Flyers (now drafting #2 overall) and the 2017 NHL Draft (now with Poll)

[AJgoal]

10 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

FC:

 

I wouldn't trade that far down...maybe our usual 10th to 13th....But if we got a recent high draft pick or high end prospect, I would consider.  If these guys aren't "generational," should we turn the radar off?  

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with listening to offers, but the #2 is too valuable in this draft to use to dump MacDonald. You'd have to get something significant in return for the move down. I don't consider relief from MacDonald's cap hit significant with regards to next year.

 

Switching gears, the Flyers own pick #44 in the second round. Since the first round pick is going to pretty much pick itself (we assume), who is likely to be hanging around in that neighborhood that's worth looking at? Strome, Norris, Gadjovich? I do think this is an area with the extra 3rd and 4th-round picks that Hextall could move up if there's someone he likes. 

[Howie58]

31 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with listening to offers, but the #2 is too valuable in this draft to use to dump MacDonald. You'd have to get something significant in return for the move down. I don't consider relief from MacDonald's cap hit significant with regards to next year.

 

Switching gears, the Flyers own pick #44 in the second round. Since the first round pick is going to pretty much pick itself (we assume), who is likely to be hanging around in that neighborhood that's worth looking at? Strome, Norris, Gadjovich? I do think this is an area with the extra 3rd and 4th-round picks that Hextall could move up if there's someone he likes. 

Dear AJ:

 

I just found this online to address your question.  Someone named Boquist shows up on our 44th.

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/philadelphia/60/

 

I am no position to question the wisdom or lack thereof in this assessment.  But for the first time in ages, we seem to have some good add-ons for a farm system that was sludge a few years back.

 

 

[AJgoal]

Just now, Howie58 said:

Dear AJ:

 

I just found this online to address your question.  Someone named Boquist shows up on our 44th.

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/philadelphia/60/

 

I am no position to question the wisdom or lack thereof in this assessment.  But for the first time in ages, we seem to have some good add-ons for a farm system that was sludge a few years back.

 

 

 

Interesting. Boqvist plays for Brynas - same team as Lindblom and Sandstrom. It makes sense at least in that the Flyers are sure to have seen a bit of him over the past year (only 16 games with the big club).

[OccamsRazor]

Bill makes some good point in today's write up...

 

2) Patrick is one of those players who has been on the NHL Draft radar screen for so long that the inevitable backlash and second-guessing set in. As early as 2015, the 2017 Draft was being called the "Nolan Patrick Draft". The same thing happened to John Tavares leading up to the 2009 Draft, just to name one prominent example. 

There is nothing wrong with Patrick's skating, despite what some have said. He gets from point A to point B quickly and, for a player of his frame, is plenty mobile. The groin issues of the past year may have had an adverse effect in some viewings but at least in 2015-16 (when I saw streams of many Brandon games while following the progress of Ivan Provorov), his mobility seemed to be a strong suit of his game. At absolute worst, it's not an area of concern. No, he isn't Connor McDavid in the speed department. He's also no plodder. 

Additionally, I do no think that either the Devils or the Flyers will be scared off by Patrick's injury history if he is otherwise the team's best available player. While the injuries should not be completely ignored, it's nothing that should linger into next season.

I don't know why there are sudden concerns over whether Patrick has bonafide higher-end offensive upside. A Hockey News columnist criticized Patrick's (very) slight points-per-game drop in 2016-17, claiming it should have gone up with Brandon having fewer stars than the past season. In other words, less siphoning off of scoring chances. 

The reality is, though, that the more stars a team has, the more there's a trickle down effect in the lineup. For Patrick to post 46 points in 33 games during an injury-plagued season was actually an affirmation that he is very promising offensive talent in his own right. Besides, the pedigree is there. Patrick was a 30-goal, point-per-game player in the Western League by age 16 after appropriately dominating every bantam and midget level. 

Lastly, "200-foot player" is NOT code for "can't score." It means a player can contribute in a variety of different ways, and do so whether the puck is on his stick or not. Teams have to be able to win the 1-0 and 2-1 games, too, and Patrick's two-way hockey sense doesn't make him 
"another boring forward who can't score" (as a few social media GMs have so expertly opined without ever having seen him play once). It makes him a versatile prospect who is likely to gain his NHL coach's trust quickly despite his youth. He plays with nuance and structure, and that resonates with coaches. Add to that the fact he can also score, and you have the makings of a player who will see a lot of ice time even early in his career.

I hate making predictions, and this is based on no more than a hunch because I have no idea what the teams themselves have in mind, but if I were Ray Shero, I'd see Patrick as a perfect fit for the Devils with the top pick. 

If Hischier comes the Flyers way, there would be plenty of reason for excitement, too. Again, it's pretty much a win-win scenario when you are guaranteed of a shot at a player with outstanding potential, whether it's in column A or column B. 
 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-Meltzer/Quick-Hits-Draft-Thoughts-Flyers-at-Worlds-and-More/45/84910

[OccamsRazor]

55 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Interesting. Boqvist plays for Brynas - same team as Lindblom and Sandstrom. It makes sense at least in that the Flyers are sure to have seen a bit of him over the past year (only 16 games with the big club).

 

 

Linus Ohlund is intriguing as well...only 5-11 185 but is 19 (97 birthday) i'm sure he is still growing and could be of interest later in the draft.

 

I wouldn't use an early pick on a kid his age but a 3rd rounder i would. He be 20 in june. Or you could wait till after the draft hoping he doesn't get selected and try and sign him.

[ruxpin]

10 hours ago, King Knut said:

It's not like choosing between Eichel and McDavid.  There are tons of top 2 picks who never amount to much.  We're not getting a generational talent in this year's draft.

That's just the thing. We're not really choosing, so where is the pressure and where is the hesitation? 

 

There are, by all accounts, two players above the rest. Period. 

 

It's not like the Flyers are picking first, so they don't even have the pressure of deciding which one. They simply go to the podium and pick whomever the Devils don't. Simple and straight forward. 

 

Maybe he is a bust and maybe he isn't. That's the crap shoot that is the draft. But we'll know sooner than the 13th pick (presumably the 2nd will make it or fail faster than the 13th) and the potential  upside is higher. 

 

And all we "earned" was the 13th so zero pressure and zero risk here. 

 

Just enjoy it. You'll spend less money on Maalox that way. 

[AJgoal]

9 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Dear AJ:

 

I just found this online to address your question.  Someone named Boquist shows up on our 44th.

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/philadelphia/60/

 

I am no position to question the wisdom or lack thereof in this assessment.  But for the first time in ages, we seem to have some good add-ons for a farm system that was sludge a few years back.

 

 

Appleyard's take:

 

He's really talented. I could see him being a 2nd line forward in the NHL down the line. Nifty puck-handler, agile and fast, great passer, good IQ. Some people dislike his game as they see him as a perimeter player, but while he does make a lot of plays from near the boards etc he is not 'scared' to go to the net and to board battles. If the Flyers were picking ~25-35 I would be happy with him there. I imagine he'll be another Jonathan Dahlén/Carl Grundström (though he is not as good as either)... he'll slip into the mid 2nd round behind CHLers with less talent who are not as good a hockey players right now.

[pilldoc]

Someone just made a very concise comparison between the two:

 

Nolan Patrick 6'3 198,
Nico Hischier 6'0 176,

Skating
Patrick is a very good, but not elite skater. He has a long stride and gets up to top speed in a hurry though. He also is deceptively quick and agile for a big man.

Hischier is an elite skater, with great speed, acceleration and quickness. He's not quite as dynamic as Connor McDavid, but he'd arguably be the fastest Flyers forward from day one.

Both players are just as fast with the puck as they are without it.

Size and strength
Patrick is man strong. He will likely continue to fill out and top out at around 210 lbs. He uses his size to protect the puck well, will win board battles and is very difficult to knock off the puck. He's not a particularly aggressive player physically, but he won't back down.

Hischier may still be growing, some sites are now listing him at 6'1 and he's likely around 180 lbs at this point. Obviously, he could benefit by filling out and getting stronger and he will likely top out around 195-200 lbs. That being said, he plays a fearless game, and will happily venture into the dirty parts of the ice. He is deceptively strong and hard to knock off the puck and he has a bit of mean in his game too.

Skills
Patrick has fantastic skills. He possesses a hard, accurate shot, is an excellent passer and has very soft hands that allow him to be an excellent stickhandler. He's going to put points at the NHL level, maybe not the 100+ of a McDavid, but 30+ goals and 80+ points are not out of the realm of possibility when he hits is prime.

Hischier has world class skills. He has innate sense of when to pass and when to shoot and the soft hands to stickhandle with the best of them. He has an accurate shot with a quick release too. Again, he won't put up McDavid numbers, but he too could top out at 30+ goals and 80+ points, and if he really hits his full potential, he could flirt with a few 90+ point seasons.

Overall hockey sense
Patrick is a complete player with very good defensive awareness. He is strong defensively and on faceoffs and competes hard in all three zones. He is a future team captain and a guy who will play in all situations. He is very composed and rarely makes a bad read or a bad play. Coaches are going to love this guy.

Hischier has fantastic on ice awareness, he seems to know where everyone on the ice is at all times and can make a seemingly blind pass out of nowhere. His defensive game is solid, but he could use a bit of improvement to play at the NHL level. He's 9 months younger and less experienced at as high a level as Patrick and that needs to be taken into consideration. Overall, his hockey sense is elite and from all accounts he's very coachable and hard working.

Negatives
Patrick's only negative is his injury history.

Hischier's only negative is that he needs to get a bit stronger.

 

 

Despite my initial gut reaction of going for Nolan at first....I am slowly be swayed to go with Nico......
 

[flyercanuck]

 I'm inclined to go with whoever the Devils don't take. 

 

 Again, Patricks health is a bit of a concern. But the fact he definitely seems like he's NHL centre material kind of makes up for that. Hischier hasn't had health issues, but is a bigger ? for centre. Maybe Hischier has a bit higher ceiling, while Patrick has the higher floor?

 

Flip a coin.

[vis]

Since these guys seem to be so close in terms of on-ice ability, the intangibles will make the difference (if any).  Would like to know more about their personalities, training habits, intelligence, family, etc.

[flyercanuck]

26 minutes ago, vis said:

Since these guys seem to be so close in terms of on-ice ability, the intangibles will make the difference (if any).  Would like to know more about their personalities, training habits, intelligence, family, etc.

 

Patricks father Steve, was a 20th overall pick in the NHL draft. His uncle, James, was a 6th overall pick. 

[brelic]

So here's a list of #2 overall picks. Are there some busts? Yup. 

 

How many would you say are busts? And I guess, what does 'bust' mean? Is Lehtonen a bust? He's a career 2.71/.912.

 

He and Cam Ward are the only goaltenders from that draft with any sort of full NHL career. The other two, Harding and McElhinney, played about 150 games, which would be considered mediocre, I'd think.

 

Anyway, food for thought on a slow Wednesday in May when the Flyers are not playing.

 

2013    Aleksander Barkov    C    Tappara (FIN)    Florida Panthers
2012    Ryan Murray    D    Everett (WHL)    Columbus Blue Jackets
2011    Gabriel Landeskog    LW    Kitchener (OHL)    Colorado Avalanche
2010    Tyler Seguin    C    Plymouth (OHL)    Boston Bruins
2009    Victor Hedman    D    Modo (Swe)    Tampa Bay Lightning
2008    Drew Doughty    D    Guelph    Los Angeles Kings
2007    James VanRiemsdyk    LW    US Under-18    Philadelphia Flyers
2006    Jordan Staal    C    Peterborough (OHL)    Pittsburgh Penguins
2005    Bobby Ryan    RW    Owen Sound Attack (OHL)    Anaheim Ducks
2004    Evgeny Malkin    C    Magnitogorsk Metallurg (Russia)    Pittsburgh Penguins
2003    Eric Staal    C    Peterborough Petes (OHL)    Carolina Hurricanes
2002    Kari Lehtonen    G    Jokerit Helsinki (FNL)    Atlanta Thrashers
2001    Jason Spezza    C    Windsor Spitfires (OHL)    Ottawa Senators
2000    Dany Heatley    LW    U. of Wisconsin (NCAA)    Atlanta Thrashers
1999    Daniel Sedin    LW    Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL)    Vancouver Canucks
1998    David Legwand    C    Plymouth Whalers (OHL)    Nashville Predators
1997    Patrick Marleau    C    Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)    San Jose Sharks
1996    Andrei Zyuzin    D    Salavat Yulajev (Russia)    San Jose Sharks
1995    Wade Redden    D    Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL)    New York Islanders
1994    Oleg Tverdovsky    D    Krylja Sovetov (Russia)    Anaheim Ducks
1993    Chris Pronger    D    Peterborough Petes (OHL)    Hartford Whalers
1992    Alexei Yashin    C    Moscow Dynamo (Russia)    Ottawa Senators
1991    Pat Falloon    RW    Spokane Chiefs (WHL)    San Jose Sharks
1990    Petr Nedved    LW    Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)    Vancouver Canucks
1989    Dave Chyzowski    LW    Kamloops Blazers (WHL)    New York Islanders
1988    Trevor Linden    C    Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)    Vancouver Canucks
1987    Brendan Shanahan    LW    London Knights (OHL)    New Jersey Devils
1986    Jimmy Carson    C    Verdun Junior Canadiens (QMJHL)    Los Angeles Kings
1985    Craig Simpson    LW    Michigan State University (NCAA)    Pittsburgh Penguins
1984    Kirk Muller    C    Guelph Platers (OHL)    New Jersey Devils
1983    Sylvain Turgeon    LW    Hull Olympiques (QMJHL)    Hartford Whalers
1981    Doug Smith    F    Ottawa 67's (OHL)    Los Angeles Kings
1980    Dave Babych    D    Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)    Winnipeg Jets

[vis]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Patricks father Steve, was a 20th overall pick in the NHL draft. His uncle, James, was a 6th overall pick. 

Right.  I guess I meant how was their upbringing, more than pedigree.

[vis]

@brelic so, the upshot here is that they are going to get an NHL player, and an above-average one for sure.*  Which is more than you could say about picking 13 in a two player draft.  I don't care if he's not McCrosbyVechkin.  We are going to get an NHL player capable of being a top 6 center - without having to lose a roster player or prospect.  

 

* unless we become the Islanders.  Dave Chyzowski?

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, vis said:

Right.  I guess I meant how was their upbringing, more than pedigree.

 

His father used to bodycheck him into the walls if he didn't eat his peas. His uncle wouldn't crosscheck him if he got good grades.

[pilldoc]

52 minutes ago, vis said:

McCrosbyVechkin

 

genetic scientists would love to see that genetic makeup!

 

[TimKerrFan12]

 

I talked to someone in the know and they just told me that Nico Hischier is NOT ON LOAN FROM SC BERN AND IS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THE AHL next season.
 

 

This might not be big news for Flyers fan's but for Moosehead's fans it is.

 

This tweet is from a member of the Halifax Moosehead's Organization.

 

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, vis said:

@brelic so, the upshot here is that they are going to get an NHL player, and an above-average one for sure.*  Which is more than you could say about picking 13 in a two player draft.  I don't care if he's not McCrosbyVechkin.  We are going to get an NHL player capable of being a top 6 center - without having to lose a roster player or prospect.  

 

* unless we become the Islanders.  Dave Chyzowski?

 

Exactly. For fun, here's the list of #13 overall picks. The difference between #2 and #13 is immediately evident.

 

2013    Josh Morrissey    D    Prince Albert (WHL)    Winnipeg Jets
2012    Radek Faksa    C    Kitchener (OHL)    Dallas Stars
2011    Sven Bartschi    W    Portland (WHL)    Calgary Flames
2010    Brandon Gormley    D    Moncton (QMJHL)    Phoenix Coyotes
2009    Zack Kassian    RW    Peterborough (OHL)    Buffalo Sabres
2008    Colten Teubert    D    Regina (WHL)    Los Angeles Kings
2007    Lars Eller    F    Frolunda (Swe.)    St. Louis Blues
2006    Jiri Tlusty    C    Kladno (Cze)    Toronto Maple Leafs
2005    Marek Zagrapan        Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL)    Buffalo Sabres
2004    Drew Stafford    RW    U. of North Dakota (NCAA)    Buffalo Sabres
2003    Dustin Brown    RW    Guelph Storm (OHL)    Los Angeles Kings
2002    Alexander Semin    LW    Chelyabinsk Jrs. (Russia)    Washington Capitals
2001    Ales Hemsky    LW    Hull Olympiques (QMJHL)    Edmonton Oilers
2000    Ron Hainsey    D    U. of Lowell (NCAA)    Montreal Canadiens
1999    Jani Rita    LW    Jokerit Helsinki (FNL)    Edmonton Oilers
1998    Michael Henrich    RW    Barrie Colts (OHL)    Edmonton Oilers
1997    Daniel Cleary    LW    Belleville Bulls (OHL)    Chicago Blackhawks
1996    Derek Morris    D    Regina Pats (WHL)    Calgary Flames
1995    Jean-Sebastien Giguere    G    Halifax Mooseheads (QMJHL)    Hartford Whalers
1994    Mattias Ohlund    D    Pitea (Sweden)    Vancouver Canucks
1993    Denis Pederson    C    Prince Albert Raiders (WHL)    New Jersey Devils
1992    Joe Hulbig    LW    St. Sebastian's [Mass. H.S.]    Edmonton Oilers
1991    Philippe Boucher    D    Granby Bisons (QMJHL)    Buffalo Sabres
1990    Michael Stewart    D    Michigan State University (NCAA)    New York Rangers
1989    Lindsay Vallis    RW    Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)    Montreal Canadiens
1988    Joel Savage    RW    Victoria Cougars (WHL)    Buffalo Sabres
1987    Dean Chynoweth    D    Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)    New York Islanders
1986    Craig Janney    C    Boston College (NCAA)    Boston Bruins
1985    Derek King    LW    Sault-Ste.-Marie Greyhounds (OHL)    New York Islanders
1984    David Quinn         Kent H.S. (Conn.)    Minnesota North Stars
1983    Dan Quinn    C    Belleville Bulls (OHL)    Calgary Flames
1981    Ron Meighan    D    Niagara-Falls Flyers (OHL)    Minnesota North Stars
1980    Denis Cyr    RW    Montreal Juniors (QMJHL)    Atlanta Flames

[elmatus]

Busts at no.2 imo (let's go since 2000):

 

3 hours ago, brelic said:

2007    James VanRiemsdyk    LW    US Under-18    Philadelphia Flyers
2006    Jordan Staal    C    Peterborough (OHL)    Pittsburgh Penguins
2005    Bobby Ryan    RW    Owen Sound Attack (OHL)    Anaheim Ducks
2002    Kari Lehtonen    G    Jokerit Helsinki (FNL)    Atlanta Thrashers

 

I'll give Heatley a pass cause mental health matter. In hindsight, those four should not have been 2nd overall picks. They're all NHLers, but there were plenty better options at no.2. This is hindsight of course...

 

On the Nolan/Nico topic, we're clearly going to have a great talent on our hands either way. I would prefer Nolan myself, but I'd be equally excited to see Nico roaming in O&B someday. The injury history is challenging for sure, but I like this package best myself:

 

5 hours ago, pilldoc said:

Overall hockey sense
Patrick is a complete player with very good defensive awareness. He is strong defensively and on faceoffs and competes hard in all three zones. He is a future team captain and a guy who will play in all situations. He is very composed and rarely makes a bad read or a bad play. Coaches are going to love this guy.

 

That said, the style of play he seems to favour may be a major reason why he does get injured regularly. If so, it's likely to persist when he hits the big club. I can definitely understand why people would opt for Nico based on his injury history.

 

Again though, I'm giddy on both accounts. Just bring em on, let's see what they've got.

[pilldoc]

38 minutes ago, TimKerrFan12 said:

 

I talked to someone in the know and they just told me that Nico Hischier is NOT ON LOAN FROM SC BERN AND IS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THE AHL next season.
 

 

This might not be big news for Flyers fan's but for Moosehead's fans it is.

 

This tweet is from a member of the Halifax Moosehead's Organization.

 

 

 

That's interesting...because everybody is reporting otherwise.   I trust your source and the tweet you provided.  I guess some clarification needs to be made.  Just so everyone knows what is going on.

[vis]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

His uncle wouldn't crosscheck him if he got good grades.

Not sure if this means he's smart or stupid.  

[vis]

@brelic Yeah, clearly a crapshoot at 13.  Although some real talented players were selected in that spot.  Still, this is a weak draft.  All the more reason to be happy about jumping up to #2.

[B21]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 I'm inclined to go with whoever the Devils don't take. 

 

 Again, Patricks health is a bit of a concern. But the fact he definitely seems like he's NHL centre material kind of makes up for that. Hischier hasn't had health issues, but is a bigger ? for centre. Maybe Hischier has a bit higher ceiling, while Patrick has the higher floor?

 

Flip a coin.

 

You guys could literally submit your pick now as "Whoever NJ doesn't take...". The first 2nd overall to go off the clock before the 1st overall.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Not sure if this means he's smart or stupid.  

 

Guess we'll find out one way or another.

 

I have a feeling we're going to love one of these guys and hate the other.

[AJgoal]

Just now, flyercanuck said:

 

Guess we'll find out one way or another.

 

I have a feeling we're going to love one of these guys and hate the other.

Hopefully we don't love the one the Debs pick.