Sielski's Take on Coots' Demotion to Second

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

SC's status as a second-line center is a frequent topic on this board.  This article from the Inquirer suggests Filppula's second line play is a "cold slap."  Others might say it was long overdue.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170307_Sielski__Filppula_s_chance_a_cold_slap_to_Couturier.html

 

I think the question at this juncture may not be second vs. third: It's Coots' salary relative to non-top six status. His defensive ability is A-OK.  But it appears the Flyers' brass may be throwing in the towel on his offensive skill.

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

37 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

SC's status as a second-line center is a frequent topic on this board.  This article from the Inquirer suggests Filppula's second line play is a "cold slap."  Others might say it was long overdue.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170307_Sielski__Filppula_s_chance_a_cold_slap_to_Couturier.html

 

I think the question at this juncture may not be second vs. third: It's Coots' salary relative to non-top six status. His defensive ability is A-OK.  But it appears the Flyers' brass may be throwing in the towel on his offensive skill.

 

 

 

And that's perfectly OK if Couturier is a 40 point center with elite defensive acumen. People seem to think that being a third line center is some sort of demotion. Fact is, not everyone can play that position and it's probably the toughest position in all of hockey to play. So, if Couturier has a Joel Otto-like career, perfect. You win with those guys who will battle in the trenches. The third line center is a position that most teams have a heck of a time trying to fill and if Couturier is comfortable in that role, then let him play there and be great at it. This whole 'cold slap' or demotion or whatever isn't really a demotion for a guy who excelled there. I get people are going to go off about Couturier being the 9th pick in his draft year, blah blah blah. Fact is, there are only two guys I'd take ahead of Couturier - Scheifele and Landeskog. Even then, Landeskog has regressed something fierce and I'm not sure he's that far ahead of Couturier anymore. I know I wouldn't take Huberdeau or Hopkins ahead of Couturier. I certainly wouldn't take Zibanejad over him either.

 

Everyone complains about Couturier, but if he's willing and able and thrives at playing the toughest position in hockey, don't stop him. Embrace him and build up that line so it's one hell of a great checking line.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

And that's perfectly OK if Couturier is a 40 point center with elite defensive acumen. People seem to think that being a third line center is some sort of demotion. Fact is, not everyone can play that position and it's probably the toughest position in all of hockey to play. So, if Couturier has a Joel Otto-like career, perfect. You win with those guys who will battle in the trenches. The third line center is a position that most teams have a heck of a time trying to fill and if Couturier is comfortable in that role, then let him play there and be great at it. This whole 'cold slap' or demotion or whatever isn't really a demotion for a guy who excelled there. I get people are going to go off about Couturier being the 9th pick in his draft year, blah blah blah. Fact is, there are only two guys I'd take ahead of Couturier - Scheifele and Landeskog. Even then, Landeskog has regressed something fierce and I'm not sure he's that far ahead of Couturier anymore. I know I wouldn't take Huberdeau or Hopkins ahead of Couturier. I certainly wouldn't take Zibanejad over him either.

 

Everyone complains about Couturier, but if he's willing and able and thrives at playing the toughest position in hockey, don't stop him. Embrace him and build up that line so it's one hell of a great checking line.

Best.Post.Ever.

[Howie58]

Well, we have two strong supporters.  I don't mind having a strong defensive specialist either. 

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Well, we have two strong supporters.  I don't mind having a strong defensive specialist either. 

I'm really frustrated with Coots and have soured on him.  But BobbyClarke's post was really good. 

 

I think I was overly frustrated because I bought into this organization's expectations of him.  He's just not that player.  If he can be a terrific 3rd line defensive center, I'll take it. 

 

We can't score worth a darn, so we may as well do something to try to keep it out of our own net. 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

SC's status as a second-line center is a frequent topic on this board.  This article from the Inquirer suggests Filppula's second line play is a "cold slap."  Others might say it was long overdue.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170307_Sielski__Filppula_s_chance_a_cold_slap_to_Couturier.html

 

I think the question at this juncture may not be second vs. third: It's Coots' salary relative to non-top six status. His defensive ability is A-OK.  But it appears the Flyers' brass may be throwing in the towel on his offensive skill.

 

 

 

 

I think this is too simplistic a perspective.  It's a dead horse, but I'll take another whack.  coots is probably the best player both offense and defense this team has had at even strength this year. 

 

Yes I said offense.  I'm commuting and I'm tired of the details myself, but the fact of the matter is this is a PP scoring team period. NO ONE scores at even strength. Of the few even strength goals that happen Jake and Coots score the most.  Between the two of them decidely fewer goals against are scored when Coots is in the ice. 

 

Long and short, Coots is NOT a good PP guy,  but he has by most measures, been better than anyone else at even strength.  Which says to me and to anyone paying attention that COOTS' lack of anything is t the problem.  This team has a big problem playing hockey in general  at even strength. 

 

Mall thsnin mind, Coots has never stopped being the 3C.  Whether they've put him with TK & Jake or they put him with Read and Cousins, his draws and his zone starts are pretty consistently shut down oriented.  Because the do t trust anyone else I guess. 

 

I think seeing this as a demotion is simplistic.  This is Hextall and Hak trying desperately to do anything to get the team scoring more at even strength.   It's more an acknowledgment of what's been going on all along. 

 

By bringing in FIlpp, they can get Jake and Schenner off D zone starts and covering Ovechkin. 

 

But it until they have a different great shut down guy, this is just what Coots and who vet he plays with will be doing.  

 

At at the end of the day, if you need a simplistic explanation, it's not a demotion for Coots so much as it is a promotion for whoever he plays with. 

 

 

[Howie58]

I enjoy watching Coots on the PK. He works hard and does his thing. And we put him on the opponent's top line...agreed that is no easy task.  I think some might ask if a $4.3 million cap is in the neighborhood.  It probably is.  But we don't appreciate his effort because as rux notes...we expect more.

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm really frustrated with Coots and have soured on him.  But BobbyClarke's post was really good. 

 

I think I was overly frustrated because I bought into this organization's expectations of him.  He's just not that player.  If he can be a terrific 3rd line defensive center, I'll take it. 

 

We can't score worth a darn, so we may as well do something to try to keep it out of our own net. 

 

Tell me, who is better on this team at even strength than Coots?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

In fairness, Couturier could have been a fantastic second line center, but Laviolette and Holmgren were so impatient that they wanted to get him and Schenn into the lineup to justify the Carter and Richards trades and they did both guys no favours. Could you picture if Couturier was actually given a chance to work on his skating and if Schenn had an opportunity to work on rounding out his game completely before getting to the NHL? They'd be dynamite. Instead, the Flyers stunted their development. Even then, Schenn is a 29 goal scorer with 35 goal upside. Couturier is a defensive rock that the Flyers can build their third line around and still be able to chip in 15 goals and 40 points per year. I still think that if you put a third line of Weal - Couturier - Schenn together, I think you've got an elite third line that is built on speed (Weal), defensive acumen (Couturier) and goal scoring (Schenn). That's my hope for next season with the third line. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm also going to admit that I'm a huge Couturier fan. I loved the kid when his draft year rolled around and I used to argue with others how he got the shaft his rookie year when he consistently out performed Schenn, yet Schenn always got more ice time than him and always got the better linemates. I'm still convinced that Couturier has a 50 and 60 point season in him and that it will happen. At the same time, I'm also of the opinion that if he never hits the 50 or 60 point mark, he's still an elite defensive player and watching him play is an absolute treat. He's an incredibly important player on this club and Sielski's write up is nothing more than a hack job about one of the better and harder working players on the club. It's insulting and demeans the job Couturier performs. "little more than a third-line center and penalty-killer." **** Mike Sielski. He'll never be treated as a real journalist.

[ruxpin]

4 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Tell me, who is better on this team at even strength than Coots?

Voracek and Simmonds. And Giroux has more even strength points. But let's not overstate this by pretending this is a feat and not because the rest of the team flat out sucks.

 

He's fifth on the team with TEN goals. 64 games in and we have five players with double digit goals, and the fifth has TEN. 

 

He's a center. He has EIGHT assists on the year, FIVE at even strength. Five.  Let that sink in for a second.  With Voracek and Konecny on his wing for large swaths of time, and Schenn, Simmonds, Cousins and Read other times, this even strength wizard center has FIVE assists. 

 

You or I could probably get 5 assists in 64 games centering the second line just by accident. 

 

So can we please stop repeating over and over again that Mr. FIFTEEN Even Strength Point Scoring Machine has second line offense in him?  Or that 3rd on the team in even strength goals is a feat when we're talking about 10?  Yay for being third and all that, but it still sucks. And his job is to feed his line. 5 assists. 

 

Sorry. No. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

His defensive ability is A-OK.

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

43 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

In fairness, Couturier could have been a fantastic second line center, but Laviolette and Holmgren were so impatient that they wanted to get him and Schenn into the lineup to justify the Carter and Richards trades and they did both guys no favours. Could you picture if Couturier was actually given a chance to work on his skating and if Schenn had an opportunity to work on rounding out his game completely before getting to the NHL? They'd be dynamite. Instead, the Flyers stunted their development. Even then, Schenn is a 29 goal scorer with 35 goal upside. Couturier is a defensive rock that the Flyers can build their third line around and still be able to chip in 15 goals and 40 points per year. I still think that if you put a third line of Weal - Couturier - Schenn together, I think you've got an elite third line that is built on speed (Weal), defensive acumen (Couturier) and goal scoring (Schenn). That's my hope for next season with the third line. 

Another great post. All true. Except for putting Schenn on a defensive third line. You just killed the point of having Coots there. Schenn is a liability defensively. 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Another great post. All true. Except for putting Schenn on a defensive third line. You just killed the point of having Coots there. Schenn is a liability defensively. 

 

 

So what this basically does is buy the Flyers time to find the 1st line center the require...Filppula will be the 2nd line center next year and worst case scenario the following year and then you can slot Giroux into the 2nd line role Coots the 3rd and (fingers crossed) they know by then who will be the 1st line center.

 

Right surely there is a plan.

[FD19372]

Sielski makes me LMAO sometimes. Bringing in Filppula is a slap in the face to Couturier? How about a kick in the ol' arse? They are paying #14 $26 million dollars over a span of the next 4 years to be a CHECKING CENTER, and occasionally a shutdown center. They should have never even tried Sean on the second line. He has almost NO offensive game to speak of.

[Howie58]

Brother...I read this thread and wonder if I should have sent out electronic Zantac or Xanax with my post....Discussing 14 brings out some strong emotions.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

They should have never even tried Sean on the second line. He has almost NO offensive game to speak of.

 

I'm glad they finally did the first sentence so it could prove once and for all the second.

 

Hey, I've completely flipped sides here.   I was in the "TRY HIM ON THE SECOND LINE!" camp.  "He has the worst zone starts, yadda yadda, let him show you his offense."

 

They let him.

 

He showed them.

 

It was offensive.

 

I'm okay with him as third line center.  I'm actually okay with his money there if they go all in on that line as a shut down line (that means NO SCHENN on that line!) and they do a terrific job.  Really.  I don't dislike the guy.  He's just not a scoring center.  I keep thinking of Jordan Staal, though, but Jordan had better numbers.  I keep thinking Staal was ultimately replaceable when his salary got high enough that it didn't justify him playing 3C.  We're at cap now.  If we eventually do get a scoring winger, it's going to probably come at the cost of the money being spent on Coots.   Because I still think you can fill this role for cheaper.

[FD19372]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

So what this basically does is buy the Flyers time to find the 1st line center the require...Filppula will be the 2nd line center next year and worst case scenario the following year and then you can slot Giroux into the 2nd line role Coots the 3rd and (fingers crossed) they know by then who will be the 1st line center.

 

Right surely there is a plan.

Rightly. Bigly.Whatever it is, they need to get somebody, anybody with more goal scoring ability than anyone on their current roster

[King Knut]

37 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

And that's perfectly OK if Couturier is a 40 point center with elite defensive acumen. People seem to think that being a third line center is some sort of demotion. Fact is, not everyone can play that position and it's probably the toughest position in all of hockey to play. So, if Couturier has a Joel Otto-like career, perfect. You win with those guys who will battle in the trenches. The third line center is a position that most teams have a heck of a time trying to fill and if Couturier is comfortable in that role, then let him play there and be great at it. This whole 'cold slap' or demotion or whatever isn't really a demotion for a guy who excelled there. I get people are going to go off about Couturier being the 9th pick in his draft year, blah blah blah. Fact is, there are only two guys I'd take ahead of Couturier - Scheifele and Landeskog. Even then, Landeskog has regressed something fierce and I'm not sure he's that far ahead of Couturier anymore. I know I wouldn't take Huberdeau or Hopkins ahead of Couturier. I certainly wouldn't take Zibanejad over him either.

 

Everyone complains about Couturier, but if he's willing and able and thrives at playing the toughest position in hockey, don't stop him. Embrace him and build up that line so it's one hell of a great checking line.

 

Yes yes yes.  In addition though, too many are diagnosing the symptom as the disease on. Is team.  coots isn't scoring a lot.  

 

At even strength no one is.  And Coots scores more than most including Giroux and his differential is the best.  

 

The disease is this team is terrible at even strength.  I think it's because the D has been so uneven.  We shall see I suppose if it gets any better.  

 

At at least now the 2nd line can Stop drawing 3rd line assignments. 

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Voracek and Simmonds. And Giroux has more even strength points. But let's not overstate this by pretending this is a feat and not because the rest of the team flat out sucks.

 

Wrong and wrong.  He has more goals for per 60mins than Simmonds and Giroux and fewer goals against per 60 than Simmonds, Giroux and Jake. 

 

and you you can keep refusing to see my point but that won't make it any less valid.  

 

The point is that THE TEAM sucks at even strength.  Singling out Couturier doesn't make sense when he is sucking the same or less than everyone else. 

The symptom is he's not scoring as many ch as you'd like. 

 

The disease is no one is.  

 

Replacing him as 2C is like taking painkillers when your leg is broken. It doesn't address the problem. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vis]

GF60 and GA60 is the metric by which we measure how good a player is at even strength?  This is akin to using plus/minus, in that GF60 and GA60 are driven as much by linemates as is plus/minus.  But if you want to use that metric, then Konecny is your best even strength player, followed by Nick Schultz.  Interestingly, Val Filppula is after Schultz and ahead of Couturier.

 

Source: https://puckalytics.com/#/skaters?orderby=GF60&sortorder=true&paginate=undefined&season=201617&situation=5v5&TOIMin=50&Team=phil&GPMin=0&GPMax=999&TOIDecMin=0&TOIDecMax=99999&showFilters=true&Player_Name=&Pos=

 

By the way, my point isn't that Couturier is or is not a better even strength player than any other player, but rather that GF60, GA60 and GF60% don't strike me as the be-all, end-all to making (or refuting) such a claim.

 

For the record, Couturier has no business as the 2C.

 

 

[ruxpin]

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Wrong and wrong.  He has more goals for per 60mins than Simmonds and Giroux and fewer goals against per 60 than Simmonds, Giroux and Jake. 

 

and you you can keep refusing to see my point but that won't make it any less valid.  

 

The point is that THE TEAM sucks at even strength.  Singling out Couturier doesn't make sense when he is sucking the same or less than everyone else. 

The symptom is he's not scoring as many ch as you'd like. 

 

The disease is no one is.  

 

Replacing him as 2C is like taking painkillers when your leg is broken. It doesn't address the problem. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.   Maybe the second line sucks because the second line center has FIVE assists.  And you're moving the goal posts on the "who's better at even strength."   

 

He's a 3C.  That's fine.   But he has more than proven to be incapable of being 2C.  He tosses the puck away, can't find the open guy, doesn't have the foot speed to close or the quickness to make the play.     Some people are more reactionary than creative.  That may explain some quick moves on the defensive side but not on the offense.  I wouldn't venture to diagnose the cause.  But a team with a 2C with only 5 even-strength assists (8 including PP), is going to struggle.    

 

It certainly addresses A problem and is nothing at all like taking painkillers when your leg is broken.  Not replacing him at 2C is like is being in a car accident and refusing to deal with the broken knee at all because your hip is broken.  "Putting my knee in a cast  will do nothing for my hip."    Yeah, do both.

 

Address the problems -- this one being 2C -- one at a time.  The order doesn't matter to me, just get on with fixing it.

 

I'm not singling out Couturier and am tired of being accused of that.  I'm not looking to trade him or anything, I'm looking to play him where he'll succeed the most.  Of course there are other problems.  Who is saying there isn't?   And of course moving him to 3C doesn't solve all of them or even most of them...or anything other than putting him where he can succeed.   We'll still have 9 bottom 6 players not counting Coots.   

 

And I certainly didn't call him a disease.   

 

He has 5 assists in 64 games.  .07 assists/game.  That's astounding at second line center.  You can cite all the trope you want to, but at some point he has to be at least included among the reasons this team isn't doing well.   Because he's a disease?  No.    But they tried him somewhere he doesn't work and had to keep him there because they really didn't have an option.   They went and got a stop-gap option.   

 

Now Coots can play 3C where he excels and everyone, Flyers front office included, can stop deluding themselves that 18 total points in 64 games is a 2C.  

 

Now, if they can only realize that they also don't have a 1C.

 

[pilldoc]

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I think I was overly frustrated because I bought into this organization's expectations of him.  He's just not that player.  If he can be a terrific 3rd line defensive center, I'll take it.

 

You, me and a hell of a lot of other Flyer fans.  I kept hoping for miracle of sorts that his offensive talent would suddenly come out of hibernation.  He is what he is....  I am finally ok with the fact he will be 3C specialist and has been mentioned, those types of players are hard to find.   I have long said that this team does not often put players in a position to succeed.  9th overall aside, he is what he is .......

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

You, me and a hell of a lot of other Flyer fans.  I kept hoping for miracle of sorts that his offensive talent would suddenly come out of hibernation.  He is what he is....  I am finally ok with the fact he will be 3C specialist and has been mentioned, those types of players are hard to find.   I have long said that this team does not often put players in a position to succeed.  9th overall aside, he is what he is .......

 

Exactly.  I'm not mad at him or anything.  I'm not even mad at the organization for trying with the 2C experiment.  He scored in juniors.  He wasn't given an offensive opportunity.  All that was plausible story to believe if given the chance he could do it.   There were those who look at skating, etc., that weren't bullish on the idea (to say the least) that have been proven right. But good on the organization, and Couturier, for trying.

 

So back to 3C.   There's no shame in that.   Maybe ultimately a really good 3C is more important than a really good 2C.   I'll take competent at 2C, though.    Is 35-45 points really insane to ask from your 2C?   I know wingers would help, but he didn't have sludge on the wing, either.   He had Voracek for large amounts of time as well as Konecny.  They couldn't get their center to get them the damn puck or get him to finish consistently when they got it to him.

 

So, again, back to 3C.  Is he the only problem?  Jesus, no. And again, no one is saying that.

[icehole]

My perspective on this is pretty simple.  As the 8th pick with 96 junior points, there were high expectations.  Then, after a good rookie year, those expectations got higher. But since then, his offensive abilities were just non existent.  He was given a ton of credit for being a great defensive mind and a top PKer.  I just don't know if that's the case, because his defensive game never seemed to have a positive impact on the team.  They seem to give up plenty of goals and have been bottom 3rd on PK for years now.

 

He is a fine option at 3C.  I'll take 30-40 points and a responsible player in that spot.  But I struggle with keeping a player like that or upgrading to something this team needs more than anything...scoring!  If the flyers were a high scoring team with a lack of responsibility, I'd love to have couturier to stabilize things.  They're not though.  They are a stagnant team that is in love with a third line talent.