Trading Simmonds

[elmatus]

There's a decent possible title for Hextall's eventual memoirs.

 

It's been mentioned here aplenty that our beloved Simmer is nearing the end of his remarkably affordable contract. He will be 30 by the end of it, and as it has also been mentioned, 30+ year old grinder-types generally don't pot 35 goals a season until they're 35. Barring some sort of precipitous decline in production this season and next, there is good reason to believe his next contract will not be nearly as cap friendly. It will likely also turn out to be a problem by the end of its term, whatever that may be.

 

All that said, his current value to an actual contending team would stand to be quite substantial. Add a Simmer to a Dallas or Nashville or [retracted due to mouth-vomit-taste], and he would make for one hell of boost to a cup run. As a trade chip, the return on Trading Simmonds(TM) could stand to be quite substantial as well. For a team like the Flyers who have loads of talent coming in over the next 2-3 years, a trade like this could add even more to the pipeline and bolster even further the rise to potential contention.

 

Of course, we all love Simmer. Who wouldn't love Simmer. For many of us, a trade like this would be bittersweet. I also have no doubt we'd be chattering for days on whether the return was ever good enough. So, why not kickstart that discussion prematurely? What would the return have to be for Simmer for you to consider it? Are there any teams who could offer such a package?

[murraycraven]

This is the magic question surrounding the Flyers these days.  I absolutely love Simmonds and would love to see him hang up his skates as a Flyer.   I am just not sure the Flyers are going to want to be in a position of paying out another large contract to someone that likely will be on the decline.   I think Simmonds still has a few years of really good hockey in him but no one beats father time (Jagr maybe).   

 

It is going to be really interesting to see how this plays out.   His current contract is so undervalued that I think he would want one last final payday.   If he is looking for a big deal I am just not sure it makes sense for the Flyers to sign him long term.   I hate saying that but if G and Jake are 8M players to the Flyers what is Simmonds?   

 

I would HATE to see him go but I also understand Hextall has to look at the long term.   As for what Simmonds would get in a trade?   It would have to be a haul... yet, I have no idea what that is...

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

It would have to be a haul...

 

 

I agree it would have to be to consider moving him this year.

 

So with hi traded it could look like this.

 

Weal-Giroux-Voracek

Lindblom-Patrick-Konecny

Filppula-Coots-Read

Laughton-Lehtera-Raffl/Weise

 

Vecchione could start on the Phantoms.

 

And they would have right at 9 mill in cap space to do something with.

 

Damn i would hate to move him.

 

[Jam1986]

It is just business! Would try to deal at trade line if out of playoffs  or at draft. Would bring in a nice catch and we are at least 2yrs out. Also throw G and Jake on that bus too!! Will say this these deal in NHL are out of hand paying to much.

[FD19372]

If this team isn't in contention toward the end of the year, and we can find a playoff team that Simmonds can go to, I think that option needs to be explored. This team needs a legit sniper badly. If we could get one for him, we should try. He is one of the few good players on this team that doesn't have an albatross of a contract.

[ruxpin]

In the last couple of years, what would be the comparable?   I mean league-wide.

 

Pretending we're trading a 29-year old Simmonds on his way to another 30 goal season.

 

I mean we just got 2 first-rounders for Brayden Schenn.  He's a couple years younger but doesn't have the resume.    We got a young defenseman and a 1st and a 3rd from Tampa for Coburn.   I hesitate to compare defenseman and winger.

 

Stepan AND a goalie got A 1st rounder and a defenseman.   Similar age, but Simmonds frankly has a better resume.

 

So anyone with a good comparable?   What are we talking, 2 first rounders and a 22-year old?

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

There's another thread for this and I probably shouldn't mention it here, but the Pasta thing makes sense as it relates to Simmonds.

 

Boston gets similar production but cheaper and at a term they might be able to stomach.

They need defense, so I wonder if they'd take Gudas (another player I'm not in a hurry to deal).

 

We get Pasta on a sign and trade, and a 1st round pick.

 

Gudas + Simmonds gets you $8.25M to work with for Pasta and we come away with another 1st round pick.

Meanwhile, Gudas' roster spot becomes open for another rookie.   God help our goalies this year, but whatever.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, murraycraven said:

"there orange smoke from vorhees means a new whipping boy has been appointed" - mojo1917    

 

I still love that line!

 

@mojo1917

[murraycraven]

14 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I still love that line!

 

it is some of the funniest and truest lines to be ever written on this board....

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

There's a decent possible title for Hextall's eventual memoirs.

 

It's been mentioned here aplenty that our beloved Simmer is nearing the end of his remarkably affordable contract. He will be 30 by the end of it, and as it has also been mentioned, 30+ year old grinder-types generally don't pot 35 goals a season until they're 35. Barring some sort of precipitous decline in production this season and next, there is good reason to believe his next contract will not be nearly as cap friendly. It will likely also turn out to be a problem by the end of its term, whatever that may be.

 

All that said, his current value to an actual contending team would stand to be quite substantial. Add a Simmer to a Dallas or Nashville or [retracted due to mouth-vomit-taste], and he would make for one hell of boost to a cup run. As a trade chip, the return on Trading Simmonds(TM) could stand to be quite substantial as well. For a team like the Flyers who have loads of talent coming in over the next 2-3 years, a trade like this could add even more to the pipeline and bolster even further the rise to potential contention.

 

Of course, we all love Simmer. Who wouldn't love Simmer. For many of us, a trade like this would be bittersweet. I also have no doubt we'd be chattering for days on whether the return was ever good enough. So, why not kickstart that discussion prematurely? What would the return have to be for Simmer for you to consider it? Are there any teams who could offer such a package?

 

To me it's all about how much of a contender the Flyers are between now and the deadline in question.  Most here seem to think a cup run is more than two years away, but I think there's an outside shot (mostly if Morin and Hagg work out) that it could be an outside possibility before Simmer leaves.  In which case we'd be the team looking to add him for the cup run and wouldn't have to give up anything for him.

 

Hextall will have to talk to his agent a lot this year and get a grasp of what they're thinking.  The long story short is that I like Simmonds enough that I want him to get the pay day he deserves, even if it's not here.  If Simmonds believes in this team enough that he's willing to take a pay cut or a shorter duration of contract to stay here and try to win a cup with us... then I don't know what to say other than to start sculpting his statue now.  Either way, I agree that Hextall just has to refuse to pay him what the open market probably will be willing to give him.  It's what's best for the team.

 

What to get in return?  I think if we got two firsts and a player for Schenn we should get at least that much for Simmonds.  

This came up in the Pastrnak thread as I'm sure you're aware.  If a team out there has a guy like Pastrnak was two years ago who's on the verge of the next level but that won't be as beneficial to winning a cup right now the way Simmonds would be, then I'd trade for him and a pick.  

 

Realistically that's what teams would be offering.  

 

Of course if Toronto calls and wants to give us Matthews for Simmer and Ghost or something, I'd take that call... but back in the real world, it's going to take at least two firsts plus something else or a Blue chip prospect and a first.  

 

 

[King Knut]

24 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

There's another thread for this and I probably shouldn't mention it here, but the Pasta thing makes sense as it relates to Simmonds.

 

Boston gets similar production but cheaper and at a term they might be able to stomach.

They need defense, so I wonder if they'd take Gudas (another player I'm not in a hurry to deal).

 

We get Pasta on a sign and trade, and a 1st round pick.

 

Gudas + Simmonds gets you $8.25M to work with for Pasta and we come away with another 1st round pick.

Meanwhile, Gudas' roster spot becomes open for another rookie.   God help our goalies this year, but whatever.

 

I just don't see Boston doing that, but if they want to, pull the trigger now.  

[ruxpin]

Just now, King Knut said:

 

I just don't see Boston doing that, but if they want to, pull the trigger now.  

 

Yep, that's the kicker.  There's always another team involved!

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Yep, that's the kicker.  There's always another team involved!

 

I think the hype around Pastrnak being traded at all is just that.  I don't think it's even a remote possibility.  

 

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I just don't see Boston doing that, but if they want to, pull the trigger now.  

 

You know, Flyers/Bruins really don't work at all, do they?

 

I keep trying to match Flyer salary with what Pastrnak will get rather than what he's had or even what the Bruins might think they want to spend.   My "deal" had $8.25M going to Boston.  I think you've mentioned--and you're right--that if they were willing to spend $8.25, why not just spend it on Pastrnak?

 

So, we'd likely be bringing back at least $4.5M in any deal, and I don't see how we do that and sign people coming up.   So, I guess kill this and move on.  

 

But like I asked above:  What are we realistically looking at in a trade involving Simmonds?  I don't know, as I can't find a suitable comparable.

[vis]

At a minimum, they need to get a young, top 6 forward.  I want an NHL player over picks.  But it's not like those types of players grow on trees and are readily available.  The young players likely to be available either (i) have not lived up to expectations or has started to disappoint and therefore come with some baggage, or (ii) are likely to command a big salary in their next contract.  And you're likely only dealing with teams with Stanley Cup aspirations or perhaps a bad team that has a surplus of young players but that is in need of veteran leadership.  So where does that land Simmonds?  What would the Flyers have to give up something in addition to Simmonds in order to get that kind of return?

 

To me, trading him (and more) for Pastrnak makes sense because it checks the boxes above.

 

In any event, in order to maximize value, Simmonds has to be traded this season at the deadline.  The draft is the next best time.  Next season, things get really dicey and the return will likely be less.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

You know, Flyers/Bruins really don't work at all, do they?

 

I keep trying to match Flyer salary with what Pastrnak will get rather than what he's had or even what the Bruins might think they want to spend.   My "deal" had $8.25M going to Boston.  I think you've mentioned--and you're right--that if they were willing to spend $8.25, why not just spend it on Pastrnak?

 

So, we'd likely be bringing back at least $4.5M in any deal, and I don't see how we do that and sign people coming up.   So, I guess kill this and move on.  

 

But like I asked above:  What are we realistically looking at in a trade involving Simmonds?  I don't know, as I can't find a suitable comparable.

 

I think it's realistically like two firsts and a player or a solid prospect and a first.  

 

As as far as comparable, I'm putting it between what the blues gave us for Schenn and what we gave the ducks for Pronger. 

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, vis said:

At a minimum, they need to get a young, top 6 forward.  I want an NHL player over picks.  But it's not like those types of players grow on trees and are readily available.  The young players likely to be available either (i) have not lived up to expectations or has started to disappoint and therefore come with some baggage, or (ii) are likely to command a big salary in their next contract.  And you're likely only dealing with teams with Stanley Cup aspirations or perhaps a bad team that has a surplus of young players but that is in need of veteran leadership.  So where does that land Simmonds?  What would the Flyers have to give up something in addition to Simmonds in order to get that kind of return?

 

To me, trading him (and more) for Pastrnak makes sense because it checks the boxes above.

 

In any event, in order to maximize value, Simmonds has to be traded this season at the deadline.  The draft is the next best time.  Next season, things get really dicey and the return will likely be less.

 

I'd try for Simmonds and a pick but they'll want a d man and I don't know where that leaves us because they won't want Gudas. They'll want one of the ines we don't want to give up. 

[vis]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think you've mentioned--and you're right--that if they were willing to spend $8.25, why not just spend it on Pastrnak?

With Pastrnak, Boston would be spending all that money on one player.  And I think they have a hard time justifying paying Pastrnak more than Marchand/Bergeron.  And then there is term.  None of those things would be issues if they got Simmonds+ in return, though I suppose they have to worry about Simmonds next contract if they want him longer term.  Truth is, they have an aging forward group and barely have an open window to make a run.  They might just go all-in to take a run in the next couple of years and then blow it up if things don't work out, or they could resign Simmonds with Chara's $$$.

[vis]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'd try for Simmonds and a pick but they'll want a d man and I don't know where that leaves us because they won't want Gudas. They'll want one of the ines we don't want to give up. 

Would you give up Morin if that's what they wanted?

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Would you give up Morin if that's what they wanted?

 

I'd think long and hard.  From their end, they could perceive him as a replacement for Chara.

I think he might be a replacement for Gudas.  I don't know.

 

Are we talking Simmonds + Morin for Pastrnak + pick?   It would have to be a good pick, and then I'd still have to think about it.  I lean to "do it," though.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, vis said:

Would you give up Morin if that's what they wanted?

 

I really don't think I would.  

 

I don't have the insight and perspective on these guys that the management does, but in some ways Morin and Hagg are what the team needs immediately more than Sanheim or Myers.  

 

We'll be happy to have all 4 of them in two years I suspect.  

 

The other thing that I've been thinking that makes this make even a LITTLE bit of sense for Boston is that if they get Simmonds now, they get their shot at the cup this year and if it's not looking 100% solid the next year, then THEY'RE the ones looking at the deadline haul for Wayne which is an asset unto it's own.  

 

I'd consider if it's Ghost (mostly because I'm not certain the brass will let Ghost be Ghost this year and if they don't then what's the point?) and I pull the trigger outright if it's St. Louis' first.  

 

Word is that Boston offered Pastrnak 6 million, but the duration is uncertain.  That was two days ago.

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, vis said:

I think they have a hard time justifying paying Pastrnak more than Marchand/Bergeron.  

 

I don't know.  The Flyers didn't really care about paying Couturier and Schenn more than Simmonds and Wayne didn't seem to care much either.  

 

Marchand and Bergeron signed their deals before this.  Different times.  Different circumstances.  If they don't sign the kid because it'll ruffle the feathers of their older stars for the team to do what it takes to secure the team's future, then that organization is truly doomed.  No skin off my nose if they are... bully for us if we can take advantage of it.

 

I just don't see it was a factor.  For whatever reason Boston just isn't sold on the kid to straight up give him what he's asking for at 21 years of age.  But I think they're committed to keeping him.  They probably just prefer a 5 million dollar bridge deal to get him through to the end of Krejci and Backes' deals before they give him the big long pay out.  

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'd think long and hard.  From their end, they could perceive him as a replacement for Chara.

I think he might be a replacement for Gudas.  I don't know.

 

Are we talking Simmonds + Morin for Pastrnak + pick?   It would have to be a good pick, and then I'd still have to think about it.  I lean to "do it," though.

 

What kind of a pick?  

And I'm just not sure I do it even if it's a first.  Not unless they REALLY REALLY love Myers and Friedman.  

 

As I see it, this team needs Morin and Hagg.  They're not interchangeable.  You'd want both moving forward.  At a certain point, they're going to have too many D men to play (but Gudas and Mac will be gone in a few years) but no matter what happens with Sanheim and Myers and Ghost, they're still going to need guys like Morin and Hagg to balance out the pairings, or else you'll up with what we had last year where the back end can't handle itself.

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

54 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

What kind of a pick?  

And I'm just not sure I do it even if it's a first.  Not unless they REALLY REALLY love Myers and Friedman.  

 

As I see it, this team needs Morin and Hagg.  They're not interchangeable.  You'd want both moving forward.  At a certain point, they're going to have too many D men to play (but Gudas and Mac will be gone in a few years) but no matter what happens with Sanheim and Myers and Ghost, they're still going to need guys like Morin and Hagg to balance out the pairings, or else you'll up with what we had last year where the back end can't handle itself.

 

 

 

Yeah, i can't disagree with any of that. You make that pick a first rounder or even a prospect (I haven't looked at what they have and don't know) and I grow tempted.  

 

I know some of this is the well-ingrained Flyer fan "ooh Shiney" syndrome. 

 

All this and I don't actually want to trade Simmonds.  But I agree with those who say it's not if but when. 

[vis]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

I don't have the insight and perspective on these guys that the management does, but in some ways Morin and Hagg are what the team needs immediately more than Sanheim or Myers. 

Yes, it would be harder for me to part with Morin because he brings an element that the Flyers do not have.  I could be OK with parting with Ghost because he is somewhat redundant, but they would have to get more than Pastrnak back.