Roenick has some words for Giroux

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

no one appreciates it

 

I don't know.  There's 63 million people who apparently like a knucklehead.

[OccamsRazor]

27 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I don't know who's making that argument.

 

 

I agree. Don't see that anywhere.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I agree. Don't see that anywhere.

 

Okay, so only we have to read your posts.

 

That was my interpretation of your posts.   If you care to enunciate your point more clearly, feel free.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

If you care to enunciate your point more clearly, feel free.

 

No.

 

Re read if you like i have made my point.

 

Take from it what you will.

 

I'm done.

 

This has just gotten comical.

 

However at least we've given Brayden Schenn a break....oh damn now i have done it now....

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't know.  There's 63 million people who apparently like a knucklehead.

 

 

In Pro Wrestling, it's known as a Heel.

I understand it can be very popular.

[King Knut]

33 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

you need a history of the team all of the sudden ?

Prior to the lockout, the Flyers were a team made of of free agent signings and trade acquisitions.

quit acting like an obtuse knucklehead, no one appreciates it. 

 

Each time it looked like they may have grown a new core from within, many of those players would be traded for "The Missing Pieces"  

 

If this was days gone by, Hextall would have traded Ghost and Konecny by now because they couldn't figure out how to score while achieving Hitchcock's (ahem) I mean Hakstol's commitment to D.  

 

Since 2002 the Flyers traded Rusty for Pitkanen, Williams for Markov, then Pitkanen for Friggin' Sanderson, Sharp for Ellison, Upshall for friggin' Carcillo, Sbisa and Lupul for Pronger.

 

Those weren't all home grown players, but they were all young and just burgeoning into their own when they got traded and while none of them were game changers, together they would have been a hell of a core.  The beauty of it is Homer could still have made the good moves he did.  

 

Gagne  Carter  Hartnell

Kapanen Briere  Knuble

Williams Richards Sharp

Lupul  Umberger  Upshall

 

Timmonen  Coburn

Pitkanen Hatcher 

Jones  Vandermeer

 

Sure, they still have to replace Hatcher and his bum knees the next season, and they can still do that with Smith if they want and they could have developed Sbisa as he should have been instead of ruining him the way that poor kid got ruined. 

 

Worst case scenario '06-'07 isn't the worst season in team history and they don't get to waste the #2 overall pick on JVR, then trade him away for squat.  Big Whoop!  Maybe they get stuck with getting Voracek back then, or maybe they end up with Logan Couture, Kevin Shattenkirk, Ryan McDonagh  or god help us Kyle friggin' Turris (who all fell below JVR).  

 

Goalie was still a problem, but the above team minus Williams, Sharp, and Rusty (who were all off winning cups with other teams by this point) got the the ECFs with Marty Biron in net.  

 

Homer made several good moves in my opinion and Razor was one of them.  Bringing in Bob was another.  Why he then decided to pull a 180, trade what was left of the above core, sign Bryzgalov and later trade Bob, shooting his team in the face I'll never know.

 

What were we talking about again?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

you need a history of the team all of the sudden ?

Prior to the lockout, the Flyers were a team made of of free agent signings and trade acquisitions.

quit acting like an obtuse knucklehead, no one appreciates it. 

 

Come on tough guy, own your argument. You are awfully cocky for a guy running away from a conversation he chose to insert himself into.

 

What did your beloved Richards and Carter helmed teams do that the teams  made up of free-agent signings and trade acquisitions didn't?

[mojo1917]

tough guy? where do I say I'm tough? 

I called you on your poor behavior, which I find inconsistent with my interactions with you in other threads.

 

but, if you insist:

Stanley Cup final.

106 point season.

you have to go back to the Lindros teams to find those results.The Lindros teams were half built, half acquired.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

tough guy? where do I say I'm tough? 

 

Yeah, I mean, you're usually such a puss.

 

(I'm kidding.  Call off the hit)

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Come on tough guy, own your argument. You are awfully cocky for a guy running away from a conversation he chose to insert himself into.

 

What did your beloved Richards and Carter helmed teams do that the teams  made up of free-agent signings and trade acquisitions didn't?

 

They went from the worst team in the league to the eastern conference finals in a year.

They went to the cup finals two years after that.

For 4 seasons the only teams they lost to in the playoffs won the cup -and the first of those was in the ECFs against the penguins who went to the finals that season but lost.  In fact from 2008-2013 The flyers were only beaten by either the eventual Stanley Cup Champion  or the eventual Eastern Conference Champion.

 

Imagine if they had been icing Justin Williams and Patrick Sharp instead of Dan Carcillo and Jody Shelley.

 

 

[vis]

20 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

All this talk of youngsters makes me think of 06-07. Remember how we thought all these unproven kids are going to change the direction of the franchise?

Yeah, there was a lot of excitement back then.  Something about this group coming up feels different, though.  

 

That group had a number of players who already had questionable reputations and work ethics when they joined the team (Upshall, Lupul and Hartnell).  And Carter and Richards were deified by the organization before they even stepped on the ice, so they felt they could do no wrong and weren't really held accountable.  The org let the off-ice antics go on for a while and should have paid more attention to that, imo.  I hope the org learned its lesson with how they handled that team.  

 

All of these kids are coming up through the Flyers' system.  Hopefully the org can mold them into the players they want them to become.  My sense is that, when drafting, Hextall is very focused on the mental traits of the players.  So many of his picks have been characterized as "smart" and/or "hardworking" players.  Plus, Hextall is also focused on teaching these kids how to be pros off the ice in terms of training, etc.  That's a big reason for letting these kids grow up in the AHL.  I hope that approach to drafting and then developing players allows the org to avoid the problems they encountered with their last crop of "the youth."  

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, vis said:

The org let the off-ice antics go on for a while and should have paid more attention to that, imo. 

 

 

If there were off ice antics that interfered with their play on the ice, the organization should definitely have stepped in.  There are substance abuse programs available to them and to the players.  Somehow I have a feeling the rumors in this department were a bit inflated.  

 

2 hours ago, vis said:

I hope the org learned its lesson with how they handled that team.  

Me too.  I hope they don't trade away the core that got them to the cup finals as they're entering their prime for a bunch of unproven magic beans and sign a psychopath of a goalie on an absurdly long and absurdly expensive deal... and all that was only the start of the really bad stuff. 

 

2 hours ago, vis said:

All of these kids are coming up through the Flyers' system.  Hopefully the org can mold them into the players they want them to become.  My sense is that, when drafting, Hextall is very focused on the mental traits of the players.  So many of his picks have been characterized as "smart" and/or "hardworking" players.  Plus, Hextall is also focused on teaching these kids how to be pros off the ice in terms of training, etc.  That's a big reason for letting these kids grow up in the AHL.  I hope that approach to drafting and then developing players allows the org to avoid the problems they encountered with their last crop of "the youth."  

 

I definitely think you're right about this assessment of Hextall's drafting.  The big wild card is Patrick because they kinda just had to draft him.  There wasn't much choice between two guys kinda close in talent and one has the character you want.  Patrick was just the guy at #2.  Same would have been true if it was Nico.

 

Another nice situation for this way of thinking is that there are no easy paths to the Flyers roster at this point. Even Patrick doesn't have a given role.  Konecny really had to earn that spot last year and even he (and rookie of the year finalize Ghost) got benched for stretches to work on things.  

 

Even when the reads and raffls and weises and lehteras and even macdonald all fade away in the years ahead, there is such a depth of talent that no one of these players can just coast and assume he'll get the spot.  Sanheim could feel like the next open spot is his... but don't look now, here's Myers and Friedman.  

 

This sends a clear message to all of the others (as does spending 2-3 years in the AHL) that they are going to have to prove it and maintain it.  It's not about them.  They're not McDavid.  Though jeeez louise I would love having McDavid be our problem. 

 

 

[vis]

@King Knut

 

My sense is the rumors of partying and what-not were not inflated.  They had a well-earned reputation in Philly and at the NJ beaches in the summer.  The org finally decided to try to salvage Richards and Carter by jettisoning players (Upshall, Lupul, Eager) who they felt were bad influences.  Then, the refusal to adhere to "dry island" was the last straw for Richards and Carter.   I think it became pretty evident later in his career that Richards had his own problems.  The trade seemed to straighten out Carter.  Being traded really hurt him and not just because he went to Columbus initially.  He loved Philly and wanted to be a Flyer.  I don't think Richards cared.  I think Richards was a bit of an unreedemable jerk.  Don't have the same feeling about Carter.  

 

To be fair, I don't know how other teams' players act off ice.  With the Flyers, it seemed to be a pretty notorious group and tales of their antics aren't so far fetched.  

 

I dont see history repeating itself.  The Flyers learned, the hard way, about handling young players.  Plus, the league is such that it's difficult to succeed by trading youth and signing free agents.  The dynamics aren't the same.  It's a young man's league now.  

 

Hextall has has done a good job at making players earn it.  Like I said, Richards and Carter were deified and given the keys to the car very early.  They abused it and crashed the car.  

 

I do do like that Patrick comes from a hockey family.  There just seem to be good intangibles in place with respect to him.  I like the idea of he and Provorov leading the charge.  

[King Knut]

I don't know what car they crashed.  They did nothing but succeed.  If the argument is that they "crashed the car" because they could have been even better than they were, then what the hell do you call the lot we got for them and have been dealing with since?  

 

How are Richards and Carter "crashing the car" by losing in the ECF's one year, then three successive years to the eventual Cup Champion (including in a game 6 OT of the cup finals)?  While Giroux and Jake and Simmer are somehow NOT crashing the car by missing the playoffs 3 of 6 years and getting eliminated in the first round two of the other 3 years?  

 

Surely you see the flaw in this thinking, right?

 

Just now, vis said:

@King Knut

 

To be fair, I don't know how other teams' players act off ice.  With the Flyers, it seemed to be a pretty notorious group and tales of their antics aren't so far fetched.  

 

I'm not asking for specifics, but like if you were there or something, that's one thing.  Otherwise, it literally is conjecture.  It's not documented.  

 

"Richards had his own problems" is also the kind of rumor mill amplification I'm talking about.  

Richards had been pushed known highly addictive opioids for years by two separate organizations to keep him in games to help them win.  He was stopped at the border without a prescription.  That turned into him drug running illegal pharmaceuticals across borders in the middle of the night to snort in back allies with prostitutes and El Chapo somehow... most likely to make it easier for Lombardi to jettison him and terminate his contract, which we all know now didn't work (which is probably a good thing because Richards' lawyers would have sued the shorts off the Kings and Flyers for reckless endangerment if the contract termination would have been upheld... which begs the question, do structured settlements count against the cap?

 

Anyway, it's not that I doubt you if you saw things yourself on a regular basis (maybe you're a bartender or something) but if you're referring to the same old Carchidi "old man yells at cloud" B.S. that the rest of us have been amplifying on these message boards for 7 years, then I'm just not sold.  

 

The fact of the matter is that Upshall and Lupul were good but not great players.  

 

Upshall may have been traded as a sort of wake up call to the remaining players (I hated the move at the time and it seemed to backfire pretty quickly on them) but he was traded for a more energetic player who was an agitator that Holmgren clearly thought had potential as a third line winger.  And Carcillo might have if he hadn't also been a complete lunatic.

 

Lupul was traded because Homer wanted Pronger so the Ducks took as high a price as they could get for their dead Albatross.  It's almost like they were just seeing how far they could push Homer so they just kept asking for picks and players to see when he'd say no.    Not that Lupul was any great loss.  They had nothing to replace him with mind you, but his 20 -25 goals paled in comparison to what Pronger brought.

 

However the other thing Pronger brought was dissent and angst... which (according to the rumor mills) is why his services were not retained by Edmonton and why Anaheim was cool with trading him in the name of a rebuild on the fly that eventually helped them back to the conference finals last year.  

 

Long story short is that if you're going to bring in Pronger, you're going to have to make him your captain or else you're going to have attitude problems all around.  

 

anyway,

 

Just now, vis said:

I dont see history repeating itself.  The Flyers learned, the hard way, about handling young players.  Plus, the league is such that it's difficult to succeed by trading and signing free agents.  The dynamics aren't the same.  

 

Hextall has has done a good job at making players earn it.  Like I said, Richards and Carter were deified and given the keys to the car very early.  They abused it and crashed the car.  

 

I do do like that Patrick comes from a hockey family.  There just seem to be good intangibles in place with respect to him.  I like the idea of he and Provorov leading the charge.  

 

I don't see history repeating itself either and mostly because Holmgren isn't the GM and Snider has sadly passed on.  

There is no doubt in my mind that either Holmgren outright had a severe stroke when that puck slid past michael leighton in OT of game 6... or he was doing a lot of crazy crap because Snider was guilting him into making desperate moves.    Maybe it was a combination of both, but after the 2011 season, very very little of anything Homer did made much sense and if it did, it was either lucky (Pronger) or immediately followed by some utter lunacy to negate it (Bob).  

 

Richards and Carter were given the keys after they'd won at every level they'd ever played at and at a time when there was LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE LEFT.    Granted, they could have made Gagne Captain, but by the time the 2007-2008 season rolled around, Gagne played a grand total of 25 games and Richards and Carter were the team's elder statesmen. 

 

Kimmo & Briere were brand new to the team (along with Hartnell, Coburn, Knuble, Upshall & Lupul) were all brand new.

Knuble had been there a year, but Richards and Carter had been with the team two at this point.  

 

Richards and Carter had won in Juniors and at the World Juniors, Umberger came in and they won the Calder Cup, they'd been on the Flyers for two years already.  Roenick was gone, Forseberg was gone, Primeau was gone, Recchi was gone, Gagne was Hurt and Kappy was on his last legs, leaving the league at the end of the season.   handing over the keys to Richards, Carter and Umberger made a lot of sense, and it worked.  They went from last place to the ECF's in 12 months.  

 

The next season they did better, but ran into the Cup winning Penguins in the first round.   The season after that they lost in the cup final.  After that they finished in first place, but got beaten by the cup winning Bruins in the second round but they pissed off Homer so they got traded for a bunch of seeds that got rushed into the lineup because surprise surprise, there weren't enough forwards to ice an NHL caliber team... and all so Homer would have the cap space to sign Bryzgalov because Snider wanted a "Franchise goalie".

 

Maybe they drank too much.  Maybe they fooled around too much.  BENCH THEM.  Install a breathalizer on the locker room door.  Drug test the hell out of them until you can prove they need substance abuse programs.  But trading them to sign Bryzgalov so you can build a team around Giroux, two guys the Kings were happy to get rid of for Mike Richards, an underachieving first round pick and another as yet unknown first round pick is not the way to go from the second round loss to the cup champs to improving the team any time soon.  But don't take my word for it.  We have the past 6 years as evidence.  

 

 

Just now, vis said:

@King Knut

 

My sense is the rumors of partying and what-not were not inflated.  They had a well-earned reputation in Philly and at the NJ beaches in the summer.  The org finally decided to try to salvage Richards and Carter by jettisoning players (Upshall, Lupul, Eager) who they felt were bad influences.  Then, the refusal to adhere to "dry island" was the last straw for Richards and Carter.   I think it became pretty evident later in his career that Richards had his own problems.  The trade seemed to straighten out Carter.  Being traded really hurt him and not just because he went to Columbus initially.  He loved Philly and wanted to be a Flyer.  I don't think Richards cared.  I think Richards was a bit of an unreedemable jerk.  Don't have the same feeling about Carter.  

 

To be fair, I don't know how other teams' players act off ice.  With the Flyers, it seemed to be a pretty notorious group and tales of their antics aren't so far fetched.  

 

I dont see history repeating itself.  The Flyers learned, the hard way, about handling young players.  Plus, the league is such that it's difficult to succeed by trading and signing free agents.  The dynamics aren't the same.  

 

Hextall has has done a good job at making players earn it.  Like I said, Richards and Carter were deified and given the keys to the car very early.  They abused it and crashed the car.  

 

I do do like that Patrick comes from a hockey family.  There just seem to be good intangibles in place with respect to him.  I like the idea of he and Provorov leading the charge.  

[vis]

@King Knut

 

I don't think my thoughts on that group's antics and the effect on the team are conjecture.  Granted I was not there, but I've heard a lot from more than one person with close connections to the team at the time.  One person is a former poster at the old philly.com board.  Most know that person's connection and probably cringe at the mere reference to her.  The other is a friend of mine from way back and our families remain close, though he and I don't get a chance to talk much any more (our parents do).  And, yeah, I am/was friends with some bar managers and employees at the NJ shore (spent almost 30 years "down the shore" in summers and portions of the off-season; i've come to know some folks).

 

I don't want to rehash the merits of trading Richards or Carter.  I was surprised they traded both.  I thought one would eventually go, but not both.  But was more surprised they traded Carter, actually.  Richards is an ass, plain and simple.  When people said it didn't look like he cared on the ice at times, they weren't exactly wrong.  The guy had lost passion for hockey.  I think that's pretty apparent now.

 

The trade of Upshall was motivated by a desire to break up the atmosphere.  Trading Lupul was not a hard decision at all and the fact that they got Pronger made it that much easier.

 

The teams that got to the ECF and Cup finals also had a healthy vet presence (and they were lucky to even get into the POs for the Cup run, if memory serves).  As you recall, Pronger was on the Cup final team and was de facto captain (for at least half of the room).

[King Knut]

18 minutes ago, vis said:

@King Knut

 

I don't think my thoughts on that group's antics and the effect on the team are conjecture.  Granted I was not there, but I've heard a lot from more than one person with close connections to the team at the time.  One person is a former poster at the old philly.com board.  Most know that person's connection and probably cringe at the mere reference to her.  The other is a friend of mine from way back and our families remain close, though he and I don't get a chance to talk much any more (our parents do).  And, yeah, I am/was friends with some bar managers and employees at the NJ shore (spent almost 30 years "down the shore" in summers and portions of the off-season; i've come to know some folks).

 

 

I think I do know who you're talking about and if so, her insight would have ended in 2007, no?

 

As far as the others go, I'm not in a position to judge.  It's just that in my experience, such stories usually get inflated and blown out of proportion.  For instance, my aunt who's boss was a nurse who was on duty in the emergency room the night Jerry Pennicoli came in with...   

 

18 minutes ago, vis said:

@King Knut

I don't want to rehash the merits of trading Richards or Carter.  I was surprised they traded both.  I thought one would eventually go, but not both.  But was more surprised they traded Carter, actually.  Richards is an ass, plain and simple.  When people said it didn't look like he cared on the ice at times, they weren't exactly wrong.  The guy had lost passion for hockey.  I think that's pretty apparent now.

 

When I saw the headline that said "Richards Traded to the Kings" I thought, "GREAT!  Homer traded for Jonathan Quick!  Awesome!!!"   When I saw what it was for, my head scratching started and never stopped. And I love Simmonds and I'm the jack ass defending Couturier all the time.  (Schenn and Voracek however are not my favorites).  

 

The only thing that's apparent about Richards now is that he played a brand of hockey that was well beyond his size and he played it hard enough (i.e. taking few enough shifts off, and looking like he cared enough) that he got hurt.  A LOT.  And he almost always played through it.   Hence the off season surgeries, hence the opioids, hence the piss poor attitude when asses like Carchidi gave him crap all the time in the press conferences.  

 

People didn't like him because they didn't like him.  Everything else is just crap people say to justify it.  I've seen it enough in my life in the real world to know it when I see it in someone else's world

 

Which isn't to say he might have been an ass.  Maybe he was, maybe he was just not very gregarious or graced with public speaking skills or with the ability to smile and be cordial while a reporter is being a complete d*** to his face...   But none of that is why people didn't like him.  

 

I liked him because he was good at hockey while he was here and while he and Carter were the core of this team they went from being God awful to being very very good and it really seemed like they were just getting started.  If the room was split in 2010, I'd posite that the major difference in 2010 and the year before was Pronger... who had been ushered away from his previous two teams despite how good he was because of equally unproven, yet LOUD rumors that he was a a divisive arrogant figure in the Locker room.  

 

None of that makes Richards a bad captain or a bad hockey player.  And none of it changes the fact that the team has gone from Mediocre to God awful back up to Mediocre since he and Carter were traded.  

 

[vis]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I think I do know who you're talking about and if so, her insight would have ended in 2007, no?

Yes and so most of my "knowledge" thereafter comes through others with ties to the org.  Don't blame you for being skeptical of my contacts.  Won't try to defend my or their credibility.

 

Quote

The only thing that's apparent about Richards now is that he played a brand of hockey that was well beyond his size and he played it hard enough (i.e. taking few enough shifts off, and looking like he cared enough) that he got hurt.  A LOT.  And he almost always played through it.   Hence the off season surgeries, hence the opioids, hence the piss poor attitude when asses like Carchidi gave him crap all the time in the press conferences.

If Richards took care of himself away from the ice and trained better he probably wouldn't have been as broken down as he became.

 

Don't care so much about him being an ass to the media.

 

Quote

People didn't like him because they didn't like him.

Don't understand this.  I think the fanbase wanted to (and did for a period) love Richards and Carter.  I think most hoped Richards would end his career among the pantheon of great Flyers.  Not sure what you mean here...

 

Quote

And none of it changes the fact that the team has gone from Mediocre to God awful back up to Mediocre since he and Carter were traded.  

I am not sure the presence of Richards and/or Carter would have prevented that from happening.  At least Schenn and Simmonds are still playing hockey. 

[King Knut]

18 minutes ago, vis said:

If Richards took care of himself away from the ice and trained better he probably wouldn't have been as broken down as he became.

 

It takes a few pretty big leaps to reach that conclusion.

 

18 minutes ago, vis said:

Don't care so much about him being an ass to the media.

 

Don't understand this.  I think the fanbase wanted to (and did for a period) love Richards and Carter.  I think most hoped Richards would end his career among the pantheon of great Flyers.  Not sure what you mean here...

 

These two are intimately entwined.  Part of it's the Philly Sports media and part of it's the Philly fan base and their relationship with the media and the teams/players.  It's not unique in sports, but it's intensified.

 

We hate McNabb, we love McNabb, we hate McNabb, we love TO we hate TO, to hell with TO, we love Hamels, we hate Hamels, We love Utley, we hate Utley, We love Ryan Howard, Ryan Howard Sucks.  Mike Schmidt is awesome... no wait he said things that the press turned into negative about the fan base so we hate him.   Sound familiar?

 

It's a broken record in this town. The press paints players in certain light and as a city we tend to have an inferiority complex that really really wants to feel challenged and antagonized.   Some players have a certain gravitas, experience or gravitas that enables them to bully the press.   Pronger for instance was a bigger A hole than to the press than Richards ever was... but you could see that they were literally scared of him.  Plus he was an "outsider" who'd had success elsewhere so they "needed" to respect him more.

 

It all ties into our inferiority complex as a city and a fan base that I have many ideas on but won't get into. For now I'll just stick with the objective observation that this town loves to be antagonistic to it's athletes.  We want them to overcome that antagonism and prove us wrong.  If they can do that, we'll respect them... for a while.   We want them to beg us for forgiveness when they don't win it all every year.  We want them to show us emotionally that they NEED it as badly as we do.  Richards (like Utley for example) played through extremely painful injuries that threatened to sideline him and he went toe to toe with the best and the biggest in the league and he did a damn good job and from what I could see, he was just as pissed as us when he didn't win, but despite all of that he just didn't see the need to apologize to us.  If they're young, like Richards and have a reputation, they're cocky and disrespectful asses.  If they're old and mean and big like Pronger, we laugh it off.  Sound familiar?   I wouldn't think what I do about the situation if I hadn't witnessed it most of my life with one sports figure or another.  

 

Richards probably drank more than he should have and stayed out too late more than he should have.  He definitely had a cocky screw you attitude with the press very quickly.  Combine the two and I think you very quickly get a rumor mill and a reputation that blow all of it well out of proportion.  

 

18 minutes ago, vis said:

I am not sure the presence of Richards and/or Carter would have prevented that from happening.  At least Schenn and Simmonds are still playing hockey. 

 

If they don't trade Richards and Carter, they never get Bryzgalov.  If they don't get Bryzgalov, they never have to trade Bob. 

That alone makes it worth it don't you think?

 

Here's the thing.  I don't hate the trades themselves.  I hate them in the context of everything else Homer did because they simply make no sense.  If Homer decided he wanted to rebuild in 2011 after a 2nd round exit to the Cup Winning Bruins who had a chip on their shoulder after we shamed them with history's greatest comeback in a playoff series, then so be it.

 

If he wanted to rebuild because they drank and partied too much and he didn't want to help them out by being you know... a manager... then so be it.   BUT THEN DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON WINNING NOW.  Bryzgalov was a nightmare.  Losing Bob was a nightmare.  Every good move he made in one direction was followed by 6 more in the opposite direction.  It was schizophrenic and mind boggling in hindsight.  

 

If they never traded Richards and Carter, I agree, the team would almost certainly be worse off in the next few seasons than they are now.

 

However, the past 5 seasons would almost certainly have been significantly better.  

 

Long story short, trade him, don't trade him... Let's just not pretend Richards was a crappy player or a locker room cancer or that he wasn't successful let alone that the team crashed and burned.  They did quite well.  In Hindsight, the kings seem to have gotten the last ounces of productive years out of him before his body broke down.  But if you're going to trade your captain for prospects, then you're rebuilding and you'd better face facts.  

 

Aside from that, anyone who thinks the Carter trade was a good idea in hindsight is a lunatic IMHO.  And this is from the guy who defends Couturier all the time.  

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

On 7/19/2017 at 3:15 PM, mojo1917 said:

tough guy? where do I say I'm tough? 

I called you on your poor behavior, which I find inconsistent with my interactions with you in other threads.

 

but, if you insist:

Stanley Cup final.

106 point season.

you have to go back to the Lindros teams to find those results.The Lindros teams were half built, half acquired.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the "poor behavior" that "you called me out" on:

 

Quote

This was different from previous years how?

 

Yeah, that's real offensive.

 

Soooooo.....neither won anything, did I understand that correctly?

[fanaticV3.0]

On 7/19/2017 at 5:04 PM, King Knut said:

 

They went from the worst team in the league to the eastern conference finals in a year.

They went to the cup finals two years after that.

For 4 seasons the only teams they lost to in the playoffs won the cup -and the first of those was in the ECFs against the penguins who went to the finals that season but lost.  In fact from 2008-2013 The flyers were only beaten by either the eventual Stanley Cup Champion  or the eventual Eastern Conference Champion.

 

Imagine if they had been icing Justin Williams and Patrick Sharp instead of Dan Carcillo and Jody Shelley.

 

 

 

Does this represent something the organization has never achieved prior to the dynamic duo's presence? That's a rhetorical question. I'm just trying to figure out why  you're so proud of this "accomplishment".

[fanaticV3.0]

On 7/20/2017 at 8:18 AM, vis said:

Yeah, there was a lot of excitement back then.  Something about this group coming up feels different, though.  

 

That group had a number of players who already had questionable reputations and work ethics when they joined the team (Upshall, Lupul and Hartnell).  And Carter and Richards were deified by the organization before they even stepped on the ice, so they felt they could do no wrong and weren't really held accountable.  The org let the off-ice antics go on for a while and should have paid more attention to that, imo.  I hope the org learned its lesson with how they handled that team.  

 

All of these kids are coming up through the Flyers' system.  Hopefully the org can mold them into the players they want them to become.  My sense is that, when drafting, Hextall is very focused on the mental traits of the players.  So many of his picks have been characterized as "smart" and/or "hardworking" players.  Plus, Hextall is also focused on teaching these kids how to be pros off the ice in terms of training, etc.  That's a big reason for letting these kids grow up in the AHL.  I hope that approach to drafting and then developing players allows the org to avoid the problems they encountered with their last crop of "the youth."  

 

It's funny when the direction you did, because I was thinking the opposite. In 06-07 I was excited.the youth movement was just beginning and there was a legitimate sense of change – and not just change, but improvement. Then reality set in and they were the worst team in the league.

 

This time around, I'm not that excited. Here we are again thinking that a bunch of kids who have never played a game in the league – and a handful of more who have played very little – are all going to make the roster. Lindblom, Sanheim, Morin, Weal? Really? Come on. I laugh to myself even more when I hear people talk about Lyon or Hart. Slow your roll, people. The only kids I feel like it is safe to be legitimately excited about our Provrov often Patrick; and the latter is really only because of where he was drafted. Statistically, odds are pretty good most of them won't even make the team on a long-term basis.

 

This is definitely the right route to go, there's just nothing concrete to hold onto yet.

[King Knut]

59 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Does this represent something the organization has never achieved prior to the dynamic duo's presence? That's a rhetorical question. I'm just trying to figure out why  you're so proud of this "accomplishment".

 

At the time, I wasn't.  I pine for it now because the team has been god awful to mediocre since.  

 

They were GOOD.  The team's been Good before. They haven't been Good since.  It's kind of as simple as that.  

 

There's nothing to do about those trades but in my book, there's no reason to speak ill of the departed when they were the last guys to help get this team anywhere positive and the team has done squat without them.

 

 

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

It's funny when the direction you did, because I was thinking the opposite. In 06-07 I was excited.the youth movement was just beginning and there was a legitimate sense of change – and not just change, but improvement. Then reality set in and they were the worst team in the league.

 

This time around, I'm not that excited. Here we are again thinking that a bunch of kids who have never played a game in the league – and a handful of more who have played very little – are all going to make the roster. Lindblom, Sanheim, Morin, Weal? Really? Come on. I laugh to myself even more when I hear people talk about Lyon or Hart. Slow your roll, people. The only kids I feel like it is safe to be legitimately excited about our Provrov often Patrick; and the latter is really only because of where he was drafted. Statistically, odds are pretty good most of them won't even make the team on a long-term basis.

 

This is definitely the right route to go, there's just nothing concrete to hold onto yet.

 

in October 2007, they basically had Carter and Richards who had both been on the Flyers two years at that point and Umberger.

 

That was it as far as the youth movement went.  We knew they were good and we knew we liked them, but it wasn't until Hartnell, Coburn, Upshall, and Lupul were brought in that it started to feel like a movement... at least to me.

 

At the same time, Homer  brought in key pieces like Timmo and Briere.  As much as I rag on Homer, the work he did in 2007 was nothing short of amazing... in spite of the fact that he didn't seem to think they'd need a goalie (Jeff Hackett?)

 

The reason I'm excited about this team is that they have the "key pieces" already and more of them.  Add to that the prospects (and more of them) and you've really got something interesting happening. In 2007, Knuble and Briere were great leaders and put up good numbers and played extremely well... but the majority of the heavy lifting night in and night out fell to the so called youth movement (at least on offense).  

 

Prospects are prospects until you see them play for a couple of years, but I for one am more excited about Lindblom than I was about Lupul.  More excited about Konecny than I was about Upshall, more interested in Weal than Umberger and certainly more excited about Morin, Hagg, Sanheim and Myers than I ever was about Parent, Meyer, Jones and Picard.  

 

Another superior aspect to the now is that the 2nd tier prospects, the ones we don't really talk that much about... Rubstov, Vrobyov, Vecchione, Freidman, Allison... these guys would have been at about the hype level of the guys we had going into 2007-2008 and right now they're all on the outside looking in at maybe cracking the 4th line of this club in two years.  

 

The defense now is a bit of a different beast.  We don't have a Timmonen type and we don't have a Coburn type and we certainly don't have a Smith.  

 

We have Provo who is like a young Timmo, but as much as most here hate to admit it, still made rookie mistakes... which hen paired with MacDonald is an easy thing to turn into a disaster for you.  Morin could be like a Coburn type.  

 

The 2007-2008 team had no one like Ghost though.  

Hagg, Sanheim and Myers are all yet to be seen, but the 2007-2008 team had NO ONE like them.  

 

If Hagg is just okay, he'll be better than the bottom half of the D squad in 2007-2008.  And that team had no one who skates like Sanheim or Myers.  How that translates to the pro game is obviously unknown, but the potential for them to be skilled puck moving but positionally responsible D men is far greater than the potential of anyone on that old squad.

 

Anyway, I think there are a billion more reasons to be excited about this youth movement.  The team in October of 2007 was just as unproven and had fewer proven vets and far less potential in their "youth".  

 

The only thing that had over this team is that we'd gotten a good look at Carter, Richards and Umberger and felt pretty secure that they looked "ready".  

 

 

 

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

At the time, I wasn't.  I pine for it now because the team has been god awful to mediocre since.  

 

They were GOOD.  The team's been Good before. They haven't been Good since.  It's kind of as simple as that.  

 

There's nothing to do about those trades but in my book, there's no reason to speak ill of the departed when they were the last guys to help get this team anywhere positive and the team has done squat without them.

 

 

 

You pine for that team or "winning" (by winning I mean making the playoffs)?

 

The organization has made it to four Stanley Cups since the world was blessed with my presence. The organization has zero Stanley Cup championships in my lifetime. Personally, I see no reason to value any particular one of those four teams more than the other. all of those runs were fun at the time, but ultimately they all fell short. And if I had to pick one of them to hold a special place in my heart, it sure as sh-t isn't the 09-10 team.

[fanaticV3.0]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

in October 2007, they basically had Carter and Richards who had both been on the Flyers two years at that point and Umberger.

 

That was it as far as the youth movement went.  We knew they were good and we knew we liked them, but it wasn't until Hartnell, Coburn, Upshall, and Lupul were brought in that it started to feel like a movement... at least to me.

 

At the same time, Homer  brought in key pieces like Timmo and Briere.  As much as I rag on Homer, the work he did in 2007 was nothing short of amazing... in spite of the fact that he didn't seem to think they'd need a goalie (Jeff Hackett?)

 

The reason I'm excited about this team is that they have the "key pieces" already and more of them.  Add to that the prospects (and more of them) and you've really got something interesting happening. In 2007, Knuble and Briere were great leaders and put up good numbers and played extremely well... but the majority of the heavy lifting night in and night out fell to the so called youth movement (at least on offense).  

 

Prospects are prospects until you see them play for a couple of years, but I for one am more excited about Lindblom than I was about Lupul.  More excited about Konecny than I was about Upshall, more interested in Weal than Umberger and certainly more excited about Morin, Hagg, Sanheim and Myers than I ever was about Parent, Meyer, Jones and Picard.  

 

Another superior aspect to the now is that the 2nd tier prospects, the ones we don't really talk that much about... Rubstov, Vrobyov, Vecchione, Freidman, Allison... these guys would have been at about the hype level of the guys we had going into 2007-2008 and right now they're all on the outside looking in at maybe cracking the 4th line of this club in two years.  

 

The defense now is a bit of a different beast.  We don't have a Timmonen type and we don't have a Coburn type and we certainly don't have a Smith.  

 

We have Provo who is like a young Timmo, but as much as most here hate to admit it, still made rookie mistakes... which hen paired with MacDonald is an easy thing to turn into a disaster for you.  Morin could be like a Coburn type.  

 

The 2007-2008 team had no one like Ghost though.  

Hagg, Sanheim and Myers are all yet to be seen, but the 2007-2008 team had NO ONE like them.  

 

If Hagg is just okay, he'll be better than the bottom half of the D squad in 2007-2008.  And that team had no one who skates like Sanheim or Myers.  How that translates to the pro game is obviously unknown, but the potential for them to be skilled puck moving but positionally responsible D men is far greater than the potential of anyone on that old squad.

 

Anyway, I think there are a billion more reasons to be excited about this youth movement.  The team in October of 2007 was just as unproven and had fewer proven vets and far less potential in their "youth".  

 

The only thing that had over this team is that we'd gotten a good look at Carter, Richards and Umberger and felt pretty secure that they looked "ready".  

 

 

 

 

 

 

In 05-06 Richards and Carter had just won the Calder cup. It was a foregone conclusion that they would both be up with the big club the next season – and play a big role for many years to come. Umberger had just scored 20 as a rookie. Just because we didn't have the same exact number of prospects then that we do now doesn't mean both seasons were about the future.