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hf101

Roenick has some words for Giroux

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5 minutes ago, vis said:

He's paid like a top 10 player

 

Sure but everyone needs to earn their paycheck to get to where they want to be.

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5 minutes ago, vis said:

 I pointed out that I think he needs to be quicker and being healthy alone isn't enough.  Where is the problem with that?

 

 

There is none. I'm just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt he was hurt or not 100%. Just like Ghost.

 

So no excuses. This year they need to bring it from the opening whistle. No more starting slow.

 

I think they will be motivated and play well. Paint me the optimistic fan if you may. Nothing wrong with that.

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On 7/15/2017 at 0:41 PM, OccamsRazor said:

Yes stop worrying about the outside world you're always going to have critic till you walk away from the game and they still are going to bitch about how you walk away...

 

...it's no different than all the critics bitching about Hexy taking Frost at #27....you think Ron gives a F**K he has a job to do and he is listening to his corner and going by his plan??

 

Because at the end of the day he is going to do it his way regardless who likes it or approves it. Clod take notes!

 

 

Clod needs to stop listening to others besides his coaches/gm and teammates.

 

STAY THE F**K OFF SOCIAL MEDIA FOR ONE!

 

HANDLE YOUR BUSINESS!!!

 

What is this ridiculousness? Social media, listening to others, etc.? You blame just about everybody but Giroux himself for his declining play. Maybe he gets a pass for part of last year, but you act like he's been tearing it up and only just fell off last year. Fact is, his production has dropped four years in a row and there are many times he simply looks disinterested.

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@OccamsRazor

 

Don't have a problem at all with you being optimistic.

 

Just wasn't understanding what I perceived to be a reluctance to the point about him needing to be better in general and quicker specifically.  I realize my timeline was off and understand that threw some of the discussion into disarray.  Seems like we are in agreement on that.

 

And, yes, it's a team effort.  But the team goes as The Captain goes.  If he is not better that he was last year by a wide margin, this team will go nowhere fast.  He is supposed to be their best player and is paid like an elite center.  He needs to perform like one.  

 

Like you, I hope he can.

 

 

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1 hour ago, vis said:

 But the team goes as The Captain goes.

 

I get that but the Kings won a 2nd Cup and their Captain (Dustin Brown) scored 15 goals for a whopping 27 points that year. The year they won their 1st Cup he only put up 22 goals for 54 points.

 

In 2014-15 Toews only scored 28 goals for 66 points.

 

So it doesn't all have to be on the Captain. What is key on those Cups is the burden was carried by many not just one guy.

 

From the net out everyone has to be on their game.

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1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

What is this ridiculousness? Social media, listening to others, etc.? You blame just about everybody but Giroux himself for his declining play. Maybe he gets a pass for part of last year, but you act like he's been tearing it up and only just fell off last year. Fact is, his production has dropped four years in a row and there are many times he simply looks disinterested.

 

No wrong again.

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3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I get that but the Kings won a 2nd Cup and their Captain (Dustin Brown) scored 15 goals for a whopping 27 points that year. The year they won their 1st Cup he only put up 22 goals for 54 points.

 

In 2014-15 Toews only scored 28 goals for 66 points.

 

So it doesn't all have to be on the Captain. What is key on those Cups is the burden was carried by many not just one guy.

 

From the net out everyone has to be on their game.

You're comparing a loaded LA team and loaded Chicago team to the Flyers?

 

This team's fortunes (at least offensively) will rise and fall due in large part with how well he plays.  He cannot have another year like the last two at 5v5 if they are going to improve (at least offensively).   Teams like Chicago and LA were able to survive "down years" from their respective captains.  This team is not able to that, even if everyone is playing to their capability.  It simply does not have enough skill and ability.  

 

No one is saying the rest of the team gets a pass.  But the reality is that the team needs Giroux to produce and be its best player, as he's paid to be, for them to have success offensively.  Not sure that's a controversial concept.

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16 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

No wrong again.

 

All I see from you is excuses. Vis is too nice to say it, but I'm not. You're doing it with Giroux and you're doing it with Couturier too. It's actually laughable for Couturier. I can see giving Giroux a little bit of slack because maybe he was an honor percent, but Couturier? Just shows how little you know about the game.

Edited by fanaticV3.0

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49 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

but I'm not.

 

 

Oh we know.

 

Think what want i really don't care.

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Oh we know.

 

Think what you want i really don't care.

 

Not sure when I've agreed with you more.

 

 

2 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 Just shows how little you know about the game.

 

Not sure when I've read a more ironic statement.  

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1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Not sure when I've agreed with you more.

 

 

 

Not sure when I've read a more ironic statement.  

 

I don't think he has any friends so he doesn't know how to properly converse with other humans to well.

 

Gets mad when you diagree and then the insults come flying out.

 

He wouldn't talk like that to your face.

 

Keyboard tough guy.

 

Trolls will be trolls no other way around it.

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't think he has any friends so he doesn't know how to properly converse with other humans to well.

 

Gets mad when you diagree and then the insults come flying out.

 

He wouldn't talk like that to your face.

 

Keyboard tough guy.

 

Trolls will be trolls no other way around it.

 

Feeling bad can be addictive.  Some folks just go out of their way to continue feeling that way.  

 

 

 

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Not to be accused of enjoying feeling bad, but am I understanding correctly that the argument is actually being propagated that the Flyers will do fine even if Giroux doesn't play any better than he has the last two years? 

 

*IF* that's the case, that's simply astounding. 

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10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Not to be accused of enjoying feeling bad, but am I understanding correctly that the argument is actually being propagated that the Flyers will do fine even if Giroux doesn't play any better than he has the last two years? 

 

*IF* that's the case, that's simply astounding. 

You watch your mouth, he'll take away your fan card too!

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20 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

You watch your mouth, he'll take away your fan card too!

 

LOL

 

Well, this convo has gone back and forth and I'm not trying to assume anyone's position or put words in mouths.   But my takeaway was that Giroux has not been declining and does not need to step it up because the rest of the team....

 

If the argument is that Giroux's game was hampered by the team not playing well (and by injury) and that if the team picks up you'll see improvement by Giroux, then I do buy that to an extent.   Giroux and Jake could both benefit by a second line that does take some of the opposition's focus away from them.   And one would think a healthy Giroux will play better than the injured one.

 

But if the argument is that he's fine and the team can succeed without improvement from him, I can't agree with that.

 

I know it's the Richards' argument all over again, but Giroux does come up as invisible and disinterested at times.  And I do think that's affected his game.   But I think what looks like invisible and disinterested is probably because often his style of game is ineffectual given the team around him.   This is not meant to excuse him.  He's captain and is supposed to be an above average player (if not elite) and is paid as such.   But he's a player, like many if not most, that needs some space.  Especially given his size.   If he has no one taking attention and creating some space for him, I don't think he's going to be as effective.  Given the fact he's human, that's got to become frustrating over time.   This is why his best years had Jagr and/or Hartnell on a line with him because they managed to take some attention from the opposition and Giroux was a little more able to get open.  Not just for the shot, but it created some time for him to find some passing seams and create plays.   When Ghost first came up and was on fire, it had a similar effect.

 

So, Giroux has to be better than he's been.   I'm willing to allow for an argument of team circumstance for some of it--I wouldn't venture to put a percentage on it.  The rest, Giroux just needs to find a way.

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I don't believe Giroux will be the one leading this team to a Cup if/when the Flyers are ready to make a run. That player will hopefully be Nolan. With that being said, if Giroux is still on this team by that time, he will most likely slot into the 2nd line centerman spot, or even on the wing. The only problem is he's getting paid to be a #1 center and that could cause some problems going forward.

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@ruxpin

 

Good post, rux.  My takeaway ended up being that all, including Giroux, need to perform to the best of their abilities and that Giroux being healthy will, alone, be sufficient to result in a marked improvement in his game.   Agree on the former (not really sure why that became a topic in a discussion about how Giroux can improve), but disagree on the latter.  And although I agree on the former, the team's success will be heavily dependent on his performance.  If he has another "down year" the team in general will struggle, at least offensively.  I don't think the roster is talented enough to overcome that.

 

Giroux and Voracek are going to continue to see the top defensive forwards and pairings.  I don't see the second line drawing that attention from Giroux and Voracek.  So, they have to find a way to be better and improve because I don't think the opposition gets easier for them.  For me, Giroux's speed and quickness is an issue (and he wasn't a speedster to begin with).  Yes, I'm sure he was hampered by an injury last year.  But he will turn 30 this year.  Even absent an injury, he's lost a step or two just due to age.  So, imo, he has to work to regain some of speed and quickness to give himself more room and space to make plays.  Or, maybe he has to adjust his game somewhat.  Not really sure.  And I am not sure it's significantly related to linemates.  Playing with Voracek should afford him some space.  Now, maybe he and Voracek no longer work well together (don't disagree with that notion; I think they're somewhat the same type of player).  

 

I would be curious to see how he works with Simmonds and a speedy shooter on his left side.  Maybe Weal, Konecny or Lindblom.  However, I think Konecny on the LW creates a logjam at that position (another topic for sure).  And I'm not sure Lindblom fits the "speedy" aspect of that theory.  Maybe Weal-Giroux-Simmonds could work.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

LOL

 

Well, this convo has gone back and forth and I'm not trying to assume anyone's position or put words in mouths.   But my takeaway was that Giroux has not been declining and does not need to step it up because the rest of the team....

 

If the argument is that Giroux's game was hampered by the team not playing well (and by injury) and that if the team picks up you'll see improvement by Giroux, then I do buy that to an extent.   Giroux and Jake could both benefit by a second line that does take some of the opposition's focus away from them.   And one would think a healthy Giroux will play better than the injured one.

 

But if the argument is that he's fine and the team can succeed without improvement from him, I can't agree with that.

 

I know it's the Richards' argument all over again, but Giroux does come up as invisible and disinterested at times.  And I do think that's affected his game.   But I think what looks like invisible and disinterested is probably because often his style of game is ineffectual given the team around him.   This is not meant to excuse him.  He's captain and is supposed to be an above average player (if not elite) and is paid as such.   But he's a player, like many if not most, that needs some space.  Especially given his size.   If he has no one taking attention and creating some space for him, I don't think he's going to be as effective.  Given the fact he's human, that's got to become frustrating over time.   This is why his best years had Jagr and/or Hartnell on a line with him because they managed to take some attention from the opposition and Giroux was a little more able to get open.  Not just for the shot, but it created some time for him to find some passing seams and create plays.   When Ghost first came up and was on fire, it had a similar effect.

 

So, Giroux has to be better than he's been.   I'm willing to allow for an argument of team circumstance for some of it--I wouldn't venture to put a percentage on it.  The rest, Giroux just needs to find a way.

 

I'm not either, but I certainly don't have any problem someone's words against them. Too many excuses for Giroux from him.

 

As far as my opinion on Giroux, I'm with you ( if that wasn't already clear in my previous posts). There are a couple of things ( injuries and overall team suckage) that are fair to say contributed to his problems, but he stats having dropped for four years in a row because of them.

 

In the deepest darkest depths of my black heart, I am hoping that Patrick and maybe even Provorov can be those players that he needs – and I do think he needs them  – to take the pressure and attention off of him.

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Roenick is full of ...., because Giroux wasn't ready for the season for the last 5 years, in my memory. Although, he is getting better over the season,but for first 15 games, the team losses very important points , that would make difference at the end. Giroux can't be number one in the team , he is not just that guy. He is like Kessel, good but just not a leader. Everyone remember that one playoff game where Giroux leveled Sid to the boards. But it was one series one time and that's all. Give me more examples?!

Oh I know you will tell me during their march to finals, but remember it was different team, actually Mike Richards was a captain, than we had Carter, a very explosive player and with hard shot.

So Giroux is fine when he has another number one, well a real number one, like Jagr was played with him. But Jagr is all time number one, but Giroux is just good player. Sorry, as I said many times, just trade him for prospect, may be a good goalie.

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33 minutes ago, vis said:

@ruxpin

 

Good post, rux.  My takeaway ended up being that all, including Giroux, need to perform to the best of their abilities and that Giroux being healthy will, alone, be sufficient to result in a marked improvement in his game.   Agree on the former (not really sure why that became a topic in a discussion about how Giroux can improve), but disagree on the latter.  And although I agree on the former, the team's success will be heavily dependent on his performance.  If he has another "down year" the team in general will struggle, at least offensively.  I don't think the roster is talented enough to overcome that.

 

Giroux and Voracek are going to continue to see the top defensive forwards and pairings.  I don't see the second line drawing that attention from Giroux and Voracek.  So, they have to find a way to be better and improve because I don't think the opposition gets easier for them.  For me, Giroux's speed and quickness is an issue (and he wasn't a speedster to begin with).  Yes, I'm sure he was hampered by an injury last year.  But he will turn 30 this year.  Even absent an injury, he's lost a step or two just due to age.  So, imo, he has to work to regain some of speed and quickness to give himself more room and space to make plays.  Or, maybe he has to adjust his game somewhat.  Not really sure.  And I am not sure it's significantly related to linemates.  Playing with Voracek should afford him some space.  Now, maybe he and Voracek no longer work well together (don't disagree with that notion; I think they're somewhat the same type of player).  

 

I would be curious to see how he works with Simmonds and a speedy shooter on his left side.  Maybe Weal, Konecny or Lindblom.  However, I think Konecny on the LW creates a logjam at that position (another topic for sure).  And I'm not sure Lindblom fits the "speedy" aspect of that theory.  Maybe Weal-Giroux-Simmonds could work.

 

 

 

 

All this talk of youngsters makes me think of 06-07. Remember how we thought all these unproven kids are going to change the direction of the franchise?

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10 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

All this talk of youngsters makes me think of 06-07. Remember how we thought all these unproven kids are going to change the direction of the franchise?

 

Those youngsters did become the core for a pretty nice run for a few years. 

I know Timonen, Briere & Hartnell....weren't part of that group of homegrown/young players.

The group that was supposed to change the direction of the franchise did go to an ECF a SCF, posted multiple 90+ point seasons, including the 10/11 season which was arguably that group's best.   Then Homlgren traded them.  

I remember there were high hopes and by-and-large the Carter, Richards, Lupul, Upshall, Umberger group delivered. 

Just because guys are young doesn't mean they can't play well, the league is trending younger. Time to for the prospects to turn potential into performance.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

Those youngsters did become the core for a pretty nice run for a few years. 

I know Timonen, Briere & Hartnell....weren't part of that group of homegrown/young players.

The group that was supposed to change the direction of the franchise did go to an ECF a SCF, posted multiple 90+ point seasons, including the 10/11 season which was arguably that group's best.   Then Homlgren traded them.  

I remember there were high hopes and by-and-large the Carter, Richards, Lupul, Upshall, Umberger group delivered. 

Just because guys are young doesn't mean they can't play well, the league is trending younger. Time to for the prospects to turn potential into performance.

 

 

 

This was different from previous years how?

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13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Not to be accused of enjoying feeling bad, but am I understanding correctly that the argument is actually being propagated that the Flyers will do fine even if Giroux doesn't play any better than he has the last two years? 

 

*IF* that's the case, that's simply astounding. 

 

I don't know who's making that argument.

 

My personal POV is that Giroux will probably be better on his own simply because he looked like two different players in October and in April.

 

The second part of my POV is that if the systems can be cleaned up by improving the balance on defense and all 3 forwards don't need to collapse into their own zone in order to regain puck control all the time, then every forward, including Giroux, will have a better season regardless of his own personal development.

 

It could be both, which would be great and is the goal, or it could be one and not the other which would still be good, and if so I'd hope for the latter over the former becasue then at least the whole team is getting better.

 

Of course it's feasible neither thing happens this year which would be a whole lotta suck and probably mean the migration of Hakstol to the front office of NCAA scout or something.  

 

In my book though if Giroux gets back to his old self and none of the other stuff gets better, the team will still suck.  It'll just suck with a 90 pt. Giroux on it again.  Whoop de doo.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

This was different from previous years how?

you need a history of the team all of the sudden ?

Prior to the lockout, the Flyers were a team made of of free agent signings and trade acquisitions.

quit acting like an obtuse knucklehead, no one appreciates it. 

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  • Most Liked Posts in This Topic

    • 6
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      I usually stop reading at "Jeremy Roenick" but that there is some good advice.
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      B21 is right too...I usually stop at Jeremy Roenick.
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      You're comparing a loaded LA team and loaded Chicago team to the Flyers?   This team's fortunes (at least offensively) will rise and fall due in large part with how well he plays.  He cannot have another year like the last two at 5v5 if they are going to improve (at least offensively).   Teams like Chicago and LA were able to survive "down years" from their respective captains.  This team is not able to that, even if everyone is playing to their capability.  It simply does not have eno
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      Not to be accused of enjoying feeling bad, but am I understanding correctly that the argument is actually being propagated that the Flyers will do fine even if Giroux doesn't play any better than he has the last two years?    *IF* that's the case, that's simply astounding. 

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