Greatest NHL Teams

[Kings Redeem LA]

 

Nhl.com has rolled out this fun one as part of the

NHL's centennial celebration:

 

https://greatestnhlteams.com/

 

I kicked things off by picking the 1976-1977 Canadiens

over the 1991-1992 Penguins despite Lemieux's greatness

and Jagr's hair.

 

The Top Ten All Time NHL Teams will be announced during

this year's Stanley Cup Final.

 

Here's a great link to dive into the centennial celebration,

to review and to learn some great stuff:

 

https://www.nhl.com/fans/nhl-centennial

 

 

[nossagog]

8 hours ago, thenewestlights said:

 

Nhl.com has rolled out this fun one as part of the

NHL's centennial celebration:

 

https://greatestnhlteams.com/

 

I kicked things off by picking the 1976-1977 Canadiens

over the 1991-1992 Penguins despite Lemieux's greatness

and Jagr's hair.

 

The Top Ten All Time NHL Teams will be announced during

this year's Stanley Cup Final.

 

Here's a great link to dive into the centennial celebration,

to review and to learn some great stuff:

 

https://www.nhl.com/fans/nhl-centennial

 

 

To be honest, I thought that the 92-93 Penguins was probably the  best Pens team ever, but they were eliminated by the Isles in the second round on David Volek's Game 7 OT goal.    Mario Lemieux,Jaromir Jagr, Ron Francis,KevinStevens, Rick Tochett, Martin Straka and Joey Mullen as the top forwards.  This was also the year that  Lemieux scored 160 points in 60 games, the games missed were due to the radiation treatments for Hodgkins.   His comeback to overtake Pat Lafontaine for the Art Ross trophy is still talked about by Pens fans.  Four players with over 100 points.  17 game winning streak after Lemieux's return which still stands as the NHL's longest winning streak.  

[FD19372]

The Montreal Canadiens of 1976-77 were the greatest team of All-Time. They had 11 Hall of Famers on that team, not even including their Hall of Fame coach. They allowed only 171 goals through 80 games, and led the league with 387. They could play any other team any way they wanted to, and beat them. Oh, by the way, they only lost 8 times in 80 games. I don't think that will feat will ever be equaled or surpassed by any NHL hockey team ever again.

[JR Ewing]

6 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

The Montreal Canadiens of 1976-77 were the greatest team of All-Time. They had 11 Hall of Famers on that team, not even including their Hall of Fame coach. They allowed only 171 goals through 80 games, and led the league with 387. They could play any other team any way they wanted to, and beat them. Oh, by the way, they only lost 8 times in 80 games. I don't think that will feat will ever be equaled or surpassed by any NHL hockey team ever again.

 

Let's hope not. All it took was the NHL allowing Sam Pollock to rig the league in his favour.

 

[yave1964]

  The 76-77 Habs hold the crown hands down, I would rank the 2001-02 Wings a distant second. HOFers everywhere, Shanny, Yzerman, Larionov, a baby Datsyuk, Luc Robitaille, Brett Hull, Lidstrom, Chelios, Hasek, the same Scotty Bowman behind the bench. Good lord I forgot Federov that is how great the team was. Ten HOFers on the ice every night and the spear carriers were guys like Draper and Holmstrom Mccarty and Duchene who all had long productive careers. Just an immensely talented team.

 

  The salary cap has ruined teams chances of building like that again. The previous season the Wings were upset in the first round by the Kings and the club added Hull, Robitaille and Hasek for little more than money. Nowadays under current rules that will never happen again.

[Kings Redeem LA]

13 hours ago, nossagog said:

To be honest, I thought that the 92-93 Penguins was probably the  best Pens team ever, but they were eliminated by the Isles in the second round on David Volek's Game 7 OT goal.    Mario Lemieux,Jaromir Jagr, Ron Francis,KevinStevens, Rick Tochett, Martin Straka and Joey Mullen as the top forwards.  This was also the year that  Lemieux scored 160 points in 60 games, the games missed were due to the radiation treatments for Hodgkins.   His comeback to overtake Pat Lafontaine for the Art Ross trophy is still talked about by Pens fans.  Four players with over 100 points.  17 game winning streak after Lemieux's return which still stands as the NHL's longest winning streak.  

 

I tend to agree. That Pens' lineup and regular-season run was

nuts. It'll be interesting to see if winning the Cup be a

criterion for a team to contend as: Greatest. For everything that

Al Arbour and the New York Islanders achieved, his

greatest coaching feat, and their greatest accomplishment, 

may have been knocking off the '92 - '93 Penguins. 

 

I would have loved to see the Pens win three straight Cups. Though

the Kings were and remain my team, going all the way back to the 

days of Dionne and an owner who called purple "crown blue," 

Mario remains my favorite individual player. His ability to return from 

incredible physical setbacks and perform at such high levels*, as you've 

laid out well here , as well as his psychotic playoff production  

in Cup finals, and just the brilliance he brought to the ice as a graceful 

big man who could also punch a fool when needed...  I still get 

star-struck to this day. Even when it's something as simple as seeing

the camera panning to him just sitting in a box seat. I imagine if I ever 

met the guy it might look something like this: 

 

combined with this:  and this: 

 

* If I'm remembering correctly an article about Lemieux that I read years 

ago, he scored two points in every game that he played after returning 

from an extended injury or setback that lasted weeks or longer. Unreal. 

 

 

[Kings Redeem LA]

12 hours ago, FD19372 said:

The Montreal Canadiens of 1976-77 were the greatest team of All-Time. They had 11 Hall of Famers on that team, not even including their Hall of Fame coach. They allowed only 171 goals through 80 games, and led the league with 387. They could play any other team any way they wanted to, and beat them. Oh, by the way, they only lost 8 times in 80 games. I don't think that will feat will ever be equaled or surpassed by any NHL hockey team ever again.

 

That team was all kinds of psycho.

 

And I do love me some Guy Lafleur

[Kings Redeem LA]

12 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Let's hope not. All it took was the NHL allowing Sam Pollock to rig the league in his favour.

 

 

Hey JR...! Are you referring to something I once watched or heard about Montreal getting 

preferential draft treatment with Quebec players...? Or that plus other things? 

 

Do you have a link you can post here, elsewhere on the site, about that? Or's there 

a good one already up? 

 

[Kings Redeem LA]

6 hours ago, yave1964 said:

  The 76-77 Habs hold the crown hands down, I would rank the 2001-02 Wings a distant second. HOFers everywhere, Shanny, Yzerman, Larionov, a baby Datsyuk, Luc Robitaille, Brett Hull, Lidstrom, Chelios, Hasek, the same Scotty Bowman behind the bench. Good lord I forgot Federov that is how great the team was. Ten HOFers on the ice every night and the spear carriers were guys like Draper and Holmstrom Mccarty and Duchene who all had long productive careers. Just an immensely talented team.

 

  The salary cap has ruined teams chances of building like that again. The previous season the Wings were upset in the first round by the Kings and the club added Hull, Robitaille and Hasek for little more than money. Nowadays under current rules that will never happen again.

 

That Red Wings team was something else to watch. And as 

I read your reminder about their lineup, my jaw points southward. 

I was happy too to see Luc, my favorite King, win a Cup.

 

Current rules make me appreciate even more modern teams, 

such as Chicago, Pittsburgh, and *cough*   LA! , 

that've won multiple titles in recent years. 

[JR Ewing]

29 minutes ago, thenewestlights said:

 

Hey JR...! Are you referring to something I once watched or heard about Montreal getting 

preferential draft treatment with Quebec players...? Or that plus other things? 

 

Do you have a link you can post here, elsewhere on the site, about that? Or's there 

a good one already up? 

 

 

This is a long post, but there's no quick way to tell the tale...

 

 

When the NHL decided it was time to expand, the expansion committee (which really was just Clarence Campbell) decided that the person who would do the best job at creating the expansion draft rules would be Sam Pollock. We have to stop and think about this for a moment: they put a GM in charge of setting the rule about which players he and his competitors would have to give up. It would be the same as if the league expanded today, but they left it all up to Ken Holland. Whose interests do you think he'd be looking out for? Mind boggling, but that's the NHL for you.

 

Before draft day 1967, the NHL had decided that each of the Original 6 teams could protect 11 skaters, 1 goalie and 1 junior-aged player who had been signed the year before (and even that had been bumped up from 8-1-1). Pollock's "problem" was that the Habs had a huge network of players in their minor league system, and he knew a lot of those guys would go. Hell, at this time, they had two AHL and two WHL teams... Four minor pro. Unreal.

 

Did he want those players picked by other teams? Oh hell yes.

 

Pollock looked up and down his and his 5 other competitor's rosters, the players' ages and pro experience, and then drafted rules to create a huge exemption for himself: players who had played professionally for the first time in the 1966–67 season were ineligible from being picked until their team had filled their protected list with at least two goaltenders and eighteen other players.

 

Due to the size of the Habs farm system, it was their players being picked more than any of the other Original 6 teams, and he knew it would be that way. By the time the 10 round had gone by, Pollock didn't even have to bother protecting guys like Serge Savard or Rogie Vachon. Pollock was able to sit on all of his best young and prime-aged players, while mostly just giving up 3rd and 4th liners.  Nobody was really choosing the other teams' guys, but for the key pieces. So, BOOM! The Bruins lose Bernie Parent, completely unable to protect him. Boom! The Hawks were basically cleaned out.

 

Pollock's amendment allowed him to keep every single one of his best prospects while his competitors all lost some of theirs.

---

Aside from all of this, Pollock colluded with other GMs. From the book "Behind the Moves", Frank Selke Jr:
 

Quote

 

Sam Pollock offered me Carol Vadnais before the Intra-League draft. He was playing for Sam in the minor leagues. Sam said “I can leave him off the protected list on the proviso that when I want him back, whether it is next year or two years or what, I get him.” Bill Torrey and I were together at this time and we figured ‘how can we lose?’ So we said “sure, we’ll take him, Sam.” So we got Carol and he played like gangbusters. Sam comes to us at the end of the year and says “I can use him now.” I said “well Sam, we can’t just return him. We’ve got to get something for him. He’s our best player, he’s what we’re selling in Oakland.”

 

Well Sam was in our suite at the annual meetings and he’s……chewing on his tie……“well, what would you want?” “We’d need someone like Bobby Rousseau” “You can’t have Rousseau” “Well, we need somebody like this” “You can’t have that.” So then I said to Sam “Well I guess that being the case  you can’t have Carol.” Sam said “You made a deal!” I said “would you like me to go to Mr. Campbell and tell him that we colluded with you to hide a player?” He (Sam) said “you wouldn’t do that” and I said “well, I’d do it before I’d lose Vadnais.” He got up and walked out and that was it, but those were the kinds of things Sam did.

 

 

 

 

 

Another General Manager is here, telling us about how, after Pollock created ineligibility rules to protect his team the most, conspired with other GMs to not give up the little bits he stood to lose.

 

The expansion teams, particularly in California, where there was nothing resembling a hockey market, were in trouble, and it helped make for desperate GMs. They needed NHL players they could sell to the public, and since Pollock was neck deep in actual NHL players and swimming in the filth of outstanding young prospects that he didn't have to lose on draft day, starting unloading decent players for high picks.  From 1969 to 1974, the Habs had 17-1st round picks and 8-2nd rounders. In '72, they had 4 of the first 14 picks, and in 1974, they had 5 of the first 15 picks.

 

Just look at some of these deals:

-June 11, 1968 trades Gerry Desjardins to Los Angeles for the Kings first round picks in 1969 and 1972 (Steve Shutt)

-January 23, 1970 trades Dick Duff to Los Angeles for Dennis Hextall and the Kings second round pick in 1971 (Larry Robinson).

-May 22, 1970 trades Francois Lacombe and cash to California for the Golden Seals 1st round pick (Guy Lafleur).

-May 29, 1973 trades Bob Murdoch and Randy Rota to Los Angeles for cash and the Kings first round pick in 1974 (Mario Tremblay).

 

I'm sure there's some that I'm forgetting, but you get the idea.

 

But hey, none of this should be a surprise by now: this league was re-formed from the NHA to get rid of a pain in the ass owner. From NHL really equaling Norris House League (more on this below) for about three decades, to letting a GM write the rules his competitors would live by, it's always been a bit of a bush league.

 

I'm tired of hearing about how the 70s Habs are the greatest team ever. They should be. After all, their General Manager was given carte blanche to set up things in his own favor.

 

TLDR - Sam Pollock was given the right to create expansion draft rules which served his team above all others. He colluded with other GMs to help protect the players he wanted and created a sort of desperation among the expansion GMs which allowed him pick the bones for what he wanted. It ended up making the results of much of the 1970s kind of a joke.

 

 

---

NHL = Norris House League

 

For awhile there, the Bruce Norris owned the Red Wings, while his brother James co-owned the Black Hawks (two words back then...). James also owned Madison Square Garden, quietly giving him controlling interest in the Rangers as well, and 3 of the NHL's 6 buildings. Arenas proved to be lucrative to James Norris, who ended up owning a network of arenas across the US, filling it with the usual trade shows, Ice Capades and boxing matches.

 

Fun bit of info: Norris and Arthur Wirtz (owner of the Hawks, Bulls, co-owner with Norris of Red Wings, and owner of Chicago Stadium) formed the IBC, and started promoting boxing cards out of his arenas, most notably MSG, and in short order had a complete stranglehold on championship boxing matches. This was problematic for Norris, as he had founded the IBC to create the perception that he really wasn't monopolizing professional boxing in the US. He ended up stepping aside as IBC President, and the promotion was quickly purchased... by Madison Square Garden Group, which (of course) was owned by James Norris himself.

 

In the end, the IBC was declared a monopoly and ordered to be dissolved, with Norris selling his interests in 1959. Soon after, the Senate subcommittee into organized crime found that the IBC had numerous underworld ties to mobsters like Frankie Carbo, Lucky Luciano, and lots of other scary guys. Fortunate that Norris was lucky enough to sell out before the hammer came down, eh? Integrity? NHL? Hmm...

 

[Kings Redeem LA]

10 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

This is a long post, but there's no quick way to tell the tale...

 

 

When the NHL decided it was time to expand, the expansion committee (which really was just Clarence Campbell) decided that the person who would do the best job at creating the expansion draft rules would be Sam Pollock. We have to stop and think about this for a moment: they put a GM in charge of setting the rule about which players he and his competitors would have to give up. It would be the same as if the league expanded today, but they left it all up to Ken Holland. Whose interests do you think he'd be looking out for? Mind boggling, but that's the NHL for you.

 

Before draft day 1967, the NHL had decided that each of the Original 6 teams could protect 11 skaters, 1 goalie and 1 junior-aged player who had been signed the year before (and even that had been bumped up from 8-1-1). Pollock's "problem" was that the Habs had a huge network of players in their minor league system, and he knew a lot of those guys would go. Hell, at this time, they had two AHL and two WHL teams... Four minor pro. Unreal.

 

Did he want those players picked by other teams? Oh hell yes.

 

Pollock looked up and down his and his 5 other competitor's rosters, the players' ages and pro experience, and then drafted rules to create a huge exemption for himself: players who had played professionally for the first time in the 1966–67 season were ineligible from being picked until their team had filled their protected list with at least two goaltenders and eighteen other players.

 

Due to the size of the Habs farm system, it was their players being picked more than any of the other Original 6 teams, and he knew it would be that way. By the time the 10 round had gone by, Pollock didn't even have to bother protecting guys like Serge Savard or Rogie Vachon. Pollock was able to sit on all of his best young and prime-aged players, while mostly just giving up 3rd and 4th liners.  Nobody was really choosing the other teams' guys, but for the key pieces. So, BOOM! The Bruins lose Bernie Parent, completely unable to protect him. Boom! The Hawks were basically cleaned out.

 

Pollock's amendment allowed him to keep every single one of his best prospects while his competitors all lost some of theirs.

---

Aside from all of this, Pollock colluded with other GMs. From the book "Behind the Moves", Frank Selke Jr:
 

 

Another General Manager is here, telling us about how, after Pollock created ineligibility rules to protect his team the most, conspired with other GMs to not give up the little bits he stood to lose.

 

The expansion teams, particularly in California, where there was nothing resembling a hockey market, were in trouble, and it helped make for desperate GMs. They needed NHL players they could sell to the public, and since Pollock was neck deep in actual NHL players and swimming in the filth of outstanding young prospects that he didn't have to lose on draft day, starting unloading decent players for high picks.  From 1969 to 1974, the Habs had 17-1st round picks and 8-2nd rounders. In '72, they had 4 of the first 14 picks, and in 1974, they had 5 of the first 15 picks.

 

Just look at some of these deals:

-June 11, 1968 trades Gerry Desjardins to Los Angeles for the Kings first round picks in 1969 and 1972 (Steve Shutt)

-January 23, 1970 trades Dick Duff to Los Angeles for Dennis Hextall and the Kings second round pick in 1971 (Larry Robinson).

-May 22, 1970 trades Francois Lacombe and cash to California for the Golden Seals 1st round pick (Guy Lafleur).

-May 29, 1973 trades Bob Murdoch and Randy Rota to Los Angeles for cash and the Kings first round pick in 1974 (Mario Tremblay).

 

I'm sure there's some that I'm forgetting, but you get the idea.

 

But hey, none of this should be a surprise by now: this league was re-formed from the NHA to get rid of a pain in the ass owner. From NHL really equaling Norris House League (more on this below) for about three decades, to letting a GM write the rules his competitors would live by, it's always been a bit of a bush league.

 

I'm tired of hearing about how the 70s Habs are the greatest team ever. They should be. After all, their General Manager was given carte blanche to set up things in his own favor.

 

TLDR - Sam Pollock was given the right to create expansion draft rules which served his team above all others. He colluded with other GMs to help protect the players he wanted and created a sort of desperation among the expansion GMs which allowed him pick the bones for what he wanted. It ended up making the results of much of the 1970s kind of a joke.

 

 

---

NHL = Norris House League

 

For awhile there, the Bruce Norris owned the Red Wings, while his brother James co-owned the Black Hawks (two words back then...). James also owned Madison Square Garden, quietly giving him controlling interest in the Rangers as well, and 3 of the NHL's 6 buildings. Arenas proved to be lucrative to James Norris, who ended up owning a network of arenas across the US, filling it with the usual trade shows, Ice Capades and boxing matches.

 

Fun bit of info: Norris and Arthur Wirtz (owner of the Hawks, Bulls, co-owner with Norris of Red Wings, and owner of Chicago Stadium) formed the IBC, and started promoting boxing cards out of his arenas, most notably MSG, and in short order had a complete stranglehold on championship boxing matches. This was problematic for Norris, as he had founded the IBC to create the perception that he really wasn't monopolizing professional boxing in the US. He ended up stepping aside as IBC President, and the promotion was quickly purchased... by Madison Square Garden Group, which (of course) was owned by James Norris himself.

 

In the end, the IBC was declared a monopoly and ordered to be dissolved, with Norris selling his interests in 1959. Soon after, the Senate subcommittee into organized crime found that the IBC had numerous underworld ties to mobsters like Frankie Carbo, Lucky Luciano, and lots of other scary guys. Fortunate that Norris was lucky enough to sell out before the hammer came down, eh? Integrity? NHL? Hmm...

 

 

 

 

Wow! 

 

The fact the NHL even considered let alone allowed a GM 

to head that process and do those things... I wonder how many fans

were hip to all that and crying out about what it was doing

to the league and to their respective teams' chances for success. 

 

  

[JR Ewing]

1 hour ago, thenewestlights said:

 

 

 

Wow! 

 

The fact the NHL even considered let alone allowed a GM 

to head that process and do those things... I wonder how many fans

were hip to all that and crying out about what it was doing

to the league and to their respective teams' chances for success. 

 

  

 

Hell, it's 2017 and I'm STILL moaning about it.

 

[Kings Redeem LA]

1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Hell, it's 2017 and I'm STILL moaning about it.

 

 

And for good reason! 

 

It's another troubling example where context complicates 

surface glamour. 

 

 

[yave1964]

@JR Ewing

 

A couple of things...

 

The draft pick that became Guy Lafleur was not traded from the Seals FOR Lacombe but was traded to Montreal along with Lacombe in exchange for the Seals first rounder and Ernie Hicke. Hicke played (poorly) for two seasons for the Seals before being given up on and exposed in the expansion draft and taken by the Flames. Still among the greatest fleecing in the history of the game.

 

The Murdoch for a draft pick (Tremblay) move actually was a decent Hockey move by the Kings, Murdoch went on to a pretty fine career, it was just a shrewd draft pick of Tremblay that has it on the radar.

 

Yes Pollock being allowed to set the rules for the initiial expansion and the absurdity that was allowing the Habs first crack at a Franco player was simply obscene absolutely no doubt about it. But the other five older teams all played under the same rules and even with the tilted playing field the four year run of excellence that was the greatest team ever did not occur until a decade after expansion hit the NHL. In the first years after the expansion Boston won (twice) the Flyers won (twice) and Montreal won (three times). During the early years of expansion not only the Canadiens but other established clubs came calling to the new teams, offering scraps for draft picks and the new teams had little choice if they wanted to put something that more resembled silk purse than sows ear. What Pollock had going for him was a ridiculously stocked farm system and the fact that he was a shrewd manager. Only the Flyers and Blues resisted the older teams poaching to any significant amount.

 

  I know it is easy to blur things as time goes by, the Wings won four cups from 97 thru 08 and to me they are the same team but there were only four players who remained throughout the decade. A decade is a lifetime in Hockey, Hell five years is a lifetime when it comes to building or tearing down a team.

 

 The two things that IMHO allowed for the dynasty that was the late 1970's that I would rank even higher than Pollocks poaching are:

 

1)The Canadiens patience. Henri Richard and Jean Beliveau retired and Lafleur was booed nightly, Dryden took a year off, the team looked as if it were being passed by the Bruins and Flyers with others on their heels. Instead of blowing it up when many in Quebec were demanding it and starting over, they recognized the skill that they had. and held on as the youth continued to develop.

 

2) The WHA hit the Bruins HARD. Cheevers was elite, among the best in the game and was lost for several years to Cleveland in the WHA and while still very good was no longer elite upon his return. The combo of Eddie Johnston and Gil Gilbert simply were not as good. Derek Sanderson is largely remembered today as the face of everything that was wrong with the WHA by taking millions when he was not worth it from the Blazers but what is largely forgotten is he was a magnificent two way center, among the best PK guys if not the best. After his WHA experience he put up decent numbers on his NHL farewell tour but was never the same. John McKenzie was another one, a solid point a game winger who left in a huff when he felt he was unapreciated by Sinden and Schmidt. Shaky Walton was another one, a brilliant passer who led the WHA in scoring one year and was sorely missed by the Bears. Terrible Ted Green was a nasty piece of work on the back end who they lost to the new league as well.And a largely forgotten goalie named Dan bouchard was allowed to be taken by the Flames in expansion because they thought they were going to be able to keep Cheevers, Bouchard if he had remained in Boston, IMHO would be a hall of famer. And speaking of losing players, Bobby Orr's criplling knee injuries certainly made a difference in the power rankings.

  I may even rank that number one. With Cheevers, Sanderson, Walton, Green and McKenzie IMHO there is no way that the Bruins would not have won at least one cup during that time. If Orr had remained healthy they likely at worst would have split those four late seventies Canadien triumphs. Without them they were the team that always pushed the Canadiens the hardest.

 

  So my long answer is that the Canadien dynasty was a decade post expansion and the Habs did poach and pick up key components by using organizational depth and existing rules to pick up key pieces but they were very patient as guys like Robinson and Lafleur struggled early before putting it all together, yes I could not agree more that allowing Pollock to set up the expansion rules was akin to letting the fox guard the hen house but it was the Bruins and later the Flyers who dominated the early seventies, and the Bruins raided hard by the WHA took them down a notch to where they lost heartbreakers to the Habs consistently thereafter.

 

 Just my two cents.