King Knut Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said: You pine for that team or "winning" (by winning I mean making the playoffs)? The organization has made it to four Stanley Cups since the world was blessed with my presence. The organization has zero Stanley Cup championships in my lifetime. Personally, I see no reason to value any particular one of those four teams more than the other. all of those runs were fun at the time, but ultimately they all fell short. And if I had to pick one of them to hold a special place in my heart, it sure as sh-t isn't the 09-10 team. You see no reason to value a team that got you to within a game of the cup over a team that can't win 4 playoffs games? Really? and I pine for winning, so I respect and appreciate the team that did so more than I respect and appreciate the team that can't seem to. And I categorize winning as being competitive and playing well in the playoffs... getting past the 2nd round is usually a benchmark. Even in the first round, in my brain there's a difference between losing to the Sabres or the Capitals and losing to the team that goes on and wins the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said: In 05-06 Richards and Carter had just won the Calder cup. It was a foregone conclusion that they would both be up with the big club the next season – and play a big role for many years to come. Umberger had just scored 20 as a rookie. Just because we didn't have the same exact number of prospects then that we do now doesn't mean both seasons were about the future. God, dude was right. you are just a troll with an attitude issue. here you are trying to defend the '07-'08 team as you're attacking them in your previous post. What is it with you? Clearly I made no suggestion that they weren't about the future. Clearly they were. I'm just responding to the idea that someone might have been more excited about them than this new crop. I think we have more reasons to be excited now. That doesn't mean there would have been no reasons to be excited then. This team has no one as proven as Richards and Carter and Umberger were in 2007. They were ready to take over the core of the team. Good thing too because they literally had to. Patrick, Lindblom, Konecny, Weal... these guys aren't in any way proven like Richie, Carts and Umby were... that said, they don't need to be. They're entering a team that already has Giroux, Jake, Voracek, Filppula and Couturier. The kids now don't need to be the core. They can become the core over time as the current core fades away or ages out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: God, dude was right. you are just a troll with an attitude issue. here you are trying to defend the '07-'08 team as you're attacking them in your previous post. What is it with you? Clearly I made no suggestion that they weren't about the future. Clearly they were. I'm just responding to the idea that someone might have been more excited about them than this new crop. I think we have more reasons to be excited now. That doesn't mean there would have been no reasons to be excited then. This team has no one as proven as Richards and Carter and Umberger were in 2007. They were ready to take over the core of the team. Good thing too because they literally had to. Patrick, Lindblom, Konecny, Weal... these guys aren't in any way proven like Richie, Carts and Umby were... that said, they don't need to be. They're entering a team that already has Giroux, Jake, Voracek, Filppula and Couturier. The kids now don't need to be the core. They can become the core over time as the current core fades away or ages out. Um... I never said anything about the 07-08 team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: This is definitely the right route to go, there's just nothing concrete to hold onto yet. Gotcha. I was excited then and am currently. I hear you that the current situation is not "concrete." But, some of those guys in 06/07 carried some baggage when they came over. So, things maybe weren't as concrete then either. And look how that situation turned out... Like you, I am legitimately excited for Patrick and Provorov and also Konecny to an extent. I'm also excited to see what Morin and Sanheim can bring. Not sure about Myers only because I haven't watched him at all. I don't know much about Hart, but he keeps collecting awards and accolades. I'm not sure about Lindblom yet. Want to see more there. I don't have any handle on the other prospects, except maybe Rubtsov. So, yeah, I sort of question some of the excitement about the remaining youth. Not every player drafted is going to make an impact. I will say that the Flyers do a pretty good job at drafting NHL players in the first round, even with later picks. But, it's nice that others (meaning analysts and reputable bloggers) who are more familiar with these kids are excited for the Flyers. That alone is meaningful to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, vis said: Gotcha. I was excited then and am currently. I hear you that the current situation is not "concrete." But, some of those guys in 06/07 carried some baggage when they came over. So, things maybe weren't as concrete then either. And look how that situation turned out... Like you, I am legitimately excited for Patrick and Provorov and also Konecny to an extent. I'm also excited to see what Morin and Sanheim can bring. Not sure about Myers only because I haven't watched him at all. I don't know much about Hart, but he keeps collecting awards and accolades. I'm not sure about Lindblom yet. Want to see more there. I don't have any handle on the other prospects, except maybe Rubtsov. So, yeah, I sort of question some of the excitement about the remaining youth. Not every player drafted is going to make an impact. I will say that the Flyers do a pretty good job at drafting NHL players in the first round, even with later picks. But, it's nice that others (meaning analysts and reputable bloggers) who are more familiar with these kids are excited for the Flyers. That alone is meaningful to me. Richards and Carter had baggage going into the rookie years? I didn't know that. I remember thinking that we were loaded down the center going into that season. Forsberg played only half of it and while Richards and Carter didn't have awful rookie years, they didn't dominate or anything. I thought it was going to be the first step in a new era. I like Konecny, but I can't say we won't end up disliking him three years from now. I remember Matt Read had a great rookie year and we all thought we found a nice player and we all know how that turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Richards and Carter had baggage going into the rookie years? I didn't know that. I was referencing Upshall and then Lupul and Hartnell. Got my years off. Now that I have my years straight (seems to be a problem for me), I don't recall being all that excited heading into 06/07. That was the offseason the likes of Calder, Robitaille and Murray came on board. Then I think they got Mike York. It was coming out of that season and then especially into 07/08 where there was excitement for "the youth." 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: I like Konecny, but I can't say we won't end up disliking him three years from now. I remember Matt Read had a great rookie year and we all thought we found a nice player and we all know how that turned out. Big difference between the two. Read was an undrafted college kid. Konecny is a first rounder (and maybe could have gone higher). My concern with Konecny is whether he can learn he can't do in the NHL what he was able to do in juniors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 8 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said: And if I had to pick one of them to hold a special place in my heart, it sure as sh-t isn't the 09-10 team. Yeah, i don't remember that season fondly. I've said why elsewhere so I won't rehash. I actually liked the 2004 team that lost to Tampa a hell of a lot more (and i still occasionally watch the Ottawa/Philly brawl game). I think my favorite non-Cup team was 87. That may have been the most skilled team we ever had. But the Cup teams got me to a parade, so... And that's really what it's about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 7 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said: I like Konecny, but I can't say we won't end up disliking him three years from now Lol. Are you new here? Of course we won't like him in three years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 7 hours ago, vis said: My concern with Konecny is whether he can learn he can't do in the NHL what he was able to do in juniors. So far, that's included actually playing his natural position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philaphansrefugee Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 G is on a version of the Flyers that woefully lacks talent. Lindros also was on a version that woefully lacked talent. G is no E. But at least E had a 50 goal-scorer on his wing. G is no E, and G has nobody to help him at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 On 7/21/2017 at 1:42 PM, vis said: I was referencing Upshall and then Lupul and Hartnell. Got my years off. Now that I have my years straight (seems to be a problem for me), I don't recall being all that excited heading into 06/07. That was the offseason the likes of Calder, Robitaille and Murray came on board. Then I think they got Mike York. It was coming out of that season and then especially into 07/08 where there was excitement for "the youth." Big difference between the two. Read was an undrafted college kid. Konecny is a first rounder (and maybe could have gone higher). My concern with Konecny is whether he can learn he can't do in the NHL what he was able to do in juniors. Christ, we are all getting old. They definitely had more youth going into 07-08, but I remember having this belief that having Forsberg, Carter, and Richards down the middle was perfect.They didn't even have to shove the kids into the top line, because we had Forsberg. I don't think it matters how you found your way into the league, if you're good enough you're gonna stick around. Stills baffles me about Read. Dude pretty much secured himself a spot with his first three seasons, but then he just kinda came to a screeching halt. I mean, three years for Christ's sake. That should be a safe amount of time to say that a guy has made it. But f-ck me did he just fall flat. Konecny is going to have to do a lot for me to feel comfortable about him and do it for several years. I want him to make it, but I'm just not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 49 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Stills baffles me about Read. Dude pretty much secured himself a spot with his first three seasons, but then he just kinda came to a screeching halt. I mean, three years for Christ's sake. 2 Read came out of college as an old college aged player. He was 24/25 in his rookie season. He was the classic late bloomer. Koneckny was 19 last year. He is an on schedule bloomer ? He may have another growth spurt, but barring injury will have more time to develop at the NHL level. With luck he'll have 4 NHL seasons under his belt by the time he's the age Read was when he entered the league. Hopefully Travis will hit a gear Read never had because IMO he's a superior talent compared with Matt. All that to say I don't find the two players directly comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 7 hours ago, philaphansrefugee said: G is on a version of the Flyers that woefully lacks talent. Lindros also was on a version that woefully lacked talent. G is no E. But at least E had a 50 goal-scorer on his wing. G is no E, and G has nobody to help him at all. I'd suggest Eric had a ton of talent to back him up. Even from the start. It got better from there. He entered a team (that despite trading half of itself and it's best two way young player and it's goalie to get him) still had the likes of Mark Recchi (scores 120+ points in '92-'93) Rod, Kevin Dineen (past his prime, but still 60+ point scorer). The Flyers then did a pretty excellent job of filling in the talent around him. LeClair was a cup winner and a checker with a helluva shot, but was The thing they most have in common is neither had a wink of a defense at first. Lindros' team didn't get competitive until the brought in Rico Dykhuis and Therien to bolster Galley and Yusckevich. That was certainly nothing compared to the pairings the Devils and Redwings of the era were throwing out there, but compared to what Giroux has on his blue line, it's a gosh darn all star team. Giroux on the other hand had a TON of talent around him when he entered the league and it was all stripped away from him pretty precipitously as the reigns of the team were handed to him. Still, the talent he has isn't terrible. Now it's actually kind of exciting with possibilities. Regardless, IMHO It's the defense that's really been the flaw with these Flyers these past 4 years. I think it started with Berube who actually had much more talent on Defense than Hakstol has, but who for some reason utilized his D in an atrociously out of tune manner. The past two seasons, Hakstol really has had an unbalanced, inappropriately assembled squad. No matter the cause, Giroux and his offense have spent the majority of the past 4 seasons from inside their own blue line... which in today's NHL means ZERO penetration and 100% poor shot options usually leading to dump and chase cycling puck battles and 1995 style shots from the point hoping for a tip in or a rebound. I don't think it's a mystery why the last time this team broke into the 2nd round happened under Laviolette, who coaches a completely different approach. What I can't quite figure out just yet is how much of Hakstol's sputtering offense is due to the terrible talent on D to this point. When you look at the way this team rolled in the early goings of last year, you really see a squad of forwards build for speedy seam finding transitions that score quickly and on the rush (not unlike the Stevens team of '07-'08 or the Laviolette team of '10-'12. Transition based, neutral zone dominant hockey. It's apparent to me last season that Hakstol abandoned this game plan because the defense and the goaltending were quite simply so horrid that they could not be relied upon not to be scored on 6 times a night without help... so he pulled them all back and started benching guys who didn't do what he wanted. Things slowed. Things got boring. AND IT WORKED LIKE GANGBUSTERS through the win streak at which point (if we recall) they had a fantastic record, but night to night were winning by just the skin of their teeth (as Hextall would point out later). Then the wheels fell of the wagon when they stopped getting those bounces they were getting during the streak and the reality of their situation settled in. They'd basically won half the games they would win all year before Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 On 7/21/2017 at 8:19 PM, ruxpin said: So far, that's included actually playing his natural position Playing his natural position and having the same line mates for more than a few shifts at a time might be helpful as well. Hakstol wants everyone to be able to do everything... and that concerns me because some players are better skaters than others. Some are better shooters than others... some have better eyes for passing than others. The players themselves know this, but Hakstol doesn't seem to build it into his systems yet. It's odd. Every time that Ghost finds Giroux open in his spot by the left circle on a PP, it's like they're saying, "hey... this is what we do! RED FLAG!!!" but nothing about the passing that set up the situation seemed to be designed to fool anyone or open up any other lanes to make that seam a clean pass. Giroux's always sideways trying to make the shot because the past got tipped or Ghost had to send it wide to get around a defender who was onto him too quickly. The same with transitions... the skaters are behind the play somehow and the guys set up to finish have NO HANDS to actually take a shot. When the guys who can shoot get open, they have two men on them and have to make a pass to someone who can't. What I can't tell is if this is the way Hakstol thinks he wants to do things or if it's just the way he has to in order to keep the score being 9-5 every night because the Defense is so horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 hours ago, King Knut said: Playing his natural position and having the same line mates for more than a few shifts at a time might be helpful as well. Hakstol wants everyone to be able to do everything... and that concerns me because some players are better skaters than others. Some are better shooters than others... some have better eyes for passing than others. The players themselves know this, but Hakstol doesn't seem to build it into his systems yet. It's odd. Every time that Ghost finds Giroux open in his spot by the left circle on a PP, it's like they're saying, "hey... this is what we do! RED FLAG!!!" but nothing about the passing that set up the situation seemed to be designed to fool anyone or open up any other lanes to make that seam a clean pass. Giroux's always sideways trying to make the shot because the past got tipped or Ghost had to send it wide to get around a defender who was onto him too quickly. The same with transitions... the skaters are behind the play somehow and the guys set up to finish have NO HANDS to actually take a shot. When the guys who can shoot get open, they have two men on them and have to make a pass to someone who can't. What I can't tell is if this is the way Hakstol thinks he wants to do things or if it's just the way he has to in order to keep the score being 9-5 every night because the Defense is so horrible. That's all completely accurate. Like you, I'm not sure if it's his choice (it has to be, right?) or if it's because he feels he has to. I used to wonder if it was by design or if the players didn't understand what they were supposed to do. But it's so uniform I've come to the conclusion that it has to be by design. Now I just don't know whether it's by choice. The opening line about Konecny is dead on. And the thing about the "generalist" approach with everyone is befuddling. I don't know, I guess time will tell. I'm not hankering to get rid of Hakstol or anything (and you're not coming across that way either), but let's just say I have my concerns. I guess as we get better skill we'll see where we are with the coach. We changed goalies at the end of this season, though, so that makes next year coach, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 19 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Read came out of college as an old college aged player. He was 24/25 in his rookie season. He was the classic late bloomer. Koneckny was 19 last year. He is an on schedule bloomer ? He may have another growth spurt, but barring injury will have more time to develop at the NHL level. With luck he'll have 4 NHL seasons under his belt by the time he's the age Read was when he entered the league. Hopefully Travis will hit a gear Read never had because IMO he's a superior talent compared with Matt. All that to say I don't find the two players directly comparable. I'm not comparing them, I'm saying that I hope that – like Read – Konency doesn't give us three solid years and then just fall flat every season after that. Read had it in the bag and then simply regressed. I wouldn't even call him a late bloomer, those first few seasons seem like a fluke. I'm saying that I don't trust and have a hard time getting excited about young players because even a schmo like Read can make you think that he is more than he is (and for several seasons no less). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 20 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Koneckny was 19 last year. He is an on schedule bloomer ? He may have another growth spurt, but barring injury will have more time to develop at the NHL level. I was actually very impressed with the small sample we got from TK last year. I think he has all the makings of a stud NHL performer. He just needs time and guidance at this point. He seems like some combination of Gaudreau-like hands and Forsberg-like grit. That's pretty appealing to me really. Sure, I wish he were bigger, but he plays a lot bigger than he actually is. And what he doesn't have in size, he makes up for in skill and speed -- the two primary traits of this NHL era imo. The beauty of the Flyers roster this year is in a fairly even trio of lines. Regardless of where he slots into the top 9, he is likely to see a good amount of ice time this year. Hopefully that translates into another step forward. My wishlist for him this year would be to see him moved to the right instead of the left. I'd also like to see him get a shot on the half wall for the 2nd pp. He filled in for Giroux on the first a few times early last season, and I thought it suited him well. Along with Patrick, TK is the player I'm most interested in watching this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 22 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Konecny is going to have to do a lot for me to feel comfortable about him and do it for several years. I want him to make it, but I'm just not sure. I have a feeling Konecny is going to be like Justin Williams. I just hope he figures out how to play a well-rounded, NHL-suitable game while he is still a Flyer. I really do like the kid. Tried to watch him in junior when hockeystreams.com was around and then later on some of the Kodi add-ins. He's got the talent and a great motor. Just needs to mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 15 hours ago, ruxpin said: That's all completely accurate. Like you, I'm not sure if it's his choice (it has to be, right?) or if it's because he feels he has to. I used to wonder if it was by design or if the players didn't understand what they were supposed to do. But it's so uniform I've come to the conclusion that it has to be by design. Now I just don't know whether it's by choice. The opening line about Konecny is dead on. And the thing about the "generalist" approach with everyone is befuddling. I don't know, I guess time will tell. I'm not hankering to get rid of Hakstol or anything (and you're not coming across that way either), but let's just say I have my concerns. I guess as we get better skill we'll see where we are with the coach. We changed goalies at the end of this season, though, so that makes next year coach, right? Yeah, I don't espouse getting rid of him. I didn't mean that to come across as where I was going. I think though that it has to be about time for him to work his system to the best of the team's ability now and stop waiting for the personnel to change. Streit and MDZ and PEB and VDV are gone. If the defense and goalies aren't holding their own at the start of the season, I just think there has to be a different solution than screwing over the forwards again. At this point it would be hurting them and their progress while simultaneously not forcing the burgeoning defense to get their act in order. No more forward bail outs I guess is what I'm saying. Hakstol should run his system and he and his staff should figure out how to damn well coach the defense into playing it better. I'd rather another mediocre missed playoffs where actual progress is made in the system. Last year, there would have been little point. Streit, MDZ, Schultz, Mac, even Manning... none of these guys are really part of this team's D future. This year however, for the sake of Provo, Ghost, Gudas and whichever of the kids start to crack the lineup, it's time or them to learn to play the game the winning way instead of knowing their forwards will be there to back up them if they can't control the puck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 5 hours ago, King Knut said: Yeah, I don't espouse getting rid of him. I didn't mean that to come across as where I was going Oh no, you didn't. I'm just kvetching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 10:23 AM, vis said: I have a feeling Konecny is going to be like Justin Williams. I just hope he figures out how to play a well-rounded, NHL-suitable game while he is still a Flyer. I really do like the kid. Tried to watch him in junior when hockeystreams.com was around and then later on some of the Kodi add-ins. He's got the talent and a great motor. Just needs to mature. Oh. Well, I would be very okay with that. LOL, that is such a hockey phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 10:23 AM, vis said: I have a feeling Konecny is going to be like Justin Williams. awesome, it will be great to watch him win 3 cups after he is traded.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 6 hours ago, murraycraven said: awesome, it will be great to watch him win 3 cups after he is traded.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 17 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: good thing I am not epileptic!! I will have to keep this away from Mrs Craven so she doesn't go into a seizure.... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 On 7/31/2017 at 9:26 AM, fanaticV3.0 said: LOL, that is such a hockey phrase. lol, but it's true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.