Sean Couturier Overdue for Breakout Season

[King Knut]

10 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

 

I dunno, when you need about a dozen paragraphs and countless IF statements to justify and predict why someone will increase their production, it's not a good sign.

 

The truth is, he's going in his SEVENTH season, he's already played 416 NHL games. He'll be 25 in December.

 

He is what he is. I would wager that two seasons ago was his statistical peak (39 points, 0.62 ppg). 23-24 years old is the median statistical peak of NHL players. 

 

There is nothing wrong with that. Every team needs defensively responsible players who can put up 30-40 points - and those guys are usually 3rd line-ish. That's what he is.

 

The issue some posters are having, as I see it and tend to agree, is EXPECTING more production from him when the evidence keeps mounting that it simply will not happen. If it ever does, awesome!!! We're all Flyer fans, and we'd all be excited! But it makes no logical sense to expect anything different from what we've seen over the past 416 games and SEVEN NHL seasons.

 

 

 

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding going on and that's probably just the apprehensive nature of boards like this and Philly Fandom in general.

 

By and large I agree with you, he is what he is... BUT that's actually pretty darn good.

The only IF statement I have about his scoring increasing is that IF the team fixes the problems that are causing Jake and G and Simmonds to be terrible even strength players and IF they start to do better, then coincidentally, Couturier will score more as well as a result.  In the mean time DESPITE the defense having these problems that lead to the REST OF ALL THE FORWARDS BEING GOD AWFUL at even strength hockey, Couturier did quite well even though hobbled by the same handicaps that plagued Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn and Voracek.  It's like losing a thumb and three fingers and complaining that the one left isn't strong enough despite managing to be the only one left.  

 

My larger point is not IF he will get better, but that what we're getting from him, the "what he is" part of "he is what he is" is very near to the best in the league in that role.  

 

In fact, by and large, the only way to get him on par with Bergeron & Toews is to increase his PP scoring which is something I don't advocate attempting to do at this point.  We tried it for a year.  It didn't work.  Let Patrick become what he's going to be.

 

Most of the other other IFs were literally about decisions Hakstol and Hextall will make that we can't yet predict.  

Like IF Patrick doesn't make the team or IF he does but they don't want him to center the 2nd unit as a rookie. 

 

My whole point is that we shouldn't be saying "he is what he is" like it's a bad thing.  He's not serviceable.  He's really quite good.  Not quite elite, top 5 in the league good yet... but pretty good.

And considering top 5 in the league in that role make 10.5 million, 10 million, 6.9 million, 6.9 million and 6.8 million, I'd say being "not quite there" at 4.3 million and 5 years younger than the youngest above him is pretty darn fine in my book.  

 

I'm far more concerned with Morin and Hagg and Sanheim making the team to give Ghost, Provo and Gudas better, more balanced pairings that can actually shut down a play and control an outlet so that Jake, G, Simmer and Val don't have to start each attack from inside their own dots so they can become + players again and score like first and 2nd liners.  It's my firm belief that IF this can happen, the whole team will score better (maybe even Coots) and the team will win a LOT more games.  

 

After that, I'll be focused on how Konecny progresses and what Lindblom and Patrick can show us.

 

Then I'd probably key on on what the hell Hextall's going to do with stone handed clones Read, Raffl, Weise and not Lehtera and if any of them are unseated by Laughton or Vecchione.

 

Oh yeah, then there's WTF is going to happen with Elliot and Neuvy.

 

After I get a solid handle on all that, then I might focus a little bit of energy on whether or not I'm satisfied with Couturier's scoring.    

 

Coots didn't score as much as we'd like, but he does everything else incredibly well.

The rest of the team also didn't score as much as we'd like and by and large they did everything else incredibly poorly. *

 

* I'll caveat that I thought Simmonds played the PK very well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brelic]

I get what you're saying, but we can't just ignore the last seven seasons. 

 

If he breaks out, awesome for him and the Flyers!!

But all the smart money would be on Couturier getting around 30-39 points, consistent with his previous 6 NHL seasons.

 

[King Knut]

29 minutes ago, brelic said:

I get what you're saying, but we can't just ignore the last seven seasons. 

 

If he breaks out, awesome for him and the Flyers!!

But all the smart money would be on Couturier getting around 30-39 points, consistent with his previous 6 NHL seasons.

 

 

I'm not asking anyone to ignore anything... except that 7th season that hasn't happened yet.   

You're saying we've had 6 seasons of Lemons and I'm sitting here happily drinking lemonade.  

 

When the worse thing we can say about him is that he's not quite as good as the guys making 75%-125% more than he does, then I'm saying, WIN WIN!

 

This team has bigger fish to fry.

 

 

[icehole]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Just ignore me if you can't cope with reason and logic.

 

Last question:  Why complain about the part of the car that is working but could be working better than the parts that simply are completely dysfunctional?

 

Don't get back to me.  Just go and ignore me.  

 

Since you brought up cars a few times, think about it this way.  You have 2 cars that you take to the track.  One is a golf R and the other is a audi R8.  The Golf R gets you into the top 10 fastest cars at the track and it never fails to take you home afterward (unless it gets a flat tire and misses 20 games...uhh I mean track days).  The R8 was getting you 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place trophies for a while and you were picking up chicks here and there.  But this past year, something happened and all cylinders weren't firing right in the R8.  It still might get you in the top 7, but some days it breaks down and you can't get home.  Which car are you taking to the track next year?

 

What player are you leaning on to help the team the most next year.  Voracek and Giroux have (or used to have?) the ability to have great games and maybe even take over a game or two by themselves.  Couturier doesn't have that.  He is a complimentary player.  That's why people don't give the other 2 as much guff...the other two have shown they can do it.  

 

If you look at game by game break downs from last season, all 3 have too many 0s in the pts column than I'd like.  But couturier has a lot of 0,0,0,0,1,0,0s.  While Giroux and voracek have more 0,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,3,0,0s.  They can have great games but for some reason didn't have enough last year.  I know I only focus on points but I think it's much easier to work on plus/minus than to improve your offensive production.

 

If you tell me that Giroux and voracek are career 60pt/-20 players, I'd dislike them just as much.  They're not though.  Couturier, however is a 34pt/+6 player in his career with nothing to show that he can do any more.

[brelic]

20 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm not asking anyone to ignore anything... except that 7th season that hasn't happened yet.   

You're saying we've had 6 seasons of Lemons and I'm sitting here happily drinking lemonade.  

 

When the worse thing we can say about him is that he's not quite as good as the guys making 75%-125% more than he does, then I'm saying, WIN WIN!

 

This team has bigger fish to fry.

 

 

 

Maybe we're saying the same thing. 

 

My real point is to pencil in Coots for about 0.5 to 0.62 ppg. Anything else is gravy, but we shouldn't expect it. 

[Podein25]

18 minutes ago, brelic said:

Maybe we're saying the same thing. 

 

At last.

 

Maybe people can stop telling people to shut up now?

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, icehole said:

Since you brought up cars a few times, think about it this way.  You have 2 cars that you take to the track.  One is a golf R and the other is a audi R8.  The Golf R gets you into the top 10 fastest cars at the track and it never fails to take you home afterward (unless it gets a flat tire and misses 20 games...uhh I mean track days).  The R8 was getting you 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place trophies for a while and you were picking up chicks here and there.  But this past year, something happened and all cylinders weren't firing right in the R8.  It still might get you in the top 7, but some days it breaks down and you can't get home.  Which car are you taking to the track next year?

 

What player are you leaning on to help the team the most next year.  Voracek and Giroux have (or used to have?) the ability to have great games and maybe even take over a game or two by themselves.  Couturier doesn't have that.  He is a complimentary player.  That's why people don't give the other 2 as much guff...the other two have shown they can do it.  

 

If you look at game by game break downs from last season, all 3 have too many 0s in the pts column than I'd like.  But couturier has a lot of 0,0,0,0,1,0,0s.  While Giroux and voracek have more 0,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,3,0,0s.  They can have great games but for some reason didn't have enough last year.  I know I only focus on points but I think it's much easier to work on plus/minus than to improve your offensive production.

 

If you tell me that Giroux and voracek are career 60pt/-20 players, I'd dislike them just as much.  They're not though.  Couturier, however is a 34pt/+6 player in his career with nothing to show that he can do any more.

 

Just so you know, Jake has a career average of 54pts and -1.5 (-13 total) & Giroux averages out at 57.7pts and -.1(-1 total)

Couturier is an average 32pts / +6 (+35 total) and oh by the way, costs half as much.  

 

And Oh yeah, then there's everything else that he's significantly better than either one at.  The team needs all three, but of the three, Couturier is doing his job much better than the other two right now and has been for a couple of years.  I refuse to criticize him for being very good at his job and not simultaneously better than Jake and G at their jobs. 

 

Now as far as your racing metaphor goes... if you have a racing team with both cars and you use the Audi to box out the competition making more room for the Golf R to maneuver and break into a lead, that's what we're looking at here.  Couturier doesn't win the race.  He makes it so Giroux and Jake and Simmer can.  

 

And as such, I don't agree about Couturier's ability to take over a game.  The problem is when he takes over a game, no one notices because he's not going to do it by scoring a hat trick (although he did the last time any of these players or the team as a whole had a whiff of playoff success).  He does it by making the best scorers on the other teams frustrated and less productive and by getting play out of the Flyers end and into the other team's end.  He's very good at this and this is very important toward winning hockey games.   When he does his job the Flyers lose 3-2 instead of 6-2.  When he excels they win 3-2.  

 

Your points about points (sorry) are completely appropriate.  I believe however, especially in the modern NHL, you can't just increase scoring.  Defenses are too good.  Systems are too strong and tough to penetrate.  

 

Instead, you reduce goals against and increase goals for at exactly the same time by exactly the same remedy.  This is why I say that this team's problems aren't individuals underperforming, but a systemic problem that begins with the Defense being utterly unable to contain a play and control the puck in it's own end.  I think when you fix this, not only will there be fewer high quality opportunities against, but you generate a more efficient offense that can create higher percentage chances for.

 

You look at the team last year.  They were the 2nd best scoring team through like the first month.  The problem was they were also one of the most scored upon teams.  You look at Mason and Neuvirth... they both had terrible seasons especially in terms of save percentage.  This wasn't because they both crapped out at the same time, it was because the DEFENSE was giving up extremely high percentage chances to unchecked forwards more or less right in front of the goalies.   Hakstol adjusted and had his forwards come back to help out more.  They shut down goals against, but they utterly killed their goals for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[icehole]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

In fact, by and large, the only way to get him on par with Bergeron & Toews is to increase his PP scoring 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you have mostly valid points, but I don't think couturier can get on par with toews or Bergeron.  Your comparing couturier's numbers with the other two in the 2nd or 3rd worst seasons of their careers.  Toews had 49 even strength points one year.  Bergeron had 42.

 

I won't disagree that the defense hasn't helped, but when has it?  How many Norris trophy winners were Giroux and voracek playing with (Giroux played with 1 I think)?

 

You discount PP scoring.  It plays a major role in most games.  Sometimes it's the difference between winning and losing.  There has to be more 5 on 5 scoring, but the PP is just as important.  To me, even strength points isn't an advantage to someone if they can't score on the PP.  Couturier is +5 over Giroux in even strength points, but -29 for PP points.  He's -7 below voracek even strength and -21 under voracek on the PP.  How are Giroux and voracek the broken pieces here?  Because they make more money because they showed more promise in the past (not so much with voracek)?

[King Knut]

23 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Maybe we're saying the same thing. 

 

My real point is to pencil in Coots for about 0.5 to 0.62 ppg. Anything else is gravy, but we shouldn't expect it. 

 

I'm in total agreement, but if that's all you can appreciate about him, you're missing out on a whole lot of positive stuff and fun hockey.  

 

The caveat I'll add is that if the Flyers can fix the systemic problems that I believe have plagued Giroux and Jake and Simmonds (and Schenn) and they can start scoring more at even strength, then Couturier will score at even strength a bit more as well by circumstance.  It's not a "this is how to get Coots scoring" thing.  It's a "How to get the whole team scoring" thing because the whole team was pretty bad.

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

9 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

At last.

 

Maybe people can stop telling people to shut up now?

 

Absolutely not. If someone continues to beat a dead horse, especially when they're wrong, they deserve the proverbial slap in the face (which didn't work btw) for the sake of all our sanity. Enough time has been wasted on this absolutely ridiculous topic.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, icehole said:

Again, you have mostly valid points, but I don't think couturier can get on par with toews or Bergeron.  Your comparing couturier's numbers with the other two in the 2nd or 3rd worst seasons of their careers.  Toews had 49 even strength points one year.  Bergeron had 42.

 

I won't disagree that the defense hasn't helped, but when has it?  How many Norris trophy winners were Giroux and voracek playing with (Giroux played with 1 I think)?

 

You discount PP scoring.  It plays a major role in most games.  Sometimes it's the difference between winning and losing.  There has to be more 5 on 5 scoring, but the PP is just as important.  To me, even strength points isn't an advantage to someone if they can't score on the PP.  Couturier is +5 over Giroux in even strength points, but -29 for PP points.  He's -7 below voracek even strength and -21 under voracek on the PP.  How are Giroux and voracek the broken pieces here?  Because they make more money because they showed more promise in the past (not so much with voracek)?

 

All valid points.  How many Norris trophy winners has Couturier played with?  

Pronger for half his rookie year?

 

Anyway, I don't discount PP scoring.  That's why I don't think he should be on the 2nd Unit.  What I do believe is that the entire 2nd unit was garbage.  THe Flyers were 14th in PP% but the 2nd unit barely scored at all.  they were essentially 14th on the First unit alone.  

 

If the second unit puts in a few more goals the Flyers might have actually made the playoffs last year.  They wouldn't have been good there, but they might have made it.  That's how close they were in most of their games.

 

However, winning those games and getting into the playoffs and succeeding there are two different things.

To succeed and become a dominant team they need to fix even strength play.  They need to control play at even strength rather than simply withstanding attacks for 50 minutes and hoping to put in a few goals in the 10 mins of PP time they get.   

[vis]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

There is no expanding his role.  He is already the 2nd best scorer on the team at Even Strength and the best overall player production wise at even strength.  He was already on the 2nd PP Unit.  He already played the 2nd most minutes per night for a Center.

 

Here's the long and short of Couturier and his offensive role:

 

If the Defense improves and holds, allowing Hakstol to run his system (the one from the beginning of the year and the one from after the trade deadline) and not pull all his forwards back into their own zone all the time, then Even Strength Scoring will improve  up and down the team.  Giroux will score more, Voracek will score more, Simmonds, Filppula, Konecney, maybe even Read and Raffl and yes, DEFINITELY COUTURIER will score more.  

 

If they put him with line mates and leave them there for a while, they will ALL score more.  

It won't be expanding his role. 

 

Now I've been clear that I don't think it's worth putting him on the 2nd PP unit any longer.  They'll have options.  Last year, they literally had no better options that didn't involve breaking up the first PP Unit which was clicking enough for both units.

 

Additionally, I don't want Coots on the 2nd PP Unit because he's going to be seeing more PK time with PEB and VDV gone (probably a good thing).  

 

Finally, I think it's a good idea that we both prepare ourselves for the fact that in spite of our desires, Coots might see some 2nd Unit time this season.

 

-The entire PP will probably be retooled under Knoblach.  He'll have plenty of ideas.

-There's a possibility that even Patrick he makes the team and even if they put him on the PP Unit, the team might NOT want Patrick to Center that 2nd PP unit.  They may want him in a role similar to what Schenn or Voracek do on the first unit at least for his first season.  

-IF THAT OCCURS, there is literally no one else better to center the 2nd PP Unit than Couturier.  This team isn't hiding a Rod Brind'Amour and not telling us.

   -Filppula is no better at the PP than Couturier and he will most likely be moving back to wing this year anyway.

   -Lehtera is no better than Couturier on the PP and I'm not even sure he makes the opening night roster at this point.

   -if Lehtera isn't the 4th Center, then Laughton will most likely be that guy and he has less experience and zero production on the PP in the pros or minors.  

   -If by some fluke, Vecchione makes the team over Lehtera and Laughton and starts the year centering the 4th line, he will have even less experience on a pro power play than Laughton.

 

As I've said before, I don't think he should be there, but if they don't want to use Patrick as the Center, they'll have little choice.

HOWEVER, the bright side is that if they DO use him on the 2nd PP unit, giving him players like Konecny, Lindblom and Weal to play with will help make that unit more productive than when it was Cousins, and Weise.   There's also an OUTSIDE chance Sanheim makes the team out of camp.  They'd still have to figure out what to do with MacDonald, but it's a definite possiblity.  This will improbe the 2nd unit vastly.  I love Provo, but Sanheim will be better in that role and not playing it would allow Provo to focus on Even Strength and PK duty.

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

 

[icehole]

6 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Just so you know, Jake has a career average of 54pts and -1.5 (-13 total) & Giroux averages out at 57.7pts and -.1(-1 total)

Couturier is an average 32pts / +6 (+35 total) and oh by the way, costs half as much.  

 

And Oh yeah, then there's everything else that he's significantly better than either one at.  The team needs all three, but of the three, Couturier is doing his job much better than the other two right now and has been for a couple of years.  I refuse to criticize him for being very good at his job and not simultaneously better than Jake and G at their jobs. 

 

Now as far as your racing metaphor goes... if you have a racing team with both cars and you use the Audi to box out the competition making more room for the Golf R to maneuver and break into a lead, that's what we're looking at here.  Couturier doesn't win the race.  He makes it so Giroux and Jake and Simmer can.  

 

And as such, I don't agree about Couturier's ability to take over a game.  The problem is when he takes over a game, no one notices because he's not going to do it by scoring a hat trick (although he did the last time any of these players or the team as a whole had a whiff of playoff success).  He does it by making the best scorers on the other teams frustrated and less productive and by getting play out of the Flyers end and into the other team's end.  He's very good at this and this is very important toward winning hockey games.   When he does his job the Flyers lose 3-2 instead of 6-2.  When he excels they win 3-2.  

 

Your points about points (sorry) are completely appropriate.  I believe however, especially in the modern NHL, you can't just increase scoring.  Defenses are too good.  Systems are too strong and tough to penetrate.  

 

Instead, you reduce goals against and increase goals for at exactly the same time by exactly the same remedy.  This is why I say that this team's problems aren't individuals underperforming, but a systemic problem that begins with the Defense being utterly unable to contain a play and control the puck in it's own end.  I think when you fix this, not only will there be fewer high quality opportunities against, but you generate a more efficient offense that can create higher percentage chances for.

 

You look at the team last year.  They were the 2nd best scoring team through like the first month.  The problem was they were also one of the most scored upon teams.  You look at Mason and Neuvirth... they both had terrible seasons especially in terms of save percentage.  This wasn't because they both crapped out at the same time, it was because the DEFENSE was giving up extremely high percentage chances to unchecked forwards more or less right in front of the goalies.   Hakstol adjusted and had his forwards come back to help out more.  They shut down goals against, but they utterly killed their goals for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I doubled couturier's points in the lockout season to make it fair.

 

So your telling me that he is -20 and -23 career points average below voracek and Giroux, and about +6 to 8 +/- over the two?  Advantage voracek and Giroux right?  Is it $4M advantage?  Maybe, maybe not.

 

I always hear about how couturier frustrates the top opposing players but I never see it.  How do we quantify that?  I think it's a trait that I might ignore and you might put too much importance on.  Crosby and Malkin seem to get their points against the flyers.  I'm not sure what the other top players' stats are against the flyers but I feel like they're never invisible out there.  He can take as many defensive zone starts against the best players in the game until the cows come home.  If they still get their points, he must not be too good at his job.

[icehole]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

To succeed and become a dominant team they need to fix even strength play.  They need to control play at even strength rather than simply withstanding attacks for 50 minutes and hoping to put in a few goals in the 10 mins of PP time they get.   

And that's where a nice 3rd line "role" player comes in.  A type of player that doesn't deserve 100s of pages on a forum and certainly not articles written every year about how this is his breakout year.

[Podein25]

26 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

Enough time has been wasted on this absolutely ridiculous topic.

 

Apparently not. 

[brelic]

30 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm in total agreement, but if that's all you can appreciate about him, you're missing out on a whole lot of positive stuff and fun hockey.  

 

The caveat I'll add is that if the Flyers can fix the systemic problems that I believe have plagued Giroux and Jake and Simmonds (and Schenn) and they can start scoring more at even strength, then Couturier will score at even strength a bit more as well by circumstance.  It's not a "this is how to get Coots scoring" thing.  It's a "How to get the whole team scoring" thing because the whole team was pretty bad.

 

 

 

I appreciate what Coots brings to the team the same way I did PEB or a guy like Read. Not flashy, but they have a definite role to play. It is a very positive thing. When they do their job, the team is better for it. 

 

But fun? Lol, not by my definition. If you looked up "boring" in the dictionary, there'd be a picture of Coots. It's not a criticism, it's just that I find him super boring to watch. I usually can't wait for him to get off the ice for more exciting players lol. Again, not a criticism, but I never tune it to watch him. 

 

 

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, icehole said:

I doubled couturier's points in the lockout season to make it fair.

 

So your telling me that he is -20 and -23 career points average below voracek and Giroux, and about +6 to 8 +/- over the two?  Advantage voracek and Giroux right?  Is it $4M advantage?  Maybe, maybe not.

 

I always hear about how couturier frustrates the top opposing players but I never see it.  How do we quantify that?  I think it's a trait that I might ignore and you might put too much importance on.  Crosby and Malkin seem to get their points against the flyers.  I'm not sure what the other top players' stats are against the flyers but I feel like they're never invisible out there.  He can take as many defensive zone starts against the best players in the game until the cows come home.  If they still get their points, he must not be too good at his job.

 

Advantage Jake and G in point totals.  No one disagrees with that.  I was told that if they were career 60pt and Minus players, they'd be just as hated.  They are.  

But the point isn't that Couturier is as good as Jake and G.  He's not.  No one's arguing that.  I'm saying he's quite good and better than he gets credit for.  Better at his particular job and better at even strength than Jake and G have been at theirs.

 

And of course, you're absolutely right.  it's difficult, nearly impossible to quantify how Couturier is good at what he does. 

Malkins and Crosbys do score against the Flyers.  Of course the Flyers have a god awful and unbalanced defensive squad that can't control the puck or clear an outlet, so they could score a ton and Couturier could still be very good at his part of the equation.

 

What I will point to is the simple fact that the Flyers Home record was incredibly good (.714) vs. their away record (.389).  This is a stark difference.  It's not just a little bit better, it's the difference between a damn good team and a damn terrible team.

 

I know we all like to think that was all of us cheering and booing (and wooo!ing?) in the stands that made the difference, but it's far more likely that it was the simple fact that Hakstol got last change meaning he knew when the best players were going to be on the ice and could put Couturier out to take the face-off rather than having to adjust on the fly.  It also means the opposite.  He could put his scorers out against the other team's weaker lines... only statistically, they didn't take advantage over the course of the season, so if anything the numbers would suggest that home ice last change advantage works better for Philly from a defensive standpoint.  I'm sure it was Bellemare and Vandevelde though.

 

I haven't the time to dig very deeply and go over what happened in Pittsburgh vs. Philly, but all but one of Crosby and Malkin's goals against the Flyers last year came in a single game in October... back when the Flyers forwards were still pushing and scoring and not collapsing into their own zone.  Coots did finish a -1 that game with that goal being directly his fault as he got checked while attempting a crappy outlet and the penguins turned it into a goal.  The only other goal Crosby or Malkin scored against the Flyers was in the outdoor game and Couturier was on the ice, he broke his stick defending the passer on the play.

 

Historically, over the past few seasons, Crosby and Malkin tend to score about the same against the Flyers as they do other teams.  Like most of their scoring over the years, it tends to be on the PP.  

 

 

[King Knut]

24 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I appreciate what Coots brings to the team the same way I did PEB or a guy like Read. Not flashy, but they have a definite role to play. It is a very positive thing. When they do their job, the team is better for it. 

 

But fun? Lol, not by my definition. If you looked up "boring" in the dictionary, there'd be a picture of Coots. It's not a criticism, it's just that I find him super boring to watch. I usually can't wait for him to get off the ice for more exciting players lol. Again, not a criticism, but I never tune it to watch him. 

 

 

 

When the team is as ugly to watch as they were last year, you glom onto what bright spots you can find.  

 

That said, I enjoy neutral zone play.  I enjoy watching for positioning and watching players anticipate passing lanes and shut them down.  

 

 

[King Knut]

26 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Apparently not. 

 

Couturier himself stopped being what this thread was bout 2 pages ago. 

[AJgoal]

Couturier's biggest issue is the power play. For whatever reason, his production tanks there. His even strength metrics (goals, points, g/60 and p/60) are all in the top 120 for forwards in the NHL, and that's with the defensive game that he brings. If he could stay healthy (legitimate concern) and then just hit league average powerplay production, he'd be a 40+ point player.

[Podein25]

Just now, King Knut said:

Couturier himself stopped being what this thread was bout 2 pages ago. 

 

LOL, well said.

 

7 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Couturier's biggest issue is the power play. 

 

I don't disagree, but the real issue with him is that he has not evolved/developed as a player. He's not faster than he was 5 years ago, his shot is not better than it was 5 years ago, he's no more creative than he was 5 years ago, etc etc. 

[brelic]

11 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Couturier's biggest issue is the power play. For whatever reason, his production tanks there. His even strength metrics (goals, points, g/60 and p/60) are all in the top 120 for forwards in the NHL, and that's with the defensive game that he brings. If he could stay healthy (legitimate concern) and then just hit league average powerplay production, he'd be a 40+ point player.

 

I think this is the key to everything.

 

Couturier doesn't have any issues. He's exactly what he's supposed to be. All players are. Giroux is Giroux. Jake is Jake. They're human beings doing the best they can with the tools they have - mental, physical, and emotional. 

 

The ones with issues are fans and analysts for expecting players to be something they're not. 

 

Not directed at you, @AJgoal, just everyone in general, myself included!

 

Expectations are just our own projections. 

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

LOL, well said.

 

 

I don't disagree, but the real issue with him is that he has not evolved/developed as a player. He's not faster than he was 5 years ago, his shot is not better than it was 5 years ago, he's no more creative than he was 5 years ago, etc etc. 

 

I don't disagree with any of that... from the offensive side.  The problem is that he was never put in a position to develop those skills as a player, which isn't an excuse, it just says to me that while we can judge him harshly on them, to be fair, we should also judge him on the areas of the game he has been asked to deliver on.  

 

His +/-, his faceoff %, his D-zone starts, his shooting percentage, his goal per game, and his play driving have all shown steady increases (with a few outliers like a +18 his first season).

 

His goals for per 60 is up over the past 3 years, his goals against per 60 is down significantly over the past few years.  

 

I'll leave Corsi and Fenwick out of it, but suffice to say those have all been improving too.

 

The funny part is that if you could have combined Schenn's PP numbers and Couturier's everything else, you'd have the all star everyone dreams of.  

 

 

[AJgoal]

@brelic, fair.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is that I don't move the guy with the 3rd most even strength goals and second most even strength points on the team over the past three years down a line. You want to take him off the power play? OK, that's fair, he's not performed there. But only Simmonds and Raffl have more even strength goals since the start of 2014-2015 (he slips to 4th in goal scoring rate), and only Voracek has more even strength points (same p/60 rank, #2). Remember, 1st line, 2nd line, etc. are at even strength. I'd want my guys who put up the most ES points getting the most ES ice time, wouldn't you?

[fanaticV3.0]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I don't disagree with any of that... from the offensive side.  The problem is that he was never put in a position to develop those skills as a player, which isn't an excuse, it just says to me that while we can judge him harshly on them, to be fair, we should also judge him on the areas of the game he has been asked to deliver on.  

 

His +/-, his faceoff %, his D-zone starts, his shooting percentage, his goal per game, and his play driving have all shown steady increases (with a few outliers like a +18 his first season).

 

His goals for per 60 is up over the past 3 years, his goals against per 60 is down significantly over the past few years.  

 

I'll leave Corsi and Fenwick out of it, but suffice to say those have all been improving too.

 

The funny part is that if you could have combined Schenn's PP numbers and Couturier's everything else, you'd have the all star everyone dreams of.  

 

 

 

That's exactly what excuse is.