 

Now a lot of folks here complain about "I wouldn't want JVR anyway" to which I say, Bullocks!  He's a 25-30 goal scorer.  Oh he didn't hustle?  Oh he isn't consistent?  WTF cares?  He scores.  At the very least trade him for something of value like a draft pick.

 

Anyway, long story short is that that Weber offer sheet REALLY screwed up the Flyers and that summer was the point of no return for this franchise that it has YET to recover from.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

 

I think McDud's agent slipped a Mickey to Homer

 

Nope.  More like Weber's.  

[radoran]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Holmgren was still reeling from screwing up on Suter then Weber.  Apparently after the Weber offer sheet, no one was taking his calls.  It was sort of a Miracle the Islanders would trade with him at all, but then again, they knew they weren't going to be able to resign Mac.  

 

He rejected 4 years and $16 million from the Islanders and the thing that no one likes to talk about is that his time down the stretch with the Flyers that year was actually quite strong.  He looked superior.  No one will admit it now because they hate him so much and they mostly hate him for his contract, but he looked very good in the early goings after he arrived and with good reason, because he was going to get a big fat contract from someone, and Holmgren was desperate. 

 

No offense, but I really don't think that 4 points in 19 games (-3) is a reasonable definition of "superior." Nor 2 points in seven playoff games.

 

I recently revisited the original trade thread (I'm not searching for it again) and you can see me go from a person who was totally against the trade into someone who reluctantly agreed that signing him to what he turned down on the Island might not have been a terrible idea.

 

I compared him at the time to Kris Russell - who is almost exactly the same age with almost exactly the same stats up to that point.

 

MacDonald has 39 points as a Flyer. In 160 games. Players who make $5M+ need to produce that in a season - not over parts of three.

 

He's a serviceable bottom pair NHL defenseman. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

If he was here on a Kris Russell contract, no one would think twice about him.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

All this points back to the summer of not resigning Jagr and Carle that Hextall Holmgren never recovered from.  There are those that will tell me I'm crazy because Carle has since been bought out by the Lightning, and they may have a point, but it was at THAT point that Homer went off the rails.  The team had just had the amazing series against the Penguins and was on a run during which the penguins literally could no longer beat the Flyers.

 

I have said many, many, many, many, many, many times I will never understand not simply "re-loading that gun."

 

Made no sense at all. Still doesn't.

 

The Weber offer sheet was an egregious failure on every level. The pursuit of Parise/Suter was another one. Then you have Bryzgalov. And MacDonald.

 

But, hey, the Flyers "won the trades" #amirite?

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

No offense, but I really don't think that 4 points in 19 games (-3) is a reasonable definition of "superior." Nor 2 points in seven playoff games.

 

I recently revisited the original trade thread (I'm not searching for it again) and you can see me go from a person who was totally against the trade into someone who reluctantly agreed that signing him to what he turned down on the Island might not have been a terrible idea.

 

I compared him at the time to Kris Russell - who is almost exactly the same age with almost exactly the same stats up to that point.

 

MacDonald has 39 points as a Flyer. In 160 games. Players who make $5M+ need to produce that in a season - not over parts of three.

 

He's a serviceable bottom pair NHL defenseman. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

If he was here on a Kris Russell contract, no one would think twice about him.

 

So we're measuring Defensemen on points now?  

 

Maybe Homer was just saying "screw it!  I'm lazy I don't feel like looking around for a better deal" and maybe he was basically coming up against the fact that Agents were abusing him because they knew he couldn't get a good deal anymore after the Weber offer.  

 

I think it's probably both, but the latter was definitely an influence... because we've been told as much by Homer himself.  

I too would sooner have had someone else paying 5 million for MacDonald, but he was getting it somewhere.  I don't think Homer paid above market value, I think he got snookered on the years because he'd been a complete Moron with Parise, Suter and Weber.  

 

I don't necessarily agree about the Kris Russell contract concept.  

Grossman was on a contract similar to Russell and some here NEVER stopped complaining about him.  

 

But that's an indicator for you.  Grossman got a deal similar to Kris Russell.  Which would you have rather had?  

 

Homer was a bone head and gave bad deals, yes... BUT homer was a bonehead and ticked enough people off that he either got blackballed or folks took advantage of him because they knew he was desperate because he'd been blackballed.  

 

Remember when Yzerman came out in the press and basically said that if Homer offered Stamkos an offer sheet (which we have to assume Homer was floating ideas about doing) that Yzerman was going to give Giroux the biggest offer sheet known to man just to screw over Homer.  

 

Would he have?  I doubt it.  Yzerman's not a moron.  BUT the threat worked and he felt compelled to make that threat at even just w whiff of Homer trying to screw him over. 

 

Frankly, I'm not sure what would have been worse for Yzerman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[radoran]

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

So we're measuring Defensemen on points now? 

 

It's a measuring stick, yes. Especially for a guy who was touted as "running the Islanders power play".

 

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I think it's probably both, but the latter was definitely an influence... because we've been told as much by Homer himself.  

I too would sooner have had someone else paying 5 million for MacDonald, but he was getting it somewhere.  I don't think Homer paid above market value, I think he got snookered on the years because he'd been a complete Moron with Parise, Suter and Weber. 

 

I definitely think the Weber offer sheet - again, a terrible mistake - was an influence on him. He was a pariah in the league not for making the offer in and of itself, but for trying with the signing bonus shenanigans to muscle a player away from another team by making it "impossible" for them to match (how did that work out? - you can see in threads at the time where I was showing that it was eminently possible for the Predators to match).

 

He totally paid above market value for MacDonald - because he had given up a 2nd and a 3rd to get him. Having made that investment, you simply can't let the player walk away.

 

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I don't necessarily agree about the Kris Russell contract concept.  

Grossman was on a contract similar to Russell and some here NEVER stopped complaining about him. 

 

"Some here" never stop complaining about everything.

 

If the Flyers had gotten MacDonald for two years, $2.6M per - we wouldn't be having this conversation

 

But, seriously, compare Russell to MacDonald when the deal was made and see if you don't see almost exactly the same player, with the possible exception that Russell was a more consistent offensive presence. They were IIRC 1/2 or 1/3 in blocked shots that year, had virtually the same points and PPP and were both on middling teams (Flames and Isles).

 

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Homer was a bone head and gave bad deals, yes... BUT homer was a bonehead and ticked enough people off that he either got blackballed or folks took advantage of him because they knew he was desperate because he'd been blackballed. 

 

I don't really dispute this at all.

 

Here's the original "MacDonald is Re-Signed" Thread. Have fun.

 

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Here's the original "MacDonald is Re-Signed" Thread. Have fun.

 

 

Homework?  Awww do I have to?  Though I'm curious what I might have said. 

[radoran]

13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Homework?  Awww do I have to?  Though I'm curious what I might have said. 

 

Imagine how I felt seeing where I succumbed to the concept that he might be worth 4 years, $16M

 

If nothing else, that would have meant he was done after next season, instead of 2020.