Hextall's Offseason Moves

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah those guys are the type you build around.

 

The guys they need to be moing on from however are the guys getting long in the tooth and who have NMC's.

 

One of the 3 of Perry ( 3 more year at 8.6mill) Getzlaf (3 x 8.2mill) or Kesler (4 x 6.8mill)....

 

..those are some of the guys i would be convincing to waive their NMC along with Bieksa too...

 

I have a feeling that those three guys are waving - with one finger.

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

I have a feeling that those three guys are waving - with one finger.

 

 

 

HAHA...yeah i agree.

 

I think you'd have a chance if you were to move them to a team who was close they may be more receptive.

 

But to ask those guys to go to the new club like Vegas who is just starting off i couldn't see it. Kesler is looking for his 1st Cup and the other two i'm sure would love another before they hand it up so that would be key on top of having to move their families it would be a no go.

 

So i think worst case you might have a chance to move Kesler to a club for arguments sake like the Rangers or Panthers or Caps. Like i said just for conversation i don't now those teams cap situations. But a club like that. And he could still waive the finger at them!

[JJMason33]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

His contract magnified it  in the past.  Right now his contract isn't a factor.  Streit was a top 4 for Philly because he still had great offensive numbers.  The Flyers also got significantly better shortly after he left.    He was a problem.  So was MDZ (though I will say that MDZ seemed to get better after Streit left too).   

So if the Flyers got better without Streit and MDZ then maybe they will get even better without MacDonald.  Maybe getting rid of him tells everyone else that we are done paying a 5th/6th defenseman like a 2nd/3rd defenseman.  Maybe it tells the locker room the status quo isn't good enough anymore and the team is moving in a new direction and any reminder of that has to go....  I don't hate MacDonald and I don't argue he is an NHL player.  It just reminds me of how angry I would get watching a guy that isn't as good at me at a job getting paid more.  Its honestly can be a cancer.

[RJ8812]

2 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Now that Anaheim is out and Bob Murray is going to have an incredibly tough time deciding who to protect, I'd like to see Hextall offer something like the rights to MacDonald, a 3rd and a 4th this year and get a player back like Rackell or Silfverberg. Anaheim is going to be in a position where they're going to lose someone, so why not try to limit who they have to expose, get a player back that can be exposed and get some assets that can be used to draft other players or used to parlay into other players. 

Anaheim will get much better offers than that for those guys 

[AJgoal]

9 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm with you.  Laughton isn't signed.  He could get traded to Vegas anyway (or anyone else).  There is legitimately no room for him here anymore

 

I disagree with there not being a spot for Laughton. I think the NHL is starting to see a change in the 4th line. It's not just guys who crash and bang and bring energy over 6-7 minutes a night anymore. The Penguins 4th line put up ~25 goals this season. The Caps' ~30. ~25 for the Blues'. Even Ottawa's fourth line potted somewhere around 20 goals. The Flyers came in at ~15. Successful* clubs are turning their fourth lines into lines that are able to score regularly - not just bonus goals. They're also using more of these spots on young guys and giving them a bit more ice time a night than they used to.

 

I would love to see a fourth line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal for that reason. It's got speed, and Laughton and Weal have proven they can score at this level. At their expected cap hits (assuming Weal is re-signed), there's no reason not to dress them on a nightly basis. Let them play 10-12 minutes and see if they can bring their AHL games along and become productive players at this level. 

 

*I know I included the Blues here, but I couldn't think of another word to describe what I was going for.

[flyercanuck]

Jumping into the conversation late...I'm not concerned with Washington and Pittsburgh as the teams to beat for the Flyer, going forward. Philly isn't contending in the next couple years. I'd be more worried about Edmonton, Toronto, Columbus and maybe Carolina. Those are the teams that look like they could be very good in a few years. 

 

 As for who won the Carter/Richards trades...LA won cause they won 2 cups...Philly won cause they got Voracek/Simmonds/Couturier/Schenn +....Columbus lost. Just because they have a good team doesn't mean they won the trade...picture that team with Voracek and the 8th overall pick instead of Jack Johnson. Or whatever defenceman they could trade for for those 2. Carter sucked in Columbus...and they got whatever they could for him.

[AJgoal]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Jumping into the conversation late...I'm not concerned with Washington and Pittsburgh as the teams to beat for the Flyer, going forward. Philly isn't contending in the next couple years. I'd be more worried about Edmonton, Toronto, Columbus and maybe Carolina. Those are the teams that look like they could be very good in a few years. 

 

 

I tend to agree here. Washington is a paper tiger as it is, they're going to have to start dismantling their team starting this offseason, and I don't think their pipeline is too strong. Columbus has a few high end prospects and shouldn't have any problems keeping whomever they want over the next few years. Once Tortorella's shelf life expires they could be a real headache. Carolina is the same, as long as Darling proves to be a long term solution in net. Toronto still needs some back end help, but they have an excellent group of forwards. The only point I disagree on is Pittsburgh. As long as Crosby and Malkin stay healthy, it looks like they'll be an issue in the East.

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 As for who won the Carter/Richards trades...LA won cause they won 2 cups...Philly won cause they got Voracek/Simmonds/Couturier/Schenn +....Columbus lost. Just because they have a good team doesn't mean they won the trade...picture that team with Voracek and the 8th overall pick instead of Jack Johnson. Or whatever defenceman they could trade for for those 2. Carter sucked in Columbus...and they got whatever they could for him.

 

Yeah, I hate the concept of winning/losing trades. In the end, it's whether the team gets what they want in the deal. Take the Coburn trade. The Flyers ended up with Gudas, Konecny, and Tomek - two current contributors and likely core pieces going forward, and a goalie with some potential. Tampa Bay got to the SCF. Both teams "won."

 

The problem with the concept of "winning" the Richards/Carter trades is that while the Flyers got good pieces for a rebuild (Simmonds was 22, Voracek 21, and Schenn 19, plus a first rounder), Holmgren then proceeded to delay the rebuild by continuing to chase the playoffs. Ignoring the 2011 draft since those moves were made before the Richards/Carter deals, Holmgren traded away three second round picks in 2012. The third rounder he traded away that year (part of the Bryz deal) would have seen Matt Murray, Frederick Andersen, and Colton Parayko still on the board. The Flyers owned the pick that Pittsburgh used the next year to select Jake Guentzel a few picks after Goulbourne. So yes, the Flyers "won" those trades, but proceeded to lose the war, as it were, by not committing to rebuilding. Now they have and it's paying dividends, but unless the core they received through the trades are contributing when the young guys start seriously solidifying the roster, winning the trades was pyrrhic at best.

[JJMason33]

9 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 So yes, the Flyers "won" those trades, but proceeded to lose the war, as it were, by not committing to rebuilding. Now they have and it's paying dividends, but unless the core they received through the trades are contributing when the young guys start seriously solidifying the roster, winning the trades was pyrrhic at best.

I have no issue with Homer not rebuilding and going for the cup.  Snyder was sick and I believe everything he did for this city he deserved at least a shot at another cup.  Even if it cost us 10+ years of marginal play.

[King Knut]

11 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

I disagree with there not being a spot for Laughton. I think the NHL is starting to see a change in the 4th line. It's not just guys who crash and bang and bring energy over 6-7 minutes a night anymore. The Penguins 4th line put up ~25 goals this season. The Caps' ~30. ~25 for the Blues'. Even Ottawa's fourth line potted somewhere around 20 goals. The Flyers came in at ~15. Successful* clubs are turning their fourth lines into lines that are able to score regularly - not just bonus goals. They're also using more of these spots on young guys and giving them a bit more ice time a night than they used to.

 

I would love to see a fourth line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal for that reason. It's got speed, and Laughton and Weal have proven they can score at this level. At their expected cap hits (assuming Weal is re-signed), there's no reason not to dress them on a nightly basis. Let them play 10-12 minutes and see if they can bring their AHL games along and become productive players at this level. 

 

*I know I included the Blues here, but I couldn't think of another word to describe what I was going for.

 

Oh, I'm with you on the 4th line,  but if Lindblom and #2 make the team, Raffl and Weise are going to be fighting it out with Vecchione and PEB for 4th line minutes already.  Laughton' going to have to out play all of that. 

[radoran]

The real issue isn't Homer "going for the Cup" it's how he went about doing it.

 

He took a team that had just been to the Cup Final and turned it into one that has six rounds of playoffs in the seven seasons since - and has missed the playoffs three times.

 

In terms of "going for the Cup" that's just terrible by any measure.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, JJMason33 said:

I have no issue with Homer not rebuilding and going for the cup.  Snyder was sick and I believe everything he did for this city he deserved at least a shot at another cup.  Even if it cost us 10+ years of marginal play.

 

Its just that some moves were rebuild moves and some moves were cup now moves.  That was the major problem. He was making big choices in opposing directions. 

 

Then eventually most of the moves were just dumb moves. 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

I tend to agree here. Washington is a paper tiger as it is, they're going to have to start dismantling their team starting this offseason, and I don't think their pipeline is too strong. Columbus has a few high end prospects and shouldn't have any problems keeping whomever they want over the next few years. Once Tortorella's shelf life expires they could be a real headache. Carolina is the same, as long as Darling proves to be a long term solution in net. Toronto still needs some back end help, but they have an excellent group of forwards. The only point I disagree on is Pittsburgh. As long as Crosby and Malkin stay healthy, it looks like they'll be an issue in the East.

 

 

Yeah, I hate the concept of winning/losing trades. In the end, it's whether the team gets what they want in the deal. Take the Coburn trade. The Flyers ended up with Gudas, Konecny, and Tomek - two current contributors and likely core pieces going forward, and a goalie with some potential. Tampa Bay got to the SCF. Both teams "won."

 

The problem with the concept of "winning" the Richards/Carter trades is that while the Flyers got good pieces for a rebuild (Simmonds was 22, Voracek 21, and Schenn 19, plus a first rounder), Holmgren then proceeded to delay the rebuild by continuing to chase the playoffs. Ignoring the 2011 draft since those moves were made before the Richards/Carter deals, Holmgren traded away three second round picks in 2012. The third rounder he traded away that year (part of the Bryz deal) would have seen Matt Murray, Frederick Andersen, and Colton Parayko still on the board. The Flyers owned the pick that Pittsburgh used the next year to select Jake Guentzel a few picks after Goulbourne. So yes, the Flyers "won" those trades, but proceeded to lose the war, as it were, by not committing to rebuilding. Now they have and it's paying dividends, but unless the core they received through the trades are contributing when the young guys start seriously solidifying the roster, winning the trades was pyrrhic at best.

 

The Flyers won neither the trades nor the war.  Plain and simple. 

 

They werent bad trades.  But LA got what it wanted out of them and the flyers did not. 

[JJMason33]

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

The real issue isn't Homer "going for the Cup" it's how he went about doing it.

 

He took a team that had just been to the Cup Final and turned it into one that has six rounds of playoffs in the seven seasons since - and has missed the playoffs three times.

 

In terms of "going for the Cup" that's just terrible by any measure.

Lets be honest here.  That Cup final team only made the playoffs because of a shootout on the last day.  Its not like they were president trophy winners one day and shlubs the next.

[radoran]

11 hours ago, AJgoal said:

I would love to see a fourth line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal for that reason. It's got speed, and Laughton and Weal have proven they can score at this level.

 

Laughton has nine goals in 109 NHL games. Not sure that equates to "proven he can score at this level." YMMV.

 

Colin Miller - a defenseman who was the last pick in the fifth round in 2012 has as many goals and two more points in two more games.

 

Weal, on the other hand, has one fewer goal than Laughton in 72 fewer games.

 

Vecchione is more likely to be Laughton's center in Lehigh.

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, JJMason33 said:

Lets be honest here.  That Cup final team only made the playoffs because of a shootout on the last day.  Its not like they were president trophy winners one day and shlubs the next.

 

They did manage two comebacks from down 3-0, that's not exactly chopped liver.

 

Your point is, however, well taken. But, then, how does that jibe with Homer "going for the Cup"?

 

And the results are still the same.

[JJMason33]

8 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Its just that some moves were rebuild moves and some moves were cup now moves.  That was the major problem. He was making big choices in opposing directions. 

 

Then eventually most of the moves were just dumb moves. 

Everyone remembers the terrible things Homer did and none of the great, like getting Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen to sign here after being the worst team in the league.  And we have Forsberg for a while too. 

 

But I don't want to turn this into a Homer bash/love fest, this topic is about Hextall and the moves he is going to or should make in the next few months and few years.

[JJMason33]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

They did manage two comebacks from down 3-0, that's not exactly chopped liver.

 

Your point is, however, well taken. But, then, how does that jibe with Homer "going for the Cup"?

 

And the results are still the same.

I cant get into Homer's mind but I assume he thought with a real goaltender they were a cup contender.  And I also assume he thought Giroux and Briere plus Schenn who was the "next one" and Simmonds and Jagr and Voracek would make up for Richards and Carters production.  Plus I guess he also assumed Pronger wouldn't go down with a career ending injury and Bryzgalov would live up to expectations.... 

Everything that happened after Pronger's injury was like a boxer trying to recover from a hard punch on his feet. 

[murraycraven]

12 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

I disagree with there not being a spot for Laughton. I think the NHL is starting to see a change in the 4th line. It's not just guys who crash and bang and bring energy over 6-7 minutes a night anymore. The Penguins 4th line put up ~25 goals this season. The Caps' ~30. ~25 for the Blues'. Even Ottawa's fourth line potted somewhere around 20 goals. The Flyers came in at ~15. Successful* clubs are turning their fourth lines into lines that are able to score regularly - not just bonus goals. They're also using more of these spots on young guys and giving them a bit more ice time a night than they used to.

 

I would love to see a fourth line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal for that reason. It's got speed, and Laughton and Weal have proven they can score at this level. At their expected cap hits (assuming Weal is re-signed), there's no reason not to dress them on a nightly basis. Let them play 10-12 minutes and see if they can bring their AHL games along and become productive players at this level. 

 

*I know I included the Blues here, but I couldn't think of another word to describe what I was going for.

 

 

Could not agree more about the 4th line...   The problem is we need to move Pebbles in order for that to happen.   I would love to see the kids on the 4th line and think they could be a good defensive unit that provides depth in goal scoring.   

[JJMason33]

15 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Could not agree more about the 4th line...   The problem is we need to move Pebbles in order for that to happen.   I would love to see the kids on the 4th line and think they could be a good defensive unit that provides depth in goal scoring.   

I agree.  A long time ago my original post I said I would like to see something like Lindblom-#2-Vecchionne/PEB as our 4th line.

 

Konecny-Giroux-Voracek

Weal-Filppula-Simmonds

Schenn-Couturier-Weise

Lindblom-#2/Rubstov-Vecchionne/PEB

[radoran]

14 minutes ago, JJMason33 said:

I cant get into Homer's mind but I assume he thought with a real goaltender they were a cup contender.  And I also assume he thought Giroux and Briere plus Schenn who was the "next one" and Simmonds and Jagr and Voracek would make up for Richards and Carters production.  Plus I guess he also assumed Pronger wouldn't go down with a career ending injury and Bryzgalov would live up to expectations.... 

Everything that happened after Pronger's injury was like a boxer trying to recover from a hard punch on his feet. 

 

The 09-10 team very well might have been a "goalie away from a Cup" but after one year (in which the team actually won the Atlantic Division for the first time since the lockout) and a second round exit Homer blew up that team to get the goalie and made one of many tragic mistakes in selecting that goalie - trading away a future two-time Vezina Finalist in the process.

 

It wasn't goaltending that lost Game one to the Sabres 1-0 and led to Bob being pulled for Boucher. And it wasn't goaltending that saw the Flyers score seven goals in four games against the Bruins.

 

For the record, I actuallly liked Bryzgalov as a concept, but the execution was ridiculous. Bryz had pretty good - not world-beating - numbers for the Coyotes (although his playoffs of 3.44/.906 and 4.36/.879 were glaring warning signs). But the Coyotes were playing a defense-first system that tightened up in their own zone. That's not at all what Laviolette's coaching game was (or is).

 

So nine years, $51M? Blowing up the Atlantic Division-winning roster one year removed from a Cup Final to make it happen? Simply absurd.

 

As I've said previously, Homer started well in bringing in Briere/Timonen/Hartnell to support Gagne/Richards/Crater, but he went wildly off the rails in what appears to be a desperate, flailing attempt to "win a Cup now" for Snider.

 

I applaud the desire to win one for Ed. I understand the motivation.

 

But he was terrible at actually making it happen towards the end of his tenure and the results speak for themselves.

[AJgoal]

59 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Laughton has nine goals in 109 NHL games. Not sure that equates to "proven he can score at this level." YMMV.

 

Colin Miller - a defenseman who was the last pick in the fifth round in 2012 has as many goals and two more points in two more games.

 

Weal, on the other hand, has one fewer goal than Laughton in 72 fewer games.

 

Vecchione is more likely to be Laughton's center in Lehigh.

 

Laughton scored 5 on 5 at the 6th fastest rate among forwards for the Flyers in 2015-2016, while seeing the least ice time out of any forward who played at least half the season (And even overall he scored faster than Voracek or Couturier). This while spending the most time with Matt Read, RJ Umberger, Ryan White, and Nick Cousins. He also scored more goals that season than either Bellemare or Vandevelde did either this season or last, and almost as many points as they put up combined - as a 21 year old.

 

Weal, on the other hand, got dropped onto the top line, and was three years farther along in his development. Those are significant advantages, though he did make the most of them. I do think he will be a better goal scorer than Laughton (Laughton has a sub-10 shooting percentage, and even though I don't think Weal's a 16% career shooter, he can probably hit 11-12 consistently), but I think his rate (highest on the team last year) will come down significantly over a larger sample size.

 

Perhaps my choice of words was poor, but my point remains that a line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal is likely to be more productive than what they iced as a fourth line last year, and can also serve to develop those players at the NHL level.

 

Also, I doubt Laughton hits the Phantoms this year unless he absolutely tanks the preseason. He's no longer waiver eligible, so there's a good chance they lose him if he's waived. I do agree that Vecchione is likely to start in the AHL, I'd just prefer he didn't.

[King Knut]

56 minutes ago, JJMason33 said:

Everyone remembers the terrible things Homer did and none of the great, like getting Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen to sign here after being the worst team in the league.  And we have Forsberg for a while too. 

 

But I don't want to turn this into a Homer bash/love fest, this topic is about Hextall and the moves he is going to or should make in the next few months and few years.

 

Forseberg was acquired by Clarke.  He is what Homer traded to get some of the pieces you mentioned.

 

And I have mentioned all those things repeatedly.  Something went haywire with Homer's thinking.

 

It is assumed by several of us here that it was Ed Sniders illness and decreasing health that spurred Homer to acquiesce to Snider's increasingly desperate demands (Fire the party boys, sign Bryzgalov, go all in for Suter and Parise, then Weber).

 

There's no logic to Homer's executions.  He got His boss and beloved patriarch of the organization within 1 game and an overtime fluke goal of the cup.  

[radoran]

@AJgoal

 

I concur that getting more production from the fourth line is important for the team, especially in the modern day NHL.

 

The fly in your fourth-line ointment, however, is "Pebbles" who just got a hefty raise (despite his production) and a leadership letter on his sweater.

 

Presuming they go with Vecchione as the fourth line center (like you, I doubt this) where does that leave Bellemare? Is Vegas going to snap up a guy with eight points last season making $1.45M for the next two? Are the Flyers sending their newly-anointed Assistant Captain to the AHL? Like it or not, PEB is almost assuredly back as your fourth line center.

 

And, for that matter, I'm going to need to see a lot more from Vecchione before I'm slotting him into a regular spot on the lineup. I'm not writing him off, just not counting him in.

 

I'll also presume you meant Laughton scoring 5-on-5 rate in 15-16 (as he had zero goals in two games in 16-17), but that still turned out to be all of seven goals in 71 games. Bellemare likewise had 7 goals in 74 games (with no power play time) in 15-16.

 

I just don't get all the Laughton love. Again not a case of "hindsight" but I would have taken Maatta with that pick 11 times out of 10. But that's water under the bridge. At this point, he's the least impactful first round forward pick by the Flyers in the past 25 years.

[King Knut]

24 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Laughton scored 5 on 5 at the 6th fastest rate among forwards for the Flyers in 2015-2016, while seeing the least ice time out of any forward who played at least half the season (And even overall he scored faster than Voracek or Couturier). This while spending the most time with Matt Read, RJ Umberger, Ryan White, and Nick Cousins. He also scored more goals that season than either Bellemare or Vandevelde did either this season or last, and almost as many points as they put up combined - as a 21 year old.

 

Weal, on the other hand, got dropped onto the top line, and was three years farther along in his development. Those are significant advantages, though he did make the most of them. I do think he will be a better goal scorer than Laughton (Laughton has a sub-10 shooting percentage, and even though I don't think Weal's a 16% career shooter, he can probably hit 11-12 consistently), but I think his rate (highest on the team last year) will come down significantly over a larger sample size.

 

Perhaps my choice of words was poor, but my point remains that a line of Laughton - Vecchione - Weal is likely to be more productive than what they iced as a fourth line last year, and can also serve to develop those players at the NHL level.

 

Also, I doubt Laughton hits the Phantoms this year unless he absolutely tanks the preseason. He's no longer waiver eligible, so there's a good chance they lose him if he's waived. I do agree that Vecchione is likely to start in the AHL, I'd just prefer he didn't.

 

Remember Laughton started the year with the Flyers, then got hurt... again.

I think the big problem with Laughton as far as Hextall and Hakstol were concerned were the injuries and the defense/play driving.  

His even strength numbers were good partially because he didn't play in many special teams situations.  As good as they were, he was still a negative player which because of the lack of special teams means that's a raw negative.  He was on the ice for more goals than were scored.   If Simmonds or Schenn or Giroux are negative, they were on the ice for dozens of PP goals that simply don't help that number.  It masks things a bit.  

 

The injuries were another concern. I think he remained in Lehigh partially to give him an extended recovery and partially because I think they realized they maybe rushed him into the NHL out of need before he should have been.

 

I like Laughton, I think he could be a good NHL player.  His numbers in limited play alone make him valuable to most NHL teams.  It's just that over the last 12 months (2 weeks even) competition for slots on the Flyers got a lot stiffer than when he was the first round pick a few years ago.  If he survives the draft (and if I'm Vegas, I'm probably taking him, but because I think Vegas is taking Neuvirth...) he's going to have his work cut out for him.  I believe there's a good chance the 4th line might end up being a decent 2 way threat this year (though I doubt Hakstol is ready to give up on PEB or Raffl enough to make it a true scoring line).  

[murraycraven]

16 minutes ago, radoran said:

I just don't get all the Laughton love. Again not a case of "hindsight" but I would have taken Maatta with that pick 11 times out of 10. But that's water under the bridge. At this point, he's the least impactful first round forward pick by the Flyers in the past 25 years.

 

 

I think he was a reach when they picked him.   With that said I think this is the year he either makes the cut or you try to move him.   It has been a rocky road for Laughton but I do believe the skill is there to be a productive bottom 6 player in the NHL.   

 

If he does not make a push in camp to make the Team I believe his chances here are nearly dead.  If that truly becomes the case it is just another failure by the Org - his chances are slim at this point as he seems to be getting surpassed by other prospects that have made it to the Flyers.   

 

In hindsight Maatta should have been the pick but can he really be any worse than VDV on the 4th?