Howie58 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Greetings: If you recall a few weeks back I posted that Giroux's performance was one of the five big questions heading into next year. Here is a take on that from CSN: http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/end-end-state-claude-giroux?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo&yptr=yahoo I hope the consensus is right, that we get a "stabilized" Giroux who is helped by some newcomers. The possible move to wing--interesting. Yikes...14 goals...that's a pisser. I hope we see more this year. Howie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 It's pretty simple, the more skill we add up front the less pressure there is on Giroux and other teams will have to be equally concerned about newer guys like Konecny and Lindblom and Patrick, so they can't just key in on shutting down Giroux. We will have more offense over 3 lines, instead of just one line.I think he will have more room to operate and I like having a physical guy like Simmons on his wing to open up more space for G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoopyten Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Giroux's ability to rebound is huge. If he can't, and if the Flyers aren't in hunt for a playoff spot this upcoming season, I could see Hextall looking really hard at breaking up the big three of Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds. Giroux would be the most difficult to move, simply because of the combination of his decline in production, the contract hit and his NMC. Voracek has the same cap hit, which is a hurdle, but he's younger and still somewhat dynamic. At least by the eye test, Voracek is still a similar player to what he has been in the past. Simmonds would be the easiest(in terms of interest and return) to deal. He's got 2 years left on a steal of a contract and should have at least 3-4 good years left. If Simmonds were to hit the market, Hextall could easily get a huge haul for him. I'm not advocating trades here, either. Just talking frankly. This core wasn't assembled by Hextall, and it's won one playoff round since 2012. It hasn't had much of a supporting cast, but They're going to need bounce back years from Giroux and Voracek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 35 minutes ago, scoopyten said: Giroux's ability to rebound is huge. If he can't, and if the Flyers aren't in hunt for a playoff spot this upcoming season, I could see Hextall looking really hard at breaking up the big three of Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds. Giroux would be the most difficult to move, simply because of the combination of his decline in production, the contract hit and his NMC. Voracek has the same cap hit, which is a hurdle, but he's younger and still somewhat dynamic. At least by the eye test, Voracek is still a similar player to what he has been in the past. Simmonds would be the easiest(in terms of interest and return) to deal. He's got 2 years left on a steal of a contract and should have at least 3-4 good years left. If Simmonds were to hit the market, Hextall could easily get a huge haul for him. I'm not advocating trades here, either. Just talking frankly. This core wasn't assembled by Hextall, and it's won one playoff round since 2012. It hasn't had much of a supporting cast, but They're going to need bounce back years from Giroux and Voracek. Scoopyten: I agree with everything said. My fear--stated in a posted about two weeks ago--is that his under-performance has optics and "narrative" problems over and above the scoring, and we saw that the second half of last year. There were questions of whether or not he should have the C. . . . questions of leadership...blah, blah. My fear is the disruption and possible blockage of someone more capable as C or first line Center being hemmed in by an overpaid, diminishing G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 9 hours ago, Howie58 said: Scoopyten: I agree with everything said. My fear--stated in a posted about two weeks ago--is that his under-performance has optics and "narrative" problems over and above the scoring, and we saw that the second half of last year. There were questions of whether or not he should have the C. . . . questions of leadership...blah, blah. My fear is the disruption and possible blockage of someone more capable as C or first line Center being hemmed in by an overpaid, diminishing G. I remember discussions around here about an overpaid McDud and folks saying it really didn't matter so much cause we don't need the cap space at present. I'm not sure I agree with that statement for McDud, but I would agree with that for Giroux. As mentioned above, his potential for a rebound season and return to 70-80 pt form is very possible. Was he playing injured last year? Very possible. Is the media and leadership chatter getting to him? It has bothered many an NHL captain before. He'd be in good company. Is he capable of figuring that stuff out, healing up, and bouncing back? Absolutely. Moreover, as @scoopyten mentioned, he is currently a very difficult player to move. I would add though, he's not only difficult due to things like cap hit and production, he's also difficult because he remains the team's scoring engine at the moment, even in his down years. Moving Giroux at this time would very likely mean a considerable step back in overall scoring ability and flexibility for the team. That would be painful to watch, and I'm really not sure it would be to our benefit either. The return would have to be amazing, and I'm just not sure that's in the cards right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 1 hour ago, elmatus said: Moving Giroux at this time would very likely mean a considerable step back in overall scoring ability and flexibility for the team. That would be painful to watch, and I'm really not sure it would be to our benefit either. The return would have to be amazing, and I'm just not sure that's in the cards right now. This would be truly the "kick the can down the road move"... dealing Schenn, he's a peripheral piece, he drives nothing in terms of scoring, he got points, but those points were not a result of his dominant play, they were scraps from the hard work of others. Dealing Giroux would signal "total rebuild", his back should be pretty sore from carrying the team around for the last 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 Good Morning! Agreed with all that a trade is tough here--partly because the guy is associated with being "Mr. O and B," a little like Shane Doan, for example. I hope G is on the mend and gets support to bring his numbers back to where the salary is justifiable. But if they aren't, we face a lot of head scratching. It will also put a lot of pressure on Hakstol--he is hired to win, not maintain to egos or justify salary. Let's keep our fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: but those points were not a result of his dominant play, they were scraps from the hard work of others. And let's be honest he and Coots padded their stats a bit at the end of this season when there was nothing to play for zero pressure they were out the playoffs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 This is an interesting year for Giroux from my perspective. Does he rebound or do we find out his tank is starting to run on empty and he becomes nothing more than a power play specialist? Something tells me he will rebound back to a 60-70 point player - still grossly overpaid in my opinion. But, I also think it could easily be a 45-50 point year... My concern still lies with his 5v5 play. For all the crap that TK took last year from Hak Giroux was simply bad/lazy on the defensive side of the puck. Maybe he was hurt but there were too many times he just looked gassed on the back-check. The one knock I have always had is that G tends to get a little too fancy with the puck and is more than not looking to make the perfect pass. My hope is that with the influx of youth G also gets re-energized. I feel like he has taken the majority of the beating the past few years while this team was in limbo - and some of it for good reason. He seems to be the type of guy that internalizes things and holds onto things too much. I hope he figures out how to let all the other BS go and just play hockey - have fun. Last, it is imperative that G comes out of the gate in full swing. This team can ill-afford another horrendous start by the captain and he simply needs to step up his game. If not, the Flyers really need to figure some things out for the future. Having two players that are making 8+ million and not getting the return is a tough situation for Hextall - but again, Hextall created the issue when he signed Jake. Jake and G both need to be "stars" for this Team to take the next step. Whether they both return to form is anyone's guess. Fingers are crossed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 I think Giroux has a 70 to 80 point season this year. The hip and abdomen surgery took a lot out of him last year and you know he was hurting the previous year too. I also look at guys who've had the same surgery and their numbers were bad in the season immediately following the surgery. A year removed from the surgery, guys were playing lights out (Ryan Getzlaf is the one guy who really suffered with this sort of injury). This isn't just a surgery that once it's done and once you've healed up, you're ready. That just means the surgery itself has healed. Giroux was never in game shape and the Flyers (looking at Jim McCrossin) should have NEVER let Giroux set foot on the ice until his hip and abdomen were 100% back in range and motion, not just 100% healed from the surgery. That's why I hope they take their time with Nolan Patrick. Get that abdomen/hernia healthy and looked after and ensure he's got his full range of motion back with no pain before he sets foot on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 10:31 PM, scoopyten said: Giroux's ability to rebound is huge. If he can't, and if the Flyers aren't in hunt for a playoff spot this upcoming season, I could see Hextall looking really hard at breaking up the big three of Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds. Giroux would be the most difficult to move, simply because of the combination of his decline in production, the contract hit and his NMC. Voracek has the same cap hit, which is a hurdle, but he's younger and still somewhat dynamic. At least by the eye test, Voracek is still a similar player to what he has been in the past. Simmonds would be the easiest(in terms of interest and return) to deal. He's got 2 years left on a steal of a contract and should have at least 3-4 good years left. If Simmonds were to hit the market, Hextall could easily get a huge haul for him. I'm not advocating trades here, either. Just talking frankly. This core wasn't assembled by Hextall, and it's won one playoff round since 2012. It hasn't had much of a supporting cast, but They're going to need bounce back years from Giroux and Voracek. Simmonds will most likely be traded over the next 2 years anyways because I can't see him not wanting a nice raise. And because of his age, we can't afford that. Giroux and Voracek will be very hard for us to move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 17 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Simmonds will most likely be traded over the next 2 years anyways because I can't see him not wanting a nice raise. And because of his age, we can't afford that. Giroux and Voracek will be very hard for us to move Pretty much every single unmoveable contract in the entire NHL has been moved. Giroux and Voracek are both still very good players. If Hextall wanted to trade either, I'm pretty confident he could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 45 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Pretty much every single unmoveable contract in the entire NHL has been moved. Giroux and Voracek are both still very good players. If Hextall wanted to trade either, I'm pretty confident he could. They definitely could be moved -- easily in fact. The challenge is in the return we'd get. I have a hard believing we would get enough of a return to justify such trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 2 hours ago, RJ8812 said: Simmonds will most likely be traded over the next 2 years anyways because I can't see him not wanting a nice raise. Oh dear God and we thought the crying about trading Schenn was bad.....and i was ok with it but when it comes to trading their heart and soul as well as their leading goal scorer from the last 4 years i feel much different about it. So it would have to be a helluva a haul to make me want to do that...i just can't say for sure right no how i feel about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 2 hours ago, elmatus said: They definitely could be moved -- easily in fact. The challenge is in the return we'd get. I have a hard believing we would get enough of a return to justify such trades. If a team thought they were a #1 centre or a top line RW away from being a contender, there's not many teams willing to give up something like that. So you'd better be ready to pay for it. Any trade for those pieces that doesn't look good for both teams shouldn't be done. I'm not dealing them just for the sake of it. Simmonds would be an easy deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Simmonds would be an easy deal. Really?? Do tell how that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: If a team thought they were a #1 centre or a top line RW away from being a contender, there's not many teams willing to give up something like that. So you'd better be ready to pay for it. Any trade for those pieces that doesn't look good for both teams shouldn't be done. I'm not dealing them just for the sake of it. I hear you, and you're not wrong. The challenge is that obtaining a suitable return for those guys would be exceedingly difficult. I have a very hard time thinking of any current team making a decent trade of this nature. Nothing is impossible, but I can't picture it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Really?? Do tell how that is? You don't think pretty well any team in the league would want him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 22 minutes ago, elmatus said: I hear you, and you're not wrong. The challenge is that obtaining a suitable return for those guys would be exceedingly difficult. I have a very hard time thinking of any current team making a decent trade of this nature. Nothing is impossible, but I can't picture it. I agree it wouldn't be easy. Hextall would need to get something really good to save face on a deal for either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: Oh dear God and we thought the crying about trading Schenn was bad.....and i was ok with it but when it comes to trading their heart and soul as well as their leading goal scorer from the last 4 years i feel much different about it. So it would have to be a helluva a haul to make me want to do that...i just can't say for sure right no how i feel about that... Simmonds will definitely bring in a nice haul. But let's face it, with the way this team is being built, the core of this team will be Provorov and Nolan and everyone else around that age group. Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds will be too old and expensive to keep around. I expect at least 2 of them to be gone over the next 2-3 years. Likely Simmonds and Voracek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Simmonds will be the easiest one to move. Contending teams will be lining up to get him if we put him on the block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 9 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: You don't think pretty well any team in the league would want him? Yeah. Including the Flyers.....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Simmonds will be the easiest one to move. Contending teams will be lining up to get him if we put him on the block Yeah no disputing that. But let's not forget he has lead them in goals almost since he has been in Philly...so even more goals lost to overcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 3 hours ago, elmatus said: They definitely could be moved -- easily in fact. The challenge is in the return we'd get. I have a hard believing we would get enough of a return to justify such trades. absolutely.... I do believe Hextall could move either player but it would be more of a salary dump on the Flyers side. I don't see anyone taking on those contracts while providing a haul to the Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 However it would give us a break from talking about this guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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