ScottM Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 I'm finally getting around to getting some real progress on the top 100 players list that I've been wanting to do for a while, and to start, I'm ranking players by position. There are some tough ones to rank, largely because we missed their primes behind the Iron Curtain. A guy like Peter Stastny is fairly easy, because while we did miss some of his best years, he had enough left to show us what he was in the NHL, and really all you have to do is adjust to four or five extra years. Then, there's a guy like Igor Larionov. We missed virtually all of his prime. I certainly don't think it's fair to judge him solely by his NHL career, but it's hard to figure out how to evaluate the Soviet years. More or less, what I'm looking for are thoughts as to players that he's comparable to in caliber. My initial thought is that a comparison to Adam Oates seems fair. He was a great playmaker, very good defensively, and had good longevity. I'm interested in others' thoughts too. I'm guessing @yave1964 will definitely find some interest in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Hockey Stats Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Actually, you have to take the top CSKA Moscow line (maybe top two), top Spartak line and top Dynamo Moscow line from the 1970s, as well as probably Bobrov, Guryshev and Balderis. The list of top 100 must consider: F Mikhailov CSKA Petrov CSKA Kharlamov CSKA Makarov CSKA Krutov CSKA Larionov CSKA Starshinov Spartak Yakushev Spartak Shadrin Spartak Shalimov Spartak Balderis Dinamo Riga Bobrov CSKA (CDKA/CDSA) Guryshev Krylya Sovetov Vikulov CSKA Zhluktov CSKA Firsov CSKA Alexandrov CSKA Almetov CSKA Loktev CSKA Maltsev Dinamo Moscow Yurzinov Dinamo Moscow A. Golikov Dinamo Moscow B. Majorov Spartak E. Majorov Spartak D Fetisov CSKA Kasatonov CSKA Starikov CSKA Gusarov CSKA Pervukhin Dinamo Moscow Vasil'ev Dinamo Moscow Bilyaletdinov Dinamo Moscow Lyapkin CSKA Lutchenko CSKA Ragulin CSKA G Tretiak CSKA Myshkin Dinamo Moscow And then you need to go over the CSSR players too, there should be at least a dozen candidates from that country as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 They didn't call him the Professor or whatever for noting. One of the smartest, student of the game etc. Part of this is because he was a product of the Soviet system. Maybe that's your angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 @ScottM Igor Larionov is a tough one for all of the reasons that you mentioned. Wow what a hell of a player. His nickname was the professor not just because he was slight of build and wore ill fitting glasses off the ice that always slipped down his nose giving him a studious look, he studied the game and was possibly the best passer that I ever personally watched while wearing a Wings jersey, that includes Yzerman, Federov, Datsyuk and everybody. He was a pretty lousy shot by the time he came to the Wings in 1996 at 36 years old, he had 21 goals his first year and 71 points in only 68 games as a third line center but after that although his assist totals remained high as he approached and passed 40 he never again had more than 14 goals and it was usually around 9 or 10 but his assist totals remained insanely high for an old man. He ALWAYS knew where the open man was going to be, where the seams were that the defense was cheating and not covering. Even at 43 years old he managed 10 goals and 33 assists. His defense was remarkable, as all USSR trained Russian players were of that era. The two things that I most remember of him were in 2002 against the Hurricanes he became the oldest man to score a goal in the Stanley Cup finals and he did it in style with a brilliant goal in overtime to beat the Hurricanes in the third longest game in NHL history. The other thing that I remember about him was HE started the fighting in the famous game between Colorado and Detroit that resulted in McCarty and Lemieux having their big broohaahaa by giving no quarter to and taking on Peter Forsberg who had four inches and forty pounds on him. Larionov got tangled up with Forsberg who gave him a bit of a shove to let Larionov know that he did not appreciate the physicality and Larionov jumped him and got the best of the much bigger man, in fact Forsberg wrenched his back in the play and missed a couple of weeks. He was five foot nine and maybe 160 pounds on a good day but he did not back down from anyone ever. He stood his ground and dared you to go through him. So in his late thirties he was the greatest passer whom I ever witnessed in a Wings uniform, he was a tough cookie for as small as he was, he was a lousy shot but usually made his goals count. And previous to coming to the NHL he was the star center for nearly a decade on the final years of brilliance and utter domination by the Soviets in international competition. To me the whole picture adds up to a clear cut Hall of Famer and possibly a top 100 of all time but those years not in the NHL are indeed difficult to quantify. A lot of the superstars from his KHL days came to the United States and bombed and went away relatively soon, Makarov flamed out, Krutov lasted one year, Fetisov lasted almost as long as Larionov but was not nearly as good of a player. If there was a team I would have loved to watch it might have been the final year of CSKA Moscow who had Larionov, Fetisov and Makorov in their primes and read this list carefully the kid stars were Federov, Bure, Molgilny, Konstantinov and Valeri Kamensky among others, just an insane amount of talent jumbled together as their world was changing right before their eyes. Yeah, I give Larionov credit as one of the greatest hockey players of all time. I cannot say he was one of the 100 greatest NHLers ever, the Iron Curtain keeping him out during his prime years is kind of like the old ***** leagues in baseball, it is hard to judge but not impossible. So if the question is this, is he one of the top 100 hockey players ever I say absolutely no question but he was probably not one of the top three or four hundred NHLers but he was still one hell of a player for a skinny old man nicknamed the professor and I still grin when I think of him scoring that triple overtime winner against Carolina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, yave1964 said: @ScottM Igor Larionov is a tough one for all of the reasons that you mentioned. Wow what a hell of a player. His nickname was the professor not just because he was slight of build and wore ill fitting glasses off the ice that always slipped down his nose giving him a studious look, he studied the game and was possibly the best passer that I ever personally watched while wearing a Wings jersey, that includes Yzerman, Federov, Datsyuk and everybody. He was a pretty lousy shot by the time he came to the Wings in 1996 at 36 years old, he had 21 goals his first year and 71 points in only 68 games as a third line center but after that although his assist totals remained high as he approached and passed 40 he never again had more than 14 goals and it was usually around 9 or 10 but his assist totals remained insanely high for an old man. He ALWAYS knew where the open man was going to be, where the seams were that the defense was cheating and not covering. Even at 43 years old he managed 10 goals and 33 assists. His defense was remarkable, as all USSR trained Russian players were of that era. The two things that I most remember of him were in 2002 against the Hurricanes he became the oldest man to score a goal in the Stanley Cup finals and he did it in style with a brilliant goal in overtime to beat the Hurricanes in the third longest game in NHL history. The other thing that I remember about him was HE started the fighting in the famous game between Colorado and Detroit that resulted in McCarty and Lemieux having their big broohaahaa by giving no quarter to and taking on Peter Forsberg who had four inches and forty pounds on him. Larionov got tangled up with Forsberg who gave him a bit of a shove to let Larionov know that he did not appreciate the physicality and Larionov jumped him and got the best of the much bigger man, in fact Forsberg wrenched his back in the play and missed a couple of weeks. He was five foot nine and maybe 160 pounds on a good day but he did not back down from anyone ever. He stood his ground and dared you to go through him. So in his late thirties he was the greatest passer whom I ever witnessed in a Wings uniform, he was a tough cookie for as small as he was, he was a lousy shot but usually made his goals count. And previous to coming to the NHL he was the star center for nearly a decade on the final years of brilliance and utter domination by the Soviets in international competition. To me the whole picture adds up to a clear cut Hall of Famer and possibly a top 100 of all time but those years not in the NHL are indeed difficult to quantify. A lot of the superstars from his KHL days came to the United States and bombed and went away relatively soon, Makarov flamed out, Krutov lasted one year, Fetisov lasted almost as long as Larionov but was not nearly as good of a player. If there was a team I would have loved to watch it might have been the final year of CSKA Moscow who had Larionov, Fetisov and Makorov in their primes and read this list carefully the kid stars were Federov, Bure, Molgilny, Konstantinov and Valeri Kamensky among others, just an insane amount of talent jumbled together as their world was changing right before their eyes. Yeah, I give Larionov credit as one of the greatest hockey players of all time. I cannot say he was one of the 100 greatest NHLers ever, the Iron Curtain keeping him out during his prime years is kind of like the old ***** leagues in baseball, it is hard to judge but not impossible. So if the question is this, is he one of the top 100 hockey players ever I say absolutely no question but he was probably not one of the top three or four hundred NHLers but he was still one hell of a player for a skinny old man nicknamed the professor and I still grin when I think of him scoring that triple overtime winner against Carolina. Insanely good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Hockey Stats Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 2 hours ago, yave1964 said: @ScottM To me the whole picture adds up to a clear cut Hall of Famer and possibly a top 100 of all time but those years not in the NHL are indeed difficult to quantify. A lot of the superstars from his KHL days came to the United States and bombed and went away relatively soon, Makarov flamed out, Krutov lasted one year, Fetisov lasted almost as long as Larionov but was not nearly as good of a player. If there was a team I would have loved to watch it might have been the final year of CSKA Moscow who had Larionov, Fetisov and Makorov in their primes and read this list carefully the kid stars were Federov, Bure, Molgilny, Konstantinov and Valeri Kamensky among others, just an insane amount of talent jumbled together as their world was changing right before their eyes. Yeah, I give Larionov credit as one of the greatest hockey players of all time. I cannot say he was one of the 100 greatest NHLers ever, the Iron Curtain keeping him out during his prime years is kind of like the old ***** leagues in baseball, it is hard to judge but not impossible. So if the question is this, is he one of the top 100 hockey players ever I say absolutely no question but he was probably not one of the top three or four hundred NHLers but he was still one hell of a player for a skinny old man nicknamed the professor and I still grin when I think of him scoring that triple overtime winner against Carolina. Comparing Larionov to the rest of KMLFK: Makarov and Fetisov were two years older than Larionov and had 3-4 more years in CSKA before him. Kasatonov was also older (he was a terrific player, but more like a Vlasic when Fetisov was more like Burns). Krutov was the only one who couldn't adapt to the world turning upside down - no wonder he died at 52 from drinking problems. But you cannot just name KMLFK (and their contemporaries) that proved to be completely on par with the best of the NHL in 1984, and 1987 without naming the predecessors who did the same in 1972 and 1979, and then go back and add at least Bobrov and Guryshev, and you have to remember the Czechoslovakian players that weren't allowed to play in the NHL as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 @yave1964 You made a lot of good points in that post. I knew it was a good idea to tag you in it. Lol The more I think about it, while I still think that my Oates comparison holds up in a lot of ways, I think it also failed to recognize how good of a goal scorer in the Soviet League. Oates had that 45 goal season, but other than that, he only had one 30-goal season, and I certainly think Larionov could have scored 30 pretty consistently in his prime, possibly more, considering the style of the NHL at the time. I certainly think that he would have been ready for prime time by the time he was 20. Looking at his Soviet stats, I suspect that he would have been at least a 400 goal guy in the NHL, maybe 500. Cutting to the simple point, he was an incredibly well-balanced player. @More Hockey Stats I won't be stopping at Larionov. I'm starting with centers, and I'm starting with guys in the Hall of Fame. He just happened to be the first guy that fits this bill that I came across because of that. But yes, I agree with you. I think there are a lot of guys that are deserving of spots in the Hall of Fame that will never get there, simply because of the fact that they're unfamiliar to North American audiences. Larionov caught a break in that respect when fans over here got to see enough of him to realize how intelligent of a player he was, even if they didn't see him at his best. I read something yesterday that both of you might find interesting. Quite frankly, the hockey history fan in me found it offensive. It was an article on the "most overrated" players in the HoF. I didn't agree with everything, but it had some good points, except where Larionov was concerned. The writer ragged on him for the fact that he only scored 169 goals in the NHL, and -- at least from my perspective -- seemed to suggest that his Soviet League accomplishments and his years on the KLM line were little more than an asterisk. I think that kind of attitude has robber NHL fans of a lot. Celebrate the Miracle on Ice and the 1972 Canada Cup all you want. Those were certainly nice Cold War victories for the West. But, why can't we give the guys who were on the ice their due credit? We weren't really fighting them, but the Soviet system. I think we should do ourselves and them the decency of recognizing them for what they were -- incredible hockey players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Hockey Stats Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 3 hours ago, ScottM said: @More Hockey Stats I won't be stopping at Larionov. I'm starting with centers, and I'm starting with guys in the Hall of Fame. He just happened to be the first guy that fits this bill that I came across because of that. But yes, I agree with you. I think there are a lot of guys that are deserving of spots in the Hall of Fame that will never get there, simply because of the fact that they're unfamiliar to North American audiences. Larionov caught a break in that respect when fans over here got to see enough of him to realize how intelligent of a player he was, even if they didn't see him at his best. I read something yesterday that both of you might find interesting. Quite frankly, the hockey history fan in me found it offensive. It was an article on the "most overrated" players in the HoF. I didn't agree with everything, but it had some good points, except where Larionov was concerned. The writer ragged on him for the fact that he only scored 169 goals in the NHL, and -- at least from my perspective -- seemed to suggest that his Soviet League accomplishments and his years on the KLM line were little more than an asterisk. I think that kind of attitude has robber NHL fans of a lot. Celebrate the Miracle on Ice and the 1972 Canada Cup all you want. Those were certainly nice Cold War victories for the West. But, why can't we give the guys who were on the ice their due credit? We weren't really fighting them, but the Soviet system. I think we should do ourselves and them the decency of recognizing them for what they were -- incredible hockey players. The question here is, what is the Hall of Fame is? Is it the NHL hall of fame? Then, naturally, no Soviet hockey player born before 1965, with the exception of Larionov and Fetisov should even be considered as candidates. But if you are talking about the World Hockey Hall of Fame, then it should be some kind of a blend of NHL and IIHF. Remember, Kharlamov was offered a $1M salary in the NHL in the late 70s. Tretiak asked to let go to the NHL after he got his third Olympic gold in 1984 (0.67 GAA!), got denied and quitted hockey soon after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 5 hours ago, More Hockey Stats said: The question here is, what is the Hall of Fame is? Is it the NHL hall of fame? Then, naturally, no Soviet hockey player born before 1965, with the exception of Larionov and Fetisov should even be considered as candidates. But if you are talking about the World Hockey Hall of Fame, then it should be some kind of a blend of NHL and IIHF. Remember, Kharlamov was offered a $1M salary in the NHL in the late 70s. Tretiak asked to let go to the NHL after he got his third Olympic gold in 1984 (0.67 GAA!), got denied and quitted hockey soon after. Valid points to be sure but that is not the question, the question is based off of the statistical evidence where does Larionov rank, and while I agree with you that the Soviet bloc hockey players, Kharlamov, Tretiak, Mikhailov and vasiliev from the previous generation deserve to be in the conversation and probably all in the HOF as well we have little to go on as far as what we witnessed or what has been passed down to us first hand, Hell even Tretiak is best remembered for his failures, let us not forget thawith him in net and the Soviets holding home ice his Ruskies blew a 3 game lead in the Summit series, his team lost the miracle on ice, the only other game, 'the greatest game ever played' that many remember him for was in 1976 when Russia tied the Canadiens. I am not saying to hold it against him, lol, just saying he is best remembered in our own continent for losing. And many say that Fetisov was the greatest of the great but he was old and slow when he came over and although he hung around forever, as a Wings fan who witnessed most of his NHL portion of his career he was a third pair guy, granted behind some pretty formidable HOFers in Lidstrom and Murphy and then Cheli oh and Konstantinov before his injury was in his prime ahead of him. So what we witnessed first hand would not qualify as one of the greatest 100 of anything. Euro Hockey pre fall of the evil empire is just too difficult to rank and nobody is insulting anyone save for that damn fool Don Cherry. I think the best that we can say is these were the best of the Soviet greats based off of limited chances to see them ourselves and off of lines of statistics in a musty and dusty book, I have no problem at all with Tretiak and Kharlamov or Mikhailov in the hall of fame but it is not an insult to say that e do not have the evidence to rank them with the greatest of the great from NA The system isnot subtle enough to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Hockey Stats Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 1 minute ago, yave1964 said: Valid points to be sure but that is not the question, the question is based off of the statistical evidence where does Larionov rank, and while I agree with you that the Soviet bloc hockey players, Kharlamov, Tretiak, Mikhailov and vasiliev from the previous generation deserve to be in the conversation and probably all in the HOF as well we have little to go on as far as what we witnessed or what has been passed down to us first hand, Hell even Tretiak is best remembered for his failures, let us not forget thawith him in net and the Soviets holding home ice his Ruskies blew a 3 game lead in the Summit series, his team lost the miracle on ice, the only other game, 'the greatest game ever played' that many remember him for was in 1976 when Russia tied the Canadiens. I am not saying to hold it against him, lol, just saying he is best remembered in our own continent for losing. And many say that Fetisov was the greatest of the great but he was old and slow when he came over and although he hung around forever, as a Wings fan who witnessed most of his NHL portion of his career he was a third pair guy, granted behind some pretty formidable HOFers in Lidstrom and Murphy and then Cheli oh and Konstantinov before his injury was in his prime ahead of him. So what we witnessed first hand would not qualify as one of the greatest 100 of anything. Euro Hockey pre fall of the evil empire is just too difficult to rank and nobody is insulting anyone save for that damn fool Don Cherry. I think the best that we can say is these were the best of the Soviet greats based off of limited chances to see them ourselves and off of lines of statistics in a musty and dusty book, I have no problem at all with Tretiak and Kharlamov or Mikhailov in the hall of fame but it is not an insult to say that e do not have the evidence to rank them with the greatest of the great from NA The system isnot subtle enough to do so. Did this continent forget the 1979 Summit Series? The 1981 Canada Cup? The 1987 Rendez-Vouz? There is doubt, the depth of the NHL was a magnitude above the one of the USSR, however the top 25-30 of the USSR usually held their ground against the top 25-30 of the NHL. And if these 25-30 of the NHL make the HoF, the 25-30 Soviets on the other side should be considered too. Here's the tally between 1972 and 1987 (WHA excluded), the majority of the games played in NA rinks: C R T 1972 4-3-1 1976 1-0-0 1979 1-2-0 1981 1-1-0 1984 1-1-0 1987 2-1-1 (CC) 1987 1-1-0 (RV) --------------- 7 ev 11-9-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 It's supposed to be the hockey hall of fame. And Tretiak is in there despite never playing in the NHL. But, I think it's treated way too much as the NHL hall of fame. Of course, the female inductees haven't played in the NHL, but from what I've seen, they tend to be less celebrated upon entry, probably because they didn't play in the NHL. We just have too much of a case of tunnel vision in North America. Edit: Let me add that I think it's a crying shame that Tretiak is most remembered for a couple of losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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