Flyers to Retire Lindros' 88

[AJgoal]

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-to-retire-no-88-jersey-of-eric-lindros--philadelphia-flyers/c-290779804

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-to-retire-no-88-jersey-of-eric-lindros--philadelphia-flyers/c-290779804

 

Awesome news.

 

He is the guy who lured me to hockey back in the early 90's....and still despite all that happen to him is my favorite Flyers of all time.

 

If only he could have stay healthy.

[vis]

Well-deserved.  Truly a dominant player in his prime.  Glad that bridge has been somewhat rebuilt.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Well-deserved.  Truly a dominant player in his prime.  Glad that bridge has been somewhat rebuilt.

 

 

I still believe that if Bobby Clarke had not been the President and later GM, and had he been handled in the manner we are used to seeing young supserstars handled now, Lindros would have had a long career and would now be heralded as one of the great all time players.

 

 

[Illflyaway]

Awesome news indeed.  The one player who hooked me onto the Flyers and who almost carried them to the Holy Grail.  

[murraycraven]

awesome news....   

 

he was the most dominant player I have seen when he was in his prime.   He had every tool in the bag when on the ice...   I would kill to see the Big E take a face-off against Cindy and use the classic Big E bull rush technique...   Guy was an amazing player to watch.

 

Another note:   you can expect the Flyers to lose the game that night.  For whatever reason it feels like the Flyers shart the bed whenever there is a pregame ceremony.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, murraycraven said:

awesome news....   

 

he was the most dominant player I have seen when he was in his prime.   He had every tool in the bag when on the ice...   I would kill to see the Big E take a face-off against Cindy and use the classic Big E bull rush technique...   Guy was an amazing player to watch.

 

Another note:   you can expect the Flyers to lose the game that night.  For whatever reason it feels like the Flyers shart the bed whenever there is a pregame ceremony.

 

I'd really like to see Lindros, Primeau, Recchi, Roenick and Pronger Partner with the Flyers and maybe Wounded Warriors to create a brain Trauma charity event.  Maybe not on the scale of the Carnival, but big.  

 

Seems only right.

[ruxpin]

47 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

He had every tool in the bag when on the ice...  

 

Except for skating with his head up.

 

C'mon, some schmuck was going to stay it.

[RJ8812]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

 

I still believe that if Bobby Clarke had not been the President and later GM, and had he been handled in the manner we are used to seeing young supserstars handled now, Lindros would have had a long career and would now be heralded as one of the great all time players.

 

 

And all the new rules protecting star players as well as contact to the head 

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

And all the new rules protecting star players as well as contact to the head 

 

It was a different age in which targeting a player like Lindros was tolerated and in fact viewed as his fault for not protecting himself.

 

The league has changed dramatically so much so that players like Gudas are suspended for clean hits against much less important players.  

 

At the same time, in the 80's if you took a run like that at Gretzky or Lemieux, you'd have had to answer for it and you'd have been ostracized by the league in general.   

 

It was somehow the fact that Lindros was so big and could bull doze through defenses himself that it gave the league officials and offices justification to look the other way when guys like Kasparitus would freight train him so ruthlessly.  

 

Additionally, I still believe that it was a combination of Lindros and the league wide adoption of "the Trap" defensive system that lead to the clutch and grab era that directly lead to rules changes that have completely limited contact in almost any form... just 10 years too late to help Eric or the Flyers out.

 

Eric because no one could slow him down without clutching and grabbing and "the Trap" because when the Devils showed a crappy team could win multiple cups playing it, everyone wanted to do it... the only problem was while the Devils were mostly under-talented, they had at least 2 pairings of experienced strong D men who could actually play the trap and most of the rest of the league didn't have a single pairing that could manage it without grotesquely clutching and grabbing.  

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Except for skating with his head up.

 

C'mon, some schmuck was going to stay it.

 

I thought he was going to say it in that post.  

 

Even so, if Eric played in today's league, he'd probably never have to learn to skate with his head up.  

[FD19372]

Great player, and totally deserving. Short, but dominant career. The whole Lindros era infuriates me to no end, however. Not for anything Eric did, but for the circus his parents created to some extent, the ineptitude and arrogance of Bob Clarke, (not Bobby Clarke who I LOVED and was of course one of my all-time favorite Flyers) and Ed Snider in their insistence that they should throw all of their money into that line, and not surround them with any at least decent scoring talent on offense, none who were in their prime for sure. In addition, not prioritizing goaltending whatsoever. MANAGEMENT blew it in that era, not Eric and the Legion of Doom. Plain and simple. They should have won the Cup in 2000, and had they had more scoring from other lines, would have - Devils or no Devils.

[King Knut]

Just now, FD19372 said:

Great player, and totally deserving. Short, but dominant career. The whole Lindros era infuriates me to no end, however. Not for anything Eric did, but for the circus his parents created to some extent, the ineptitude and arrogance of Bob Clarke, (not Bobby Clarke who I LOVED and was of course one of my all-time favorite Flyers) and Ed Snider in their insistence that they should throw all of their money into that line, and not surround them with any at least decent scoring talent on offense, none who were in their prime for sure. In addition, not prioritizing goaltending whatsoever. MANAGEMENT blew it in that era, not Eric and the Legion of Doom. Plain and simple. They should have won the Cup in 2000, and had they had more scoring from other lines, would have - Devils or no Devils.

 

 

Clarke and the Flyers totally enabled his parents.  Unless his parents said in 1994, "Get John LeClair and Mikael Renberg" in which case they should have listened to EVERY THING HIS PARENTS SAID from that point on.  

 

And I think they would have beaten the Devils in Game 6 that year had the time keeper not had such an itchy trigger finger.  Of course Hatcher may have been the one to ruin his career in the next round, but whatever.

 

 

 

 

[FD19372]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Clarke and the Flyers totally enabled his parents.  Unless his parents said in 1994, "Get John LeClair and Mikael Renberg" in which case they should have listened to EVERY THING HIS PARENTS SAID from that point on.  

 

And I think they would have beaten the Devils in Game 6 that year had the time keeper not had such an itchy trigger finger.  Of course Hatcher may have been the one to ruin his career in the next round, but whatever.

 

 

 

 

I'll take it a step further...they win that series if they sit Lindros - knowing Stevens's rep. Lindros was a target the second he stepped on the ice in that series, his head down or not. As great as he was, his return damaged team chemistry. The whole team, including the goaltending, imploded at that point.

[Claude Monet]

16 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I'll take it a step further...they win that series if they sit Lindros - knowing Stevens's rep. Lindros was a target the second he stepped on the ice in that series, his head down or not. As great as he was, his return damaged team chemistry. The whole team, including the goaltending, imploded at that point.

and putting him straight away on the top line with Gagne and Recci.  He should have been playing sheltered minutes on the 4th line away from the Stevens pairing.

[King Knut]

18 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I'll take it a step further...they win that series if they sit Lindros - knowing Stevens's rep. Lindros was a target the second he stepped on the ice in that series, his head down or not. As great as he was, his return damaged team chemistry. The whole team, including the goaltending, imploded at that point.

 

Oh to me that's an absolute given, totally.  

 

The Flyers were up 3-1 and riding high, but you had to know the Devils were going to pull out all the stops and win at least one more game.  Re-introducing Lindros to the lineup just shook up and confused a team that had build a completely effective dynamic without him. 

 

It wasn't just for Eric's sake that they should have held him out of that series. It was for the team and their chances of winning too.

 

Not only do you confuse and confound them, you're basically telling them, "yeah, you all can't get it done without this guy."

 

And it's all because the city has a deep seeded desperate need for a hero which overtakes it's need to win.  

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I thought he was going to say it in that post.  

 

Even so, if Eric played in today's league, he'd probably never have to learn to skate with his head up.  

Ain't that the truth! 

[ruxpin]

35 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I'll take it a step further...they win that series if they sit Lindros - knowing Stevens's rep. Lindros was a target the second he stepped on the ice in that series, his head down or not. As great as he was, his return damaged team chemistry. The whole team, including the goaltending, imploded at that point.

That's completely the way I remember. I was infuriated that they put him back in.  We probably missed out on a cup because of it. 

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

That's completely the way I remember. I was infuriated that they put him back in.  We probably missed out on a cup because of it. 

 

I remember the Phillies in the '93 playoff run.  

Kim Batiste made a throwing error that tied the game and sent it to extras, but then redeemed himself by hitting the game wining RBI.

And Philly Went NUTZ.  And I feel like that's us in a nutshell.  We want the unlikely hero.  We want someone to rise from the mire and save the day against insurmountable odds.  We'd rather that than just being good. 

 

I think it might be why the 2008 Phillies World Series winning team is already almost forgotten.  They were just good.  They were good for a long time.  There were no unlikely heroes.  Some great plays.  A key hit or two... but nothing outrageous and legendary.

 

For whatever reason, we love the drama.  

 

I like winning.  I'm kinda sick of the Drama.  

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

Except for skating with his head up.

 

C'mon, some schmuck was going to stay it.

 

Always that one guy @ruxpin.

 

Yeesh....    lol!

[ruxpin]

30 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I remember the Phillies in the '93 playoff run.  

Kim Batiste made a throwing error that tied the game and sent it to extras, but then redeemed himself by hitting the game wining RBI.

And Philly Went NUTZ.  And I feel like that's us in a nutshell.  We want the unlikely hero.  We want someone to rise from the mire and save the day against insurmountable odds.  We'd rather that than just being good. 

 

I think it might be why the 2008 Phillies World Series winning team is already almost forgotten.  They were just good.  They were good for a long time.  There were no unlikely heroes.  Some great plays.  A key hit or two... but nothing outrageous and legendary.

 

For whatever reason, we love the drama.  

 

I like winning.  I'm kinda sick of the Drama.  

I agree with what you said, but I'm having trouble bringing it back to the Devils series. Or was that entirely random and I wasn't supposed to? 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I agree with what you said, but I'm having trouble bringing it back to the Devils series. Or was that entirely random and I wasn't supposed to? 

 

Eric was the wounded semi-disgraced golden boy who'd had the captaincy stripped and who had been sufficiently muddied up by injury and crappy circumstances. The narrative was that he could come back and save the day for the desperate team on the ropes. Perfect for him to redeem himself. 

 

Like Roy Hobbs or Kirk Gibsen. 

 

In reality, some simple adjustments from Ramsey and fewer minutes for Adam friggin' Burt probably would have done the trick. 

 

The really frustrating part is the hero story almost worked.  He nearly won game 6 by himself despite them probably not needing him to if he hadn't played at all. 

 

[ruxpin]

56 minutes ago, King Knut said:

He nearly won game 6 by himself despite them probably not needing him to if he hadn't played at all. 

I think this is oddly accurate.  He almost won game 6 by himself because at that point no one really wanted to play with him. Putting him in there was a morale and chemistry killer. 

 

They win that series if he doesn't play. I've no idea what happens in the next round, but they win that series. 

 

Baptista or Bucky Dent or whomever aside.  This wasn't lunch pail worship. This was just freshman level chemistry. 

 

By the way, I remember the 2008 Phillies team quite fondly. It was really fun going into the playoffs feeling like we were supposed to win.  I also remember how an entirely inept GM dismantled it and pissed away what could have been a legitimate dynasty. I think many forget it not because of the hero vs. Unexpected average Joe thing. They just have a hard time juxtaposing that successful team with the abortion that's been wearing the same logo the last 5 years or so. 

[King Knut]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I think this is oddly accurate.  He almost won game 6 by himself because at that point no one really wanted to play with him. Putting him in there was a morale and chemistry killer. 

 

They win that series if he doesn't play. I've no idea what happens in the next round, but they win that series. 

 

Baptista or Bucky Dent or whomever aside.  This wasn't lunch pail worship. This was just freshman level chemistry. 

 

By the way, I remember the 2008 Phillies team quite fondly. It was really fun going into the playoffs feeling like we were supposed to win.  I also remember how an entirely inept GM dismantled it and pissed away what could have been a legitimate dynasty. I think many forget it not because of the hero vs. Unexpected average Joe thing. They just have a hard time juxtaposing that successful team with the abortion that's been wearing the same logo the last 5 years or so. 

 

Indont want to get into the phillies, because I  don't disagree.  I just don't know if I'd say dynasty.  At least two more for sure were easily achievable.  

 

Problem was more injuries to me to me than anything but not that they happened, more how the organization handled them... kept trying to squeeze Howard and Chase back into the lineup despite clearly needing time. 

 

And I can tell you that the cortisone shots definitely helped lead to Howard's Achilles tear that ruined his career.  Let him heal naturally out of the lineup and that doesn't happen and he's still bashing 25 hrs and hitting 240 or so.   The rest I won't get into but the injuries are relevant because that's exactly what happened to Rayzor and his hip in 2010 and similar to what happened to Lindros (minus the cortisone which does nothing for a concussion) in 2000. 

 

Let the dude heal, because as you say, the team was winning without him. 

[vis]

19 hours ago, King Knut said:

I still believe that if Bobby Clarke had not been the President and later GM, and had he been handled in the manner we are used to seeing young supserstars handled now, Lindros would have had a long career and would now be heralded as one of the great all time players.

I think he is being heralded as one of the great all time players.  His induction into the HHOF and the Flyers HOF and the retirement of his number attest to that.

 

I don't know if Clarke's role had much to do with the longevity of his career.  Unless you mean Lindros' career in Philly, in which case I would agree that absent his strained relationship with Clarke (and the organization in general), Lindros probably would never have left.  However, I don't think it is one-sided.  The Lindros family deserves some blame for the deterioration in the relationship, though I do think Clarke fueled the flames a little higher on several occasions.  

 

In terms of overall longevity, Lindros was plagued by concussions throughout his career as was his younger brother (which forced him to retire at a young age).  Some of that is because of how he played the game.  However, I place a lot of blame on the NHL for not reeling in headshots and other dirty hits.  The 90s and early 2000s were ridiculous in terms of the nastiness of the game and the unwillingness of the NHL to reign it in.  I like tough hockey, but deliberate headshots are terrible and have no part in the game.  Never liked the "keep your head up" argument when it comes to deliberate headshots.

 

I do think Lindros felt pressure to come back from injuries quicker and perhaps he didn't fully recover from a few of them, in which case perhaps the Flyers organization - and hockey culture in general - can be blamed.  In any event, the NHL and NFL have a lot of problems with potential concussion lawsuits and other fallout.  It's not just limited to one player or an organization.

 

The Lindros saga has a lot of elements to it.  Just a sad situation all the way around - and it started even before he became an NHL player.