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yave1964

Marleau turns over new Leaf

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yave1964    1,789

This one was a bit of a surprise, 

619213420.0.jpg

after spending his entire career with the Sharks Patrick Marleau who scored 508 goals for San Jose along with 574 assists has left to join the baby Leafs in Toronto.

  The term and the money seem a bit high to me, three years at a little over eighteen million bucks six million bucks a year for a declining winger who can still score but whose best days are clearly behind him. The other thing is his age he is over 35 so his contract cannot be bought out, the Leafs are on the hook for all three years regardless.

 

  This likely sets up another deal, I read two reports on the trade over the last half an hour and both said that JVR may be moved for a defenseman in the next few days.

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J0e Th0rnton    1,441

If Marleau thought SJ's media picked on him, he is in for a treat.

 

Not terribly surprised. As soon as he and Joe did not announce terms together, I figured he was gone to Babcock. They have announced coming to terms together for over a decade.

 

JVR for a defenseman? What sort of defenseman?

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yave1964    1,789
6 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

If Marleau thought SJ's media picked on him, he is in for a treat.

 

Not terribly surprised. As soon as he and Joe did not announce terms together, I figured he was gone to Babcock. They have announced coming to terms together for over a decade.

 

JVR for a defenseman? What sort of defenseman?

One fan sight has him linked to Florida for Demers who is on the outs in Sunrise, I just got done writing up a list of the 16 NHL ready forwards in the Leaf system right now, kids like soshnikov, Leivo and Kapanen will be fighting for scraps unless a top nine winger is moved out and that may be a great match. Florida is unbelievably thin among their forwards. 

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WordsOfWisdom    827
On 7/2/2017 at 7:03 PM, J0e Th0rnton said:

If Marleau thought SJ's media picked on him, he is in for a treat.

 

Not terribly surprised. As soon as he and Joe did not announce terms together, I figured he was gone to Babcock. They have announced coming to terms together for over a decade.

 

JVR for a defenseman? What sort of defenseman?

 

It could easily be JVR + someone not part of Toronto's core group for a noteworthy defenceman. 

 

It would be nice to see Toronto land a big name guy. I'm sure there are a few names out there that could picture themselves playing in Toronto right now (for the first time in their career). 

 

You could be the big fish in a small pond playing in some of the NHL's beach-front locations, and nobody will ever really remember your career when it's over. Or you can play in a hockey market like Toronto, help the team win a Cup, book your ticket to the HOF, and become a statue someday. :)

 

 

 

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Bertmega    1,027

When did Paul Holmgren become Toronto's GM?

 

 

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On 2017-07-02 at 5:03 PM, J0e Th0rnton said:

If Marleau thought SJ's media picked on him, he is in for a treat.

 

Not terribly surprised. As soon as he and Joe did not announce terms together, I figured he was gone to Babcock. They have announced coming to terms together for over a decade.

 

JVR for a defenseman? What sort of defenseman?

 

You are right about that. He will not be able to escape the media in Toronto.

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Trefilov22    12
On 7/4/2017 at 10:57 PM, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

It could easily be JVR + someone not part of Toronto's core group for a noteworthy defenceman. 

 

It would be nice to see Toronto land a big name guy. I'm sure there are a few names out there that could picture themselves playing in Toronto right now (for the first time in their career). 

 

You could be the big fish in a small pond playing in some of the NHL's beach-front locations, and nobody will ever really remember your career when it's over. Or you can play in a hockey market like Toronto, help the team win a Cup, book your ticket to the HOF, and become a statue someday. :)

 

 

 

 

And when was the last time a Player has won a Cup with the Leaf's?

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WordsOfWisdom    827
3 hours ago, Trefilov22 said:

 

And when was the last time a Player has won a Cup with the Leaf's?

 

In the time before time. :IDunnoSmiley:

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jammer2    4,712
On 7/8/2017 at 8:49 AM, Bertmega said:

When did Paul Holmgren become Toronto's GM?

 

 

 

 ha ha....funny, but it has a twinge of truth to it. Signing Marleau seems to be the shiny new toy kind of Homerisitic thing. It blocks younger players from the top 6, and gives a 3 year cap hit. I would have been ok with 2 if I was the Leafs, the last year is big. It will come at a time when the cap crunch for Matthews and Marner will get paid....and not bridge deals. Having said all that, you can make the argument that adding Marleau will help the Leafs go further in the playoffs, get the most out of their young core....he can still skate, which is big. Maybe adding Marleau gives the Leafs another playoff round, hell, maybe even puts them over the top if the kids continue to rise as expected. It has it's risks, but you can make a case for positives. Myself, I woulda laid off, stay patient and save the cap space for guys who are young and can contribute when the young core is fully developed. 

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WordsOfWisdom    827
On 8/9/2017 at 4:12 PM, jammer2 said:

Maybe adding Marleau gives the Leafs another playoff round, hell, maybe even puts them over the top if the kids continue to rise as expected. It has it's risks, but you can make a case for positives. Myself, I woulda laid off, stay patient and save the cap space for guys who are young and can contribute when the young core is fully developed. 

 

Leafs needs defence. Leafs sign Marleau.

 

Do we have a smiley face emoticon with a gun blowing his brains out yet?  :bonkingheadonwall:

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J0e Th0rnton    1,441
2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Leafs needs defence. Leafs sign Marleau.

 

Do we have a smiley face emoticon with a gun blowing his brains out yet?  :bonkingheadonwall:

Shattenkirk was the only UFA of note and he was dead set on new York. Better waiting for other options and filling out depth at forward 

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WordsOfWisdom    827
44 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Shattenkirk was the only UFA of note and he was dead set on new York. Better waiting for other options and filling out depth at forward 

 

I guess.  :lookssad:

 

It just feels like the current NHL system doesn't allow teams to change their roster. You can't sign guys. You can't get rid of guys. Whatever you have, you're stuck with it forever. I miss the days when every off-season would have a list of elite free agent players that could be signed by the highest bidder. Not a handful of players, but 50+ players that were up for grabs year after year.

 

The Leafs can't afford to blow their 5-year window of opportunity spending 6 years trying to acquire a quality defenceman to improve the existing cast. That's the trouble. While you can always try to create your own new stars (a hit or miss notion at best), it doesn't all come together at the right time to capitalize on that window. Sometimes you need guys that are stars now/today and you don't have the time to develop them. :)

 

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J0e Th0rnton    1,441
2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I guess.  :lookssad:

 

It just feels like the current NHL system doesn't allow teams to change their roster. You can't sign guys. You can't get rid of guys. Whatever you have, you're stuck with it forever. I miss the days when every off-season would have a list of elite free agent players that could be signed by the highest bidder. Not a handful of players, but 50+ players that were up for grabs year after year.

 

The Leafs can't afford to blow their 5-year window of opportunity spending 6 years trying to acquire a quality defenceman to improve the existing cast. That's the trouble. While you can always try to create your own new stars (a hit or miss notion at best), it doesn't all come together at the right time to capitalize on that window. Sometimes you need guys that are stars now/today and you don't have the time to develop them. :)

 

Of course you do. The teams with the top 3 payrolls leading up to the salary cap era were the rangers, Leafs and Red wings.

 

But it was crippling for over half the teams in the league who had to watch as teams with deep pockets robbed their rosters. I hope we never go back to those days. There was no provisions for stopping a player from holding out their existing contracts to negotiate new ones MID CONTRACT.

 

The Salary cap is one of the best things to happen to hockey in terms of Parity. The teams with clutch amazing players still win multiple cups and we don't have franchises folding left right and center

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WordsOfWisdom    827
1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Of course you do. The teams with the top 3 payrolls leading up to the salary cap era were the rangers, Leafs and Red wings.

 

:shakeit:  Oh yeah! :money:

 

1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

But it was crippling for over half the teams in the league who had to watch as teams with deep pockets robbed their rosters.

 

:Whiney::IDunnoSmiley:  I know, but you can take comfort from the fact that it works that way in the other major pro sports. 

 

1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

The Salary cap is one of the best things to happen to hockey in terms of Parity.

 

:lookssad:

 

Assuming of course that parity is a good thing.

 

If all the teams are the same quality on the ice, then fans should all be paying the same price to watch them. That would be fair right?

 

That's the trouble with any system the league implements: there are always winners and losers. In a cap based league, the biggest losers are the most profitable franchises and the fans that pay top dollar to watch them. If you abolish the cap, the biggest losers would be the teams that don't generate enough revenue to retain their top players.   

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jammer2    4,712
7 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

The Leafs can't afford to blow their 5-year window of opportunity spending 6 years trying to acquire a quality defenceman to improve the existing cast. That's the trouble. While you can always try to create your own new stars (a hit or miss notion at best), it doesn't all come together at the right time to capitalize on that window. Sometimes you need guys that are stars now/today and you don't have the time to develop them. :)

 

 Strategically speaking, I don't think the Leafs should be out buying up UFA d-men. I think this years first rounder Liligren is a STAR....he will be contributing in 2 years....this Rosen Swedish dman already skates like an NHL dman...McDermot is ready, might make the Leafs right now....signing vets to long term deals blocks these kids....and you already have Gardnier and Riley, who will still be in their primes in 5 years....or close to it. The Leafs NEED these talented but CHEAP D prospects coming into the fold, cause the forwards will take a BIG chunk of the cap in a few years. 

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jammer2    4,712

Does the 500 goals and 1000 pts get Marleau into the HOF, or does he need to win a Cup to squeeze in there?  Of course, he could make it a non issue if he keeps scoring 50+ pts for the next 3 or 4 years....PLUS, he has played great for Canada internationally, which counts also. 

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notfondajane    265
1 hour ago, jammer2 said:

Does the 500 goals and 1000 pts get Marleau into the HOF, or does he need to win a Cup to squeeze in there?  Of course, he could make it a non issue if he keeps scoring 50+ pts for the next 3 or 4 years....PLUS, he has played great for Canada internationally, which counts also. 

I don't think it should matter! 

The Cup is won by a team not a individual player! 

Marleau might make it to the HOF!:VeryCool:

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jammer2    4,712
25 minutes ago, notfondajane said:

I don't think it should matter! 

The Cup is won by a team not a individual player! 

Marleau might make it to the HOF!:VeryCool:

 

 I think Cups are secondary kinda considerations when talking HOF....but it's the kind of thing that puts you over the top sometimes. Gold medals are won by teams, yet they are also a factor. 

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WordsOfWisdom    827
2 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Does the 500 goals and 1000 pts get Marleau into the HOF, or does he need to win a Cup to squeeze in there?  Of course, he could make it a non issue if he keeps scoring 50+ pts for the next 3 or 4 years....PLUS, he has played great for Canada internationally, which counts also. 

 

He played through the dead puck era, so perhaps. Players aren't accumulating massive point totals any more like they did in the 80's. :)

 

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J0e Th0rnton    1,441
21 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Does the 500 goals and 1000 pts get Marleau into the HOF, or does he need to win a Cup to squeeze in there?  Of course, he could make it a non issue if he keeps scoring 50+ pts for the next 3 or 4 years....PLUS, he has played great for Canada internationally, which counts also. 

Compiling point totals while never being a top 10 player in the league isn't hall of fame worthy IMO. He has never even been the best player on his own team.

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jammer2    4,712
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Compiling point totals while never being a top 10 player in the league isn't hall of fame worthy IMO. He has never even been the best player on his own team.

 

 I had a feeling you would come down on that side of the ledger. I do believe if he plays a major role in a Leafs cup win (felt dirty just typing that) it would push him over the top. With no cup, he would need to keep scoring at a brisk pace for quite a while longer....even then, it would take a weak HOF year. 

 

 

 I remember from the past that international play is important. He was one of Canada's best players many times....that has to count for something. 

Edited by jammer2

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jammer2    4,712
2 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Compiling point totals while never being a top 10 player in the league isn't hall of fame worthy IMO. He has never even been the best player on his own team.

 

 

 Did a bit of research....first off, players with similar career arcs....some VERY nice players he is being compared with. 

 

 A few things of note....

1)Playoff pt totals...177 GP/68Goals/52Assists/120 career playoff points. 

2) 4 short handed playoff goals

3) 3 post season hat tricks

4) 4 career penalty shot goals

5) 16 career playoff Game Winning Goals....WOW, this helps him a LOT, 16...the same number for a team to in the cup, that is huge. Basically, Marleau is one of *THE* best money players of all time, the stats prove it. 

6)98  (WOW) career game winning goals....good for 7th all time. 

7)160 career power play goals....good for 33rd all time

8)1493 career games played....20th all time....takes a bit of a bite out his production, this means a lower pts per game total. 

9)331 career even strength regular season goals.

10)1082 career points, only good for 62nd all time.

 

 Has played in 2 Olympic games for Canada and has 2 Gold Medals

4 appearances in the World Championships for Canada...3 tourny wins.

 

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Thru 18 Years Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst)
Player   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Patrick Marleau   11.4 9.4 9.2 8.8 8.6 8.5 8.0 7.0 6.8 6.1 6.0 5.4 5.3 5.1 4.7 4.5 3.6 3.1

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J0e Th0rnton    1,441
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

 

 Did a bit of research....first off, players with similar career arcs....some VERY nice players he is being compared with. 

 

 A few things of note....

1)Playoff pt totals...177 GP/68Goals/52Assists/120 career playoff points. 

2) 4 short handed playoff goals

3) 3 post season hat tricks

4) 4 career penalty shot goals

5) 16 career playoff Game Winning Goals....WOW, this helps him a LOT, 16...the same number for a team to in the cup, that is huge. Basically, Marleau is one of *THE* best money players of all time, the stats prove it. 

6)98  (WOW) career game winning goals....good for 7th all time. 

7)160 career power play goals....good for 33rd all time

8)1493 career games played....20th all time....takes a bit of a bite out his production, this means a lower pts per game total. 

9)331 career even strength regular season goals.

10)1082 career points, only good for 62nd all time.

 

 Has played in 2 Olympic games for Canada and has 2 Gold Medals

4 appearances in the World Championships for Canada...3 tourny wins.

 

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Thru 18 Years Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst)
Player   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Patrick Marleau   11.4 9.4 9.2 8.8 8.6 8.5 8.0 7.0 6.8 6.1 6.0 5.4 5.3 5.1 4.7 4.5 3.6 3.1

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Again, he was "Very good" for a long time and consistent, but never top10 in the league.

 

There was never a year you were like "Wow, Patty is the best player in the league". There was never a year he was even top 10. Once or twice, he was a top 10 forward, but on the fringes of 9th.

 

He finished 4th and 6th in goals during his best years. 10th in assists once. Points top 10 NEVER. Good defensively but Was never a selke threat. Never a game breaker.

 

Most comparables on that list of your had arguments occasionally. Some should NOT be in the hall of fame. Nieuwendyk, Roenick, Andreychuk.

 

Others are in and deserve it, but Hawerchuk was top 10 in points several times, including 3rd and 4th place finishes in an era with Gretzky/Lemieux(Which makes it as good as 1st place normally). Same with Savard.

 

Oates buries Marleau in top 10 scoring finishes and has the distinction of being one of the greatest playmakers of all time(Much like his current teammate Jumbo Joe). Gilmour has multiple top 10 scoring finishes AND won and was high on the Selke list multiple seasons AND was top 5 in Hart voting 3+ times. Francis just buries patty too.

 

Mahovlich and Perreault both bury him in top 10 finishes with 5-10 seasons to his zero.

 

The closest Hall of fame comparison for Marleau to me is Mike Gartner, although Gartner has a few more top 10 goal finishes and a single top 10 point finish.

 

Quick recap:

For award finishes, unless you finished top 5, you probably only caught some fringe votes for 4th and 5th place, probably from SJ writers, so it barely counts. Example Marleau's career year.

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Thornton somehow managed to get 7 votes for the Hart from writers(one 4th, six 5th) the same year Marleau got 4 votes (three 4th, one 6th). The 5th place finisher got 89 votes.

 

Top 10 Scoring finishes and awards:

Marleau: top 10 Goals  twice, assists once in 10th, points, never. No award consideration.

Nieuwendyk: Goals 5, Assists points never. Awards no consideration. Why is he in the hall of fame

Francis: Goals none. Assists twelve top 10 finishes, twice 1st, points 5, four top 5 Selke finishes.

Perreault: top 10 in goals 4 times, top 10 in assists 5 times, top 10 in points 5 times, 5th for Hart trophy once.

Oates: top 10 in goals never. Top 10 in assists twelve times with 3 1st place finishes, top 10 in points seven times, with three of them being 3rd place(gretzky/Lemieux era). 4th place Hart finish, 5th place Selke finish.

Andreychuk: Why is he in the hall of fame? Top 10 in goals twice, assists once, points once. No award consideration.

Mahovlich: 8 top 10 goal scoring finishes(2nd 4 times), three top 10 assist finishes, 7 top 10 point finishes and two years in top 4-5 for the Hart.

Gilmour: Top 10 in goals once, top 10 in assists 5 times, top 10 in points 3 times, Finished top 2, 4 and 5 for the Hart and Won the Selke and had a runner up + another top 5 finish.

Hawerchuk: top 10 in goals three times, top 10 in assists five times, top 10 in points 4 times, 2nd and 5th hart finishes

Savard: top 10 in goals once, top 10 in assists five times, top 10 in points five times and finished 3rd and 5th for the Hart.

Roenick: top 10 in goals twice, top 10 in assists never, top 10 in points twice, no awards consideration. How is he in the hall of fame?

 

Yeah, Marleau only compares favorably to 3 guys on that list. Roenick, Nieuwendyk and Andreychuk. All of whom I do not think should be in the hall of fame.

 

This is nothing new I am preaching. I have been saying this about Marleau for YEARS, long before he left the team.

 

Edited by J0e Th0rnton

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         ha ha....funny, but it has a twinge of truth to it. Signing Marleau seems to be the shiny new toy kind of Homerisitic thing. It blocks younger players from the top 6, and gives a 3 year cap hit. I would have been ok with 2 if I was the Leafs, the last year is big. It will come at a time when the cap crunch for Matthews and Marner will get paid....and not bridge deals. Having said all that, you can make the argument that adding Marleau will help the Leafs go further in the playoffs, get the most out of their young core....he can still skate, which is big. Maybe adding Marleau gives the Leafs another playoff round, hell, maybe even puts them over the top if the kids continue to rise as expected. It has it's risks, but you can make a case for positives. Myself, I woulda laid off, stay patient and save the cap space for guys who are young and can contribute when the young core is fully developed. 
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        You are right about that. He will not be able to escape the media in Toronto.
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         Strategically speaking, I don't think the Leafs should be out buying up UFA d-men. I think this years first rounder Liligren is a STAR....he will be contributing in 2 years....this Rosen Swedish dman already skates like an NHL dman...McDermot is ready, might make the Leafs right now....signing vets to long term deals blocks these kids....and you already have Gardnier and Riley, who will still be in their primes in 5 years....or close to it. The Leafs NEED these talented but CHEAP D prospects coming into the fold, cause the forwards will take a BIG chunk of the cap in a few years. 

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