mojo1917 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 55 minutes ago, radoran said: I would have brought back Mason - especially on the deal he got in Winnipeg (cue the "he wouldn't have taken that deal in Philly" chorus). But I'm not mourning Schenn's departure. the deal Mason got in the 'peg is pretty team friendly, I don't know if Mason is team friendly. Especially "talented young guys on their first call up playing in front of him" team friendly. I can't help but wonder if he was having some" bad feelies" when Hextall signed Neuvith. My point here is I don't think Steve wanted to play in Philadelphia anymore after the expansion draft business. I think he made sure to grease the rails out of town during his exit interview. I don't think Mase was every Ron's "top guy" either. This isn't directed at you but just a point in general. One that I believe you have made here and other threads...now is the time to see if these young guys can play, now is the time where we should see some sort of improvement on the ice. There had to come a time when the prospects have to show they can play, we're in that time. It baffles me how for years people, criticise the team for signing free agents, then when the team changes it's approach, well that doesn't suit either. @fanaticV3.0 Schenn, he's the ultimate, he's a good player but ... guy.. Did anyone see a guy with his game in the semifinals or finals of the tournament? I didn't, I saw a lot of fast, smart guys who possessed the puck. That's not his game, I don't care that he was young, and scored some goals last year. I cared that he no longer brought anything to the team in terms of scoring depth. I cared that an NHL defenseman or forward could separate him from the puck by looking sort of in his direction. 2 years ago he was the guy who didn't rely on 28 for his points, the last two years, he can't get out of his zone 5 v5 and got his points from the PP quarterbacked by Giroux. So for me regardless of our "lack of forward depth", I'm not sorry to see that guy go. I don't have any ill will, but his game is not where the league is headed. So why keep him around ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: the deal Mason got in the 'peg is pretty team friendly, I don't know if Mason is team friendly. Especially "talented young guys on their first call up playing in front of him" team friendly. I can't help but wonder if he was having some" bad feelies" when Hextall signed Neuvith. My point here is I don't think Steve wanted to play in Philadelphia anymore after the expansion draft business. I think he made sure to grease the rails out of town during his exit interview. I don't think Mase was every Ron's "top guy" either. This isn't directed at you but just a point in general. One that I believe you have made here and other threads...now is the time to see if these young guys can play, now is the time where we should see some sort of improvement on the ice. There had to come a time when the prospects have to show they can play, we're in that time. It baffles me how for years people, criticise the team for signing free agents, then when the team changes it's approach, well that doesn't suit either. @fanaticV3.0 Schenn, he's the ultimate, he's a good player but ... guy.. Did anyone see a guy with his game in the semifinals or finals of the tournament? I didn't, I saw a lot of fast, smart guys who possessed the puck. That's not his game, I don't care that he was young, and scored some goals last year. I cared that he no longer brought anything to the team in terms of scoring depth. I cared that an NHL defenseman or forward could separate him from the puck by looking sort of in his direction. 2 years ago he was the guy who didn't rely on 28 for his points, the last two years, he can't get out of his zone 5 v5 and got his points from the PP quarterbacked by Giroux. So for me regardless of our "lack of forward depth", I'm not sorry to see that guy go. I don't have any ill will, but his game is not where the league is headed. So why keep him around ? great post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, murraycraven said: Schenn is a PP specialist who disappears for long stretches during 5 vs 5. Not directed at you, this is just the most recent post expressing this sentiment. Flyer Forwards 5v5 points/60 minutes: Weal - 2.29 Couturier - 1.76 Filpulla - 1.64 Konecny - 1.55 Voracek - 1.33 Read - 1.29 Cousins - 1.23 Schenn - 1.20 Simmonds - 1.14 Weise - 1.05 Vandevelde - 1.01 Raffl - 0.98 Giroux - 0.94 Lyubimov - 0.86 Bellemare - 0.53 What's interesting to note is that in 2015 - 2016, the team as a whole was better at 5v5. Read, Vandevelde, and Weal are the only players whose scoring pace went up over the past season: Couturier - 1.96 Schenn - 1.95 Simmonds - 1.92 Laughton - 1.88 Giroux - 1.72 Voracek - 1.62 Raffl - 1.56 Cousins - 1.48 Read - 0.93 Vandevelde - 0.76 Bellemare - 0.63 Weal - 0.0 Over the past two seasons, Schenn has put up the same number of 5 on 5 points as Simmonds, and one fewer primary point (fewer goals, more primary assists). If Schenn is a power play specialist, when are we going to start calling out Simmonds for the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 minute ago, AJgoal said: If Schenn is a power play specialist, when are we going to start calling out Simmonds for the same thing? this is just me, Simmonds kills penalties, Schenn did not. Simmonds is harder on the puck, Simmonds is faster, Simmonds is a smarter player. Simmonds is tough like a $3 steak. Schenn will hit you too, sometimes, when he can line a guy up or catch a guy. But most of the time 10 seemed to chase the play rather than drive it, Those stats do not support the eye test, that's for sure. I found them to be surprising. They do not, however, make me wish Schenn was still on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: this is just me, Simmonds kills penalties, Schenn did not. Simmonds is harder on the puck, Simmonds is faster, Simmonds is a smarter player. Simmonds is tough like a $3 steak. Schenn will hit you too, sometimes, when he can line a guy up or catch a guy. But most of the time 10 seemed to chase the play rather than drive it, Those stats do not support the eye test, that's for sure. I found them to be surprising. They do not, however, make me wish Schenn was still on the team. I can buy all that. I actually value Simmonds more than Schenn as well. But the fact is that where it ultimately counts, on the scoreboard, Schenn is equal to or better than Simmonds 5v5. I'll give you another one: 5v5 Goals for % (ie, ratio of goals scored by the Flyers vs. goals scored by the opposition when player is on the ice) 2016-2017 Schenn - 46.8% Simmonds - 42.0% 2015-2016 Schenn - 59.7% Simmonds - 52.8% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 51 minutes ago, AJgoal said: Not directed at you, this is just the most recent post expressing this sentiment. Flyer Forwards 5v5 points/60 minutes: Weal - 2.29 Couturier - 1.76 Filpulla - 1.64 Konecny - 1.55 Voracek - 1.33 Read - 1.29 Cousins - 1.23 Schenn - 1.20 Simmonds - 1.14 Weise - 1.05 Vandevelde - 1.01 Raffl - 0.98 Giroux - 0.94 Lyubimov - 0.86 Bellemare - 0.53 What's interesting to note is that in 2015 - 2016, the team as a whole was better at 5v5. Read, Vandevelde, and Weal are the only players whose scoring pace went up over the past season: Couturier - 1.96 Schenn - 1.95 Simmonds - 1.92 Laughton - 1.88 Giroux - 1.72 Voracek - 1.62 Raffl - 1.56 Cousins - 1.48 Read - 0.93 Vandevelde - 0.76 Bellemare - 0.63 Weal - 0.0 Over the past two seasons, Schenn has put up the same number of 5 on 5 points as Simmonds, and one fewer primary point (fewer goals, more primary assists). If Schenn is a power play specialist, when are we going to start calling out Simmonds for the same thing? We can pretty much use that metric for every player as of late - Schenn, Simmonds, Jake and G. Apparently, Hextall thought that Schenn was not worth keeping around as part of the core and rather take the draft picks. Stats are wonderful but looking at stats alone leads to an endless cycle. Instead of Simmonds why not G who makes nearly double than Simmer? Why not Jake? I can't read Hextall's mind but there was SOMETHING that he felt Schenn was worth moving. Maybe he believes his output will be replaced by some of the younger kids. I have no clue and yet I still think we won the trade. 2 first round picks for Schenn? Schenn is the quintessential "good at everything but a master of none" when you look at his skill set. He is a decent skater, a decent shot, not very fast, and is below average with the puck and below average on defense. Let's play a game: If you took one player off the roster, as it stands today, that would hurt the Team the most who would that player be (outside of Prov) ? Everyone around here loves to dog Couts so when are people going to recognize his worth? It becomes semantics.... In the end the entire Team needs to score more at 5v5. Looking at those numbers just reiterates how bad our offense has been. Offensively, I believe we were 20 out of 30 teams last year - everyone needs to pick it up. I also think that having Lindblom in the lineup and giving more minutes to TK is going to help. Added to that we might just have a 4th line that actually is NHL worthy. Going back to @mojo1917 point I think adding skill and speed is what Hextall is trying to do right now. Time will tell if it was worth it but I am not going to be sad that Schenn is no longer part of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 hours ago, murraycraven said: Instead of Simmonds why not G who makes nearly double than Simmer? Why not Jake? What? No mention of your favorite Flyer??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: What? No mention of your favorite Flyer??? Dude, that is awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 19 hours ago, murraycraven said: We can pretty much use that metric for every player as of late - Schenn, Simmonds, Jake and G. That was the whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 22 hours ago, radoran said: I hear you, but was responding to you complaining about relying on younger players. That's just where the league is at this point as the past EIGHT cup winners show. Who will provide Schenn's production? Honestly, I'm not convinced they could have relied on SCHENN for that, either. It seems to me that the team is looking to have the current core - V, G, Simmonds, etc. - be supported through the draft with younger players. It could work. It very well might not. But the team they had has two playoff rounds in five years. That's not a convincing argument for me to stay the course. I would have brought back Mason - especially on the deal he got in Winnipeg (cue the "he wouldn't have taken that deal in Philly" chorus). But I'm not mourning Schenn's departure. I haven't seen Lindblom or most of the other prospects but the Flyers assuredly have and they obviously think they have the makings of NHL players. Disagree or agree, we'll see in October. I know you are, but at the forward position there simply isn't much of anyone there to do the relying on. This team has virtually no one to rely upon to score, not a whole hell of a lot in the system (foreword wise), and just traded one of the few young scores that they have. Everyone likes to rag on Schenn, but his production literally went up every single season except one – and the one that it didn't he finished with virtually the same amount of points as the year before. People can dislike him all they want, but facts is facts. They created a void. I probably would have kept Mason too.Carter Hart is 18 , so there is no danger of signing anyone for "too long". He's not gonna be ready for several seasons. The only way I would not have signed Mason is if he was asking for an obscene amount of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 22 hours ago, murraycraven said: I will take two firsts for Schenn any day honestly. Schenn is a PP specialist who disappears for long stretches during 5 vs 5. Don't get me wrong I think he is a "good" player but I am fine moving him for the return. I think Hextall saw Schenn as someon who was not going to be part of the core moving forward and in turn got 2 1st round picks. This only sounds good on the surface. You have to do your homework and the players you use the pics on to pan out for it to mean anything. Morgan Frost supposedly isn't even a first round pick and unless next year's draft is deep a first round pick from Washington isn't going to be much. I don't see much to get excited about when you break it down. If this year's draft was really deep or even one of the pics that they acquired was from a team that was going to finish near the bottom of the league, then I would be excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 22 hours ago, mojo1917 said: the deal Mason got in the 'peg is pretty team friendly, I don't know if Mason is team friendly. Especially "talented young guys on their first call up playing in front of him" team friendly. I can't help but wonder if he was having some" bad feelies" when Hextall signed Neuvith. My point here is I don't think Steve wanted to play in Philadelphia anymore after the expansion draft business. I think he made sure to grease the rails out of town during his exit interview. I don't think Mase was every Ron's "top guy" either. This isn't directed at you but just a point in general. One that I believe you have made here and other threads...now is the time to see if these young guys can play, now is the time where we should see some sort of improvement on the ice. There had to come a time when the prospects have to show they can play, we're in that time. It baffles me how for years people, criticise the team for signing free agents, then when the team changes it's approach, well that doesn't suit either. @fanaticV3.0 Schenn, he's the ultimate, he's a good player but ... guy.. Did anyone see a guy with his game in the semifinals or finals of the tournament? I didn't, I saw a lot of fast, smart guys who possessed the puck. That's not his game, I don't care that he was young, and scored some goals last year. I cared that he no longer brought anything to the team in terms of scoring depth. I cared that an NHL defenseman or forward could separate him from the puck by looking sort of in his direction. 2 years ago he was the guy who didn't rely on 28 for his points, the last two years, he can't get out of his zone 5 v5 and got his points from the PP quarterbacked by Giroux. So for me regardless of our "lack of forward depth", I'm not sorry to see that guy go. I don't have any ill will, but his game is not where the league is headed. So why keep him around ? This is completely untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 On Brayden Schenn once again..........in another thread are you kidding me???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: This only sounds good on the surface. You have to do your homework and the players you use the pics on to pan out for it to mean anything So you think Hexy and the scouts haven't done their homework and they willy-nilly just pick players? If anything I think Hextall and his Team are pretty darn good at evaluating talent at the prospect level. This move was to free-up money - simple as that. Hextall thought he was expendable and not part of the core. in the short term it hurts but long term is cheaper and has the potential to put better skill in the lineup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, murraycraven said: So you think Hexy and the scouts haven't done their homework and they willy-nilly just pick players? No duh??!!??? They use a more scientific method.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Just now, OccamsRazor said: No duh??!!??? They use a more scientific method.... LOL.... I knew it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 What is the over / under on how long the B Schenn drama continues? The entire season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, murraycraven said: The entire season? This. We'll be reminded every time he farts and it doesn't stink.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Just now, OccamsRazor said: This. We'll be reminded every time he farts and it doesn't stink.... I can't wait until Schenn has his fist multi-point game in St Louis - this place will be like watching folks jumping off a bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 36 minutes ago, murraycraven said: This move was to free-up money - simple as that. Hextall thought he was expendable and not part of the core. in the short term it hurts but long term is cheaper and has the potential to put better skill in the lineup ^^ this is the crux of the whole conversation ^^ We can all argue back and forth about the merits of this trade from now until eternity. However, I think MC has nailed it....its not what we think if this trade is right or wrong. For whatever reason, Hexy thought he was expendable ...that is the bottom line. Sometimes GM's have a gut feeling and need to take a gamble. Agree with ALL arguments presented for both PRO and CON for the trade. As MC said....yup in the short term it may hurt, BUT Hexy also has to be looking at long term. 19 minutes ago, murraycraven said: What is the over / under on how long the B Schenn drama continues? The entire season? YES!....I say at least until Dec/Jan and maybe as we get closer to the Trade Deadline. Especially if the Flyers appear to struggle scoring. It will compare to the MASSIVE amount of discussion when both Carter and Richards were traded on the same day ....... IMO, this topic is not going away anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Just now, pilldoc said: We can will all argue back and forth about the merist of this trade from now until eternity. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 minute ago, pilldoc said: I compare to the MASSIVE amount of discussion when both Carter and Richards were traded on the same day ....... very good comparison doc. So the stories of Schenn banging G's girlfriend aren't true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, murraycraven said: So the stories of Schenn banging G's girlfriend aren't true? Maybe they should of signed Marleau he had more 5 on 5 goals than Giroux and Schenn combined!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Just now, OccamsRazor said: Maybe they should of signed Marleau he had more 5 on 5 goals than Giroux and Schenn combined!!!! at the tender age of 37 too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, murraycraven said: I can't wait until Schenn has his fist multi-point game in St Louis - this place will be like watching folks jumping off a bridge. Pretty much ..... and all the folks who argued against the trade will be out in full force ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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