flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 56 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Yeah. Including the Flyers.....right? LOL...sure. I'm not saying get rid of Simmonds...I just said he'd easily be tradeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 50 minutes ago, murraycraven said: absolutely.... I do believe Hextall could move either player but it would be more of a salary dump on the Flyers side. I don't see anyone taking on those contracts while providing a haul to the Flyers. Giroux AND Voracek are too good to be "salary dumps". There are plenty of teams that would love to have either of those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 50 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: However it would give us a break from talking about this guy... Who's he again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 12 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Giroux AND Voracek are too good to be "salary dumps". There are plenty of teams that would love to have either of those two. Not if they're only putting up 55 points a season at their price tag and trending downwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Not if they're only putting up 55 points a season at their price tag and trending downwards Why is that the end of the world? Toews is coming off of back to back 58 point season and banking 10.5 mill...just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 41 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Giroux AND Voracek are too good to be "salary dumps". There are plenty of teams that would love to have either of those two. not saying teams would not want them - they absolutely would. But, I don't think you are going to get a return that would make the deal worth it frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Not if they're only putting up 55 points a season at their price tag and trending downwards Pretty sure there's a possible rebound with a healthy Giroux and a bit more depth surrounding both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 9 minutes ago, murraycraven said: not saying teams would not want them - they absolutely would. But, I don't think you are going to get a return that would make the deal worth it frankly. Depends....IF someone thinks they're really cup contenders and they are missing that one piece.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Just now, flyercanuck said: Depends....IF someone thinks they're really cup contenders and they are missing that one piece.... true. my hope is that it does not come to this - lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Just now, murraycraven said: true. my hope is that it does not come to this - lol. Again...I'm only trading any of them if someone blows the doors off with an offer. I'm not trying to dump any one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: Why is that the end of the world? Toews is coming off of back to back 58 point season and banking 10.5 mill...just saying... Yeah and that's even worse.... Just because someone else out there has a worse contract than Giroux, doesn't make Girouxs any better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Pretty sure there's a possible rebound with a healthy Giroux and a bit more depth surrounding both. Of course but at this point that's what we are hoping happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Just now, RJ8812 said: Yeah and that's even worse.... Just because someone else out there has a worse contract than Giroux, doesn't make Girouxs any better Well it's not like he can't have a great season this coming year. Guess we'll see soon. Till then i'm not worried about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 My take on G....he is about to become the first ever 8 million dollar forward to NOT surpass the 50 point threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 hour ago, jammer2 said: My take on G....he is about to become the first ever 8 million dollar forward to NOT surpass the 50 point threshold. I wouldn't be so quick to say that. I have a sneaking suspicion we will see a 60-70 pt season out of him this year. Is that worth 8mil? I personally don't think so, but it definitely makes him a very valuable player. I worry more about Voracek for sure. I've always had trouble with his contract. A return to form from Giroux would likely mean an uptick in his production as well of course, but I still think he's considerably overpaid for his skill level and what he brings to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, elmatus said: I worry more about Voracek for sure. I've always had trouble with his contract. #HexyFail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 hour ago, jammer2 said: My take on G....he is about to become the first ever 8 million dollar forward to NOT surpass the 50 point threshold. If that is the case Hextall better have a Plan B for this organization... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, murraycraven said: #HexyFail I'm willing to give Voracek another season to show his true worth, but it's entirely possible you're right about that. It's not like he's been dismal or anything. I just don't feel his skill set is the type that can carry a team to a win. At 8 million, that's what I expect to get. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy, so the price tag seems steep to me. To be fair, he's not super far off from that level of play. Imo, he should be watching tapes of Jagr and working on his boardplay for one. Raffl is very good at this and could help him out. He also either needs to really work on his o-zone entry stickhandling or just stop trying to power through the entire opposing line to bring the puck in (likely the more preferable option). On that last point, having a more mobile, smart, and skilled defense could stand to help tons. Provo is a prototype here. More Provos please. All of the Provos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, elmatus said: To be fair, he's not super far off from that level of play. Imo, he should be watching tapes of Jagr and working on his boardplay for one. Jagr is the true master of shielding an opponent from the puck with his body. His huge frame helps, but little guys are proficient at it also, take Ryan Ellis for instance, he was good at this even as a very slim 16 year old. G gets to fancy and tries to stickhandle out of the situation when sometimes it requires patience. Perhaps this is a part of the reason for his brutal 5x5 numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 21 minutes ago, elmatus said: I wouldn't be so quick to say that. I have a sneaking suspicion we will see a 60-70 pt season out of him this year. Is that worth 8mil? I personally don't think so, but it definitely makes him a very valuable player. Well, a lot of G's production is dependant on the pp. Who will replace Schenn on the top unit? WIll they have chemistry? All questions that will directly tie into G's numbers. Basically, he's an 8 mill pp specialist....which is tough to digest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, jammer2 said: Jagr is the true master of shielding an opponent from the puck with his body. His huge frame helps, but little guys are proficient at it also, take Ryan Ellis for instance, he was good at this even as a very slim 16 year old. G gets to fancy and tries to stickhandle out of the situation when sometimes it requires patience. Perhaps this is a part of the reason for his brutal 5x5 numbers? Absolutely. The difference between Giroux and Voracek is that Giroux used to be quite good at this part of the game. Players who can manage to dangle and outsmart several opponents to open up the ice for teammates are extremely valuable commodities. He used to have that ability not so long ago. That's why I'm willing to be more lenient with Giroux. It's also why I can see him bouncing back, though I'm not sure we'll ever get 80-90 pt production out of him again. Voracek on the other hand has never managed to be that guy, despite trying very hard the last couple seasons in particular. He does have a similar frame to Jagr, and back when Jagr was on the team, it almost seemed like Voracek was trying to emulate him to an extent. I remember thinking it seemed to suit him well, which is why I'd like to see him go back to that. 5 minutes ago, jammer2 said: Well, a lot of G's production is dependant on the pp. Who will replace Schenn on the top unit? WIll they have chemistry? All questions that will directly tie into G's numbers. Basically, he's an 8 mill pp specialist....which is tough to digest. I've mentioned this before, but I really don't think Schenn's production had so much to do with Schenn. Yeah, he's a darn good opportunist. He was good at profiting from the hard work of G/V/G and their far superior talents. To me, that type of role should be replaceable by someone else. Obviously it's hard to say right now, but a number of our upcoming rookies may very possibly play such a role. Also, Knoblauch (I always get his name wrong) may very well completely revamp the PP. I imagine they'll still need a solid shooter, but the role may prove to be much different than what Schenn was doing last season. Either way, the role Schenn played on the pp is the most easily replaced imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/22/2017 at 6:05 PM, Howie58 said: Greetings: If you recall a few weeks back I posted that Giroux's performance was one of the five big questions heading into next year. Here is a take on that from CSN: http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/end-end-state-claude-giroux?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo&yptr=yahoo I hope the consensus is right, that we get a "stabilized" Giroux who is helped by some newcomers. The possible move to wing--interesting. Yikes...14 goals...that's a pisser. I hope we see more this year. Howie I was listening to Broad Street's podcast yesterday and Charlie O made an interesting point, which is that Giroux and Jake seem to perform slightly better at even strength when they're not together. Rationalizing this (and this makes sense to me) is the idea that Jake and G have both receded to mostly being play makers and there's no one on their line to finish (Raffl's silky mits notwithstanding). Conversely, Jake does better when paired with Couturier. For most of us, Jake and G have been a given. What if we gave Giroux Filppula on the left and Konecny on the right? Or Lindblom and Simmonds? I kinda really really like the idea of Weal Couturier and Voracek, but Patrick's got a hell of a slick shot. Why not let Jake be the Vet to play along side Patrick? Filppula Patrick Voracek? Camp will tell all, but I'm wondering if 2/3 of what we've been thinking about the top 6 is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 27 minutes ago, elmatus said: Absolutely. The difference between Giroux and Voracek is that Giroux used to be quite good at this part of the game. Players who can manage to dangle and outsmart several opponents to open up the ice for teammates are extremely valuable commodities. He used to have that ability not so long ago. That's why I'm willing to be more lenient with Giroux. It's also why I can see him bouncing back, though I'm not sure we'll ever get 80-90 pt production out of him again. Voracek on the other hand has never managed to be that guy, despite trying very hard the last couple seasons in particular. He does have a similar frame to Jagr, and back when Jagr was on the team, it almost seemed like Voracek was trying to emulate him to an extent. I remember thinking it seemed to suit him well, which is why I'd like to see him go back to that. I've mentioned this before, but I really don't think Schenn's production had so much to do with Schenn. Yeah, he's a darn good opportunist. He was good at profiting from the hard work of G/V/G and their far superior talents. To me, that type of role should be replaceable by someone else. Obviously it's hard to say right now, but a number of our upcoming rookies may very possibly play such a role. Also, Knoblauch (I always get his name wrong) may very well completely revamp the PP. I imagine they'll still need a solid shooter, but the role may prove to be much different than what Schenn was doing last season. Either way, the role Schenn played on the pp is the most easily replaced imo. The biggest difference between when Jagr on the team and the years since (besides Jagr not being on the team) is the backwards coaching of Chief followed by defensively handcuffed Hakstol era (I believe we have yet to see the game Hakstol wants to skate, and therefore reserve judgement). Could it be that Jake's just been coached not to play that game? Seems like the kind of thing Laviolette would have been more fond of anyway. I agree on Schenn's production and his place on the PP. Add to that the fact that he was pretty much a liability at 5 on 5. He was tenacious and a good puck battler on the PK though... hopefully the likes of Weal or Lindblom or Konecny can also play that way on a unit with Jake, G, Simmer and Ghost and we wont' miss him much. Long story short, if St. Louis finds a good place for Schenn and he produces here and the Flyers don't suffer too badly on the PP without him, I'll be happy for everyone. But let's nip this "The Blues Won The Trade" or "We Won The Trade" crap in the bud now. If Schenn scores 30 goals with the blues, that won't mean the Flyers blew it. It'll mean the blues are better suited for Schenn. And we won't know how the Flyers made out for at least two years, probably 3 when the 2nd of the two first rounders is close to being at least an AHL player and Lehtera is safely off the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 48 minutes ago, elmatus said: I've mentioned this before, but I really don't think Schenn's production had so much to do with Schenn. Yeah, he's a darn good opportunist. He was good at profiting from the hard work of G/V/G and their far superior talents. To me, that type of role should be replaceable by someone else. Obviously it's hard to say right now, but a number of our upcoming rookies may very possibly play such a role. Also, Knoblauch (I always get his name wrong) may very well completely revamp the PP. I imagine they'll still need a solid shooter, but the role may prove to be much different than what Schenn was doing last season. Either way, the role Schenn played on the pp is the most easily replaced imo. I agree about Schenn, he is the type of guy to live off others hard work. Whoever replaces him should be better at the vision/thinking part of the game, which in theory should make the pp more effective. We will have Provs and Ghost a year older and wiser, which should help. Knoblauch will probably revamp the way the top pp works, so in a way exciting, but when you are talking about G's production, new players, new coach....a lot of variables changing in his bread and butter part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 5 hours ago, jammer2 said: but when you are talking about G's production Wow speaking of his production. Giroux puts up 14 goals and gets roasted not stop here...Ryan Johnson just signed an 8 year 64 mill deal (8mill AAV) after posting back to back 14 goals seasons....sheesh!!!!!! #justsaying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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