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pilldoc

The Dreaded Offside Rule ......

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Offsides.png.jpg

 

So since the Flyers just got burned by it last night ..... here is a topic for discussion.

 

Found this gem of an article from a few months ago.

 

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Is it time to eliminate the offside rule?

Edited by TropicalFruitGirl26
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11 hours ago, pilldoc said:

So since the Flyers just got burned by it last night ..... here is a topic for discussion.

 

Found this gem of an article from a few months ago.

 

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

Is it time to eliminate the offside rule?

 

 

I have to admit it is a very interesting idea.

 

In fact back in the 90's when my roomate and i played NHL hockey on the playstation we most of the time turn offsides off.

 

And i'll admit it opened up the game a lot amd made way more fast paced and fun to play.

 

So i would listen to ideas to change it.

 

But man it would change the landscape of the game a lot.

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10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I have to admit it is a very interesting idea.

 

In fact back in the 90's when my roomate and i played NHL hockey on the playstation we most of the time turn offsides off.

 

And i'll admit it opened up the game a lot amd made way more fast paced and fun to play.

 

So i would listen to ideas to change it.

 

But man it would change the landscape of the game a lot.

 

I agree! It would change the game and it would change the coaching strategy. It might even change the way you put your lineup together....

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On 10/11/2017 at 8:28 PM, OccamsRazor said:

I have to admit it is a very interesting idea.

 

In fact back in the 90's when my roomate and i played NHL hockey on the playstation we most of the time turn offsides off.

 

And i'll admit it opened up the game a lot amd made way more fast paced and fun to play.

 

Do we need to make the game any faster?  :thinking:

 

Quite frankly, if the NHL speeds up the game any more I'm going to have to start watching it at 3/4 speed just to see what's happening. 

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On 10/11/2017 at 8:52 AM, pilldoc said:

 

Offsides.png.jpg

 

So since the Flyers just got burned by it last night ..... here is a topic for discussion.

 

Found this gem of an article from a few months ago.

 

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

Is it time to eliminate the offside rule?

 

No way.   But it's time to start being smart about it and use the NFL's "cross the plane" idea.   Have the lines extend upwards to space.  If the skate/puck/whatever is relevant in coming out or going in, the line extends upwards.    So, Lehtera's skate in the air is the same as Lehtera's skate on the ice  (it's Lehtera, so in either case, is the skate really moving?).  

 

But no, I don't get rid of the offside rule.  That changes so many nuances to the game that it would change the game itself.

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10 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Do we need to make the game any faster?  :thinking:

 

Quite frankly, if the NHL speeds up the game any more I'm going to have to start watching it at 3/4 speed just to see what's happening. 

 

It would change the "just get the puck out" on defense, too.  I don't like the concept at all.

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22 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

It would change the "just get the puck out" on defense, too.  I don't like the concept at all.

 

Agreed. The whole reason for having offsides was to force players to make passes and be forced to advance the puck up the ice. Without offsides, players would just lob the puck down the ice from one end to the other. Nobody would ever skate with the puck. It would be the ultimate in "dump and chase" hockey.  

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2 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Agreed. The whole reason for having offsides was to force players to make passes and be forced to advance the puck up the ice. Without offsides, players would just lob the puck down the ice from one end to the other. Nobody would ever skate with the puck. It would be the ultimate in "dump and chase" hockey.  

Sounds like a borefest to me. 

 

Scoring is great, but one of several reasons why I don't watch the NBA is the constant scoring. Honestly, it's boring after awhile when NOT scoring becomes the exception.  I don't mind the occasional 7-5 game, but I actually like defense and strategy, etc.  I like the build up and tension and then the release after a hard fought for goal. 

 

I really dislike the article posted in the OP and disagree with just about every single word. I'm not sure the author even likes or understands hockey. I'd quit following hockey and find another sport.  The systematic destruction of the game would be complete.  

 

Let's make the author happy and just take the nets down. You get a point every time you touch the puck. Who wouldn't love a 178-167 game? 

 

I like nothing about it. 

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23 hours ago, ruxpin said:

That changes so many nuances to the game that it would change the game itself.

 

 

I get that and understand....so without knowing i to would be scared to change it...it would transform it a lot. 

Edited by OccamsRazor
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36 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Scoring is great, but one of several reasons why I don't watch the NBA is the constant scoring. Honestly, it's boring after awhile when NOT scoring becomes the exception.

 

Great example too.

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Couldn't the do it something more like soccer where its more based on the defensive players position?  It would make it a lot more speedy because the D wouldn't want to get caught flat footed...  Maybe open more one on ones....

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1 hour ago, Trefilov22 said:

Couldn't the do it something more like soccer where its more based on the defensive players position?  It would make it a lot more speedy because the D wouldn't want to get caught flat footed...  Maybe open more one on ones....

 

No.

 

Can we kill this thread yet? 

 

Offsides are part of hockey. Stop.

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Some interesting debate here.  That was my sole purpose of posting the topic.  Personally I could take it or leave it.  On one hand, as I mentioned above, it brings up an interesting point about increased scoring chances and the way a GM would put together a team.  On the other hand I totally support @ruxpin and @Podein25 point of view that it would kill the game. (Maybe not kill the game per se), but radically change it in way that that some of us may not enjoy.  Offside is part of hockey.  I am glad they did away with the two line pass years ago.  That did open up the game.

 

Again.... it was just an article I found and thought it worthy of debate.  I appreciate all who contributed to this thread.

Edited by pilldoc
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22 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Some interesting debate here.  That was my sole purpose of posting the topic.  Personally I could take it or leave it.  On one hand, as I mentioned above, it brings up an interesting point about increased scoring chances and the way a GM would put together a team.  On the other hand I totally support @ruxpin and @Podein25 point of view that it would kill the game. (Maybe not kill the game per se), but radically change it in way that that some of us may not enjoy.  Offside is part of hockey.  I am glad they did away with the two line pass years ago.  That did open up the game.

 

Again.... it was just an article I found and thought it worthy of debate.  I appreciate all who contributed to this thread.

 

Of course, debate is good. I wasn't trying to stifle debate, just made my point as loudly as I could. As usual.

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I am in the camp with those who DON'T want offsides removed because I too agree that it would fundamentally change the game too much.

However, perhaps a bit of retooling on it.

 

Keep the off sides rule in and have it work for the purpose it always has...and that is to make teams gain each zone.

Now, where it seems games get bogged down is in minutiae regarding where exactly a skate is, or how much of a puck has crossed the line....etc....

 

How about we borrow something from baseball and use the ol "neighborhood play".

 

In baseball, when trying to complete two outs in a single play (double play for the non baseball inclined), the second baseman or short stop, though technically is supposed to touch the bag before releasing his throw, is allowed, by the officials to sort of be "around it", reasonably close, so that the fielder can quickly record the out and relay his throw over to 1st....in the case of baseball, this is also done ot lessen the chance of the fielder getting killed by a sliding baserunner.

 

Apply that to hockey where even if the puck isn't COMPLETELY over the blue line and maybe most of the skate of a teammate is already across the blue line before the puck fully goes over the blue line.....leave it as a legal zone entry!

 

The puck and skates are entering the zone at about the same time (the neighborhood)...does it really matter whether a skate was just ahead of the puck or that there wasn't  a complete showing of white ice behind the puck before the other guy entered the zone?  It was all within reason...let it go.

The play is happening fast and getting sidetracked by ticky tack BS like "but the puck still had 1cm that wasn't over the line" or "but the teammates skate was 1 cm over the line already before the puck went over" is just killing play flow.

 

I realize that what I am saying means the refs will have to use quick and decisive judgement on plays (yea, yea, I know..NHL officiating, but cmon, at SOME POINT these guys are just gonna have to get their schtick together anyways!), but I think in the grand scheme of things, it keeps the flow going in games, the lawyer-like technicality crap can go away, and offense is maintained.

 

As for clearing the zone, yes, if the puck is cleared by the defense, then ALL offensive players must clear the zone and re-enter...all skates at least touching the blue line can count as a clear, so again, we aren't looking for slivers of white ice between skate and lines.

 

Pucks lobbed in the air?

Then, as someone suggested, have the 'plane' extend into inifinity upward..meaning that the blue line is the blue line on the ice, but also all the way up to the rafters.

 

Keep the coaches challenge for offsides (but only one per game per coach), keeping in mind that only BLATANT offsides will be upheld...the "neighborhood play" will NOT help contesting coaches.

This should cut down the number of times a ref is 'wrong', so therefore, the actual challenges themselves, while still being an option for a coach, wouldn't be used as much.

 

If for some reason, the coach is correct, any goals that happened after that would be disallowed. Again, this shouldn't happen very often.

If the coach is WRONG however and the offside was NOT blatant, though due to the 'neighborhood play' a foot may have been in ahead of the puck, then that coach's team can be assessed a two minute delay of game. Again, this should NOT happen often.

 

My take.

Basically keeping the offsides with intelligent enforcement of it, keeping the game the way it is supposed to be, giving offenses a bit more latitude, yet still giving defenses a shot when it comes to clearing.

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1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

 

Again.... it was just an article I found and thought it worthy of debate.  I appreciate all who contributed to this thread.

 

Absolutely.  I'm glad you posted it.  I didn't realize it was a thing.

 

You know me, I rarely express my opinion in a strong or emotional way.  :VeryCool:

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2 hours ago, Trefilov22 said:

Couldn't the do it something more like soccer where its more based on the defensive players position?  It would make it a lot more speedy because the D wouldn't want to get caught flat footed...  Maybe open more one on ones....

 

I'd be against this, as well.   I think this, too, would stifle offense, maybe even more.   If I'm a coach, on the smaller hockey surface, I'm keeping my defense up as far as reasonable to keep forwards from moving up ice and hinder the forward pass.   It's funny you mention this, because I was actually thinking about this offline earlier today.   I just came to the conclusion that I really don't like it in soccer and is part of the reason every game ends 1-0 or 2-1.    I think the small surface would make this effect even worse.

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I'm in favor of the "plane" idea. Disagree with the soccer type change. That would virtually eliminate breakaways. Would be a good thing for the Flyers, though.

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1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I am in the camp with those who DON'T want offsides removed because I too agree that it would fundamentally change the game too much.

However, perhaps a bit of retooling on it.

 

Keep the off sides rule in and have it work for the purpose it always has...and that is to make teams gain each zone.

Now, where it seems games get bogged down is in minutiae regarding where exactly a skate is, or how much of a puck has crossed the line....etc....

 

How about we borrow something from baseball and use the ol "neighborhood play".

 

In baseball, when trying to complete two outs in a single play (double play for the non baseball inclined), the second baseman or short stop, though technically is supposed to touch the bag before releasing his throw, is allowed, by the officials to sort of be "around it", reasonably close, so that the fielder can quickly record the out and relay his throw over to 1st....in the case of baseball, this is also done ot lessen the chance of the fielder getting killed by a sliding baserunner.

 

Apply that to hockey where even if the puck isn't COMPLETELY over the blue line and maybe most of the skate of a teammate is already across the blue line before the puck fully goes over the blue line.....leave it as a legal zone entry!

 

The puck and skates are entering the zone at about the same time (the neighborhood)...does it really matter whether a skate was just ahead of the puck or that there wasn't  a complete showing of white ice behind the puck before the other guy entered the zone?  It was all within reason...let it go.

The play is happening fast and getting sidetracked by ticky tack BS like "but the puck still had 1cm that wasn't over the line" or "but the teammates skate was 1 cm over the line already before the puck went over" is just killing play flow.

 

I realize that what I am saying means the refs will have to use quick and decisive judgement on plays (yea, yea, I know..NHL officiating, but cmon, at SOME POINT these guys are just gonna have to get their schtick together anyways!), but I think in the grand scheme of things, it keeps the flow going in games, the lawyer-like technicality crap can go away, and offense is maintained.

 

As for clearing the zone, yes, if the puck is cleared by the defense, then ALL offensive players must clear the zone and re-enter...all skates at least touching the blue line can count as a clear, so again, we aren't looking for slivers of white ice between skate and lines.

 

Pucks lobbed in the air?

Then, as someone suggested, have the 'plane' extend into inifinity upward..meaning that the blue line is the blue line on the ice, but also all the way up to the rafters.

 

Keep the coaches challenge for offsides (but only one per game per coach), keeping in mind that only BLATANT offsides will be upheld...the "neighborhood play" will NOT help contesting coaches.

This should cut down the number of times a ref is 'wrong', so therefore, the actual challenges themselves, while still being an option for a coach, wouldn't be used as much.

 

If for some reason, the coach is correct, any goals that happened after that would be disallowed. Again, this shouldn't happen very often.

If the coach is WRONG however and the offside was NOT blatant, though due to the 'neighborhood play' a foot may have been in ahead of the puck, then that coach's team can be assessed a two minute delay of game. Again, this should NOT happen often.

 

My take.

Basically keeping the offsides with intelligent enforcement of it, keeping the game the way it is supposed to be, giving offenses a bit more latitude, yet still giving defenses a shot when it comes to clearing.

I think I'd be okay with the neighborhood concept.   My hesitation is where is the demarcation between "neighborhood" and "out of town?"  I suppose it's done in baseball, but hockey players and coaches seem much more willing to both stretch what is given them and also mangle and pervert it.   Can't hit me in the back?   Cool.  You're going to see nothing but my back against the boards.    Can't hit me in the head?  I'm going to slump over and study my beautiful stickhandling.   Got my head cut off by a guillotine?  I have a UBI.  etc.     I'm just wondering about the arguments by Buffalo fans that a skate was 6 inches away and not 4.   Or that it was 6 not 4 but what's the difference, both are off!

 

I wouldn't mind keeping it exactly how they have it but return to where offsides aren't reviewable.   I don't know why we have to go back a full minute before a goal to figure out from 7 angles whether a toe blade is touching a line when the puck has changed carriers 30 times between then and the goal, the defense had several opportunities to clear and didn't, etc.   It just seems cheap.  And it seems like Bobby Ewing only died in a dream.   It's not the offsides I dislike; it's this idiocy.

 

I  know, get the call right.    I'm not sure that supersedes common sense or entertainment value.   Players make mistakes and it's included in the game.   Just because the defenseman loses an edge or covers the wrong guy and it ends up in the net doesn't mean we reset the clock and let them try again.    Just because Jeff Carter shoots high and wide doesn't mean we reset the clock and let him try again.    But a linesman misses half an inch 60 seconds ago  we change an outcome and reset the clock?   I disagree with this.   Go back to humans, which means some human error.  That's just the way the game is played.   Don't like it, watch a video game.

 

That said, I'm okay with reviewing a high stick or a kicking motion in the crease or something of that nature that had an immediate impact on a goal.  I'd also be okay with going back to no video review, but I'm okay with this kind.   The offsides that several things happened between then and now that could have altered the outcome?  No, I don't like that.

 

So, keep the offsides.  Get rid of the video review.   No one wants to pay $100+ for a ticket to watch 4 blind mice watch a tablet.

Edited by ruxpin
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Oh, yeah. A time limit on when the offside occurred. Please. 10-15 seconds prior to the goal maximum.

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1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

Oh, yeah. A time limit on when the offside occurred. Please. 10-15 seconds prior to the goal maximum.

I guess I could meet halfway and agree to the 10-15 seconds (preferably 10), but even 10-15 seconds of game time is a long time to have things happen to get over a blown offside call.  And this from someone who still gets shakes from hearing "Leon Stickle" 37 years later. 

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2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I guess I could meet halfway and agree to the 10-15 seconds (preferably 10), but even 10-15 seconds of game time is a long time to have things happen to get over a blown offside call.  And this from someone who still gets shakes from hearing "Leon Stickle" 37 years later. 

 

I'm just trying to guess at what point the offisdes really ceases to be a factor. I'm fine with an even shorter period.

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1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

I'm just trying to guess at what point the offisdes really ceases to be a factor. I'm fine with an even shorter period.

Yeah, I get it. 10-15 probably covers that. 

 

I'd kind of like it shut off altogether, but I guess I'll take it. 

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On 10/15/2017 at 1:54 PM, ruxpin said:

 

I'd be against this, as well.   I think this, too, would stifle offense, maybe even more.   If I'm a coach, on the smaller hockey surface, I'm keeping my defense up as far as reasonable to keep forwards from moving up ice and hinder the forward pass.   It's funny you mention this, because I was actually thinking about this offline earlier today.   I just came to the conclusion that I really don't like it in soccer and is part of the reason every game ends 1-0 or 2-1.    I think the small surface would make this effect even worse.

Could be, or may it only valid within a certain portion of the ice...  I'm not sure where you would make the magical line.  I had an idea earlier and now it's not coming to mind.  I hate getting old.  

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22 minutes ago, Trefilov22 said:

I hate getting old.

 

Right there with ya, bud.

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    • 3
      Post
        No way.   But it's time to start being smart about it and use the NFL's "cross the plane" idea.   Have the lines extend upwards to space.  If the skate/puck/whatever is relevant in coming out or going in, the line extends upwards.    So, Lehtera's skate in the air is the same as Lehtera's skate on the ice  (it's Lehtera, so in either case, is the skate really moving?).     But no, I don't get rid of the offside rule.  That changes so many nuances to the game that it would change the game itself.
    • 3
      Post
        Agreed. The whole reason for having offsides was to force players to make passes and be forced to advance the puck up the ice. Without offsides, players would just lob the puck down the ice from one end to the other. Nobody would ever skate with the puck. It would be the ultimate in "dump and chase" hockey.  
    • 2
      Post
      I am in the camp with those who DON'T want offsides removed because I too agree that it would fundamentally change the game too much. However, perhaps a bit of retooling on it.   Keep the off sides rule in and have it work for the purpose it always has...and that is to make teams gain each zone. Now, where it seems games get bogged down is in minutiae regarding where exactly a skate is, or how much of a puck has crossed the line....etc....   How about we borrow something from baseball and use the ol "neighborhood play".   In baseball, when trying to complete two outs in a single play (double play for the non baseball inclined), the second baseman or short stop, though technically is supposed to touch the bag before releasing his throw, is allowed, by the officials to sort of be "around it", reasonably close, so that the fielder can quickly record the out and relay his throw over to 1st....in the case of baseball, this is also done ot lessen the chance of the fielder getting killed by a sliding baserunner.   Apply that to hockey where even if the puck isn't COMPLETELY over the blue line and maybe most of the skate of a teammate is already across the blue line before the puck fully goes over the blue line.....leave it as a legal zone entry!   The puck and skates are entering the zone at about the same time (the neighborhood)...does it really matter whether a skate was just ahead of the puck or that there wasn't  a complete showing of white ice behind the puck before the other guy entered the zone?  It was all within reason...let it go. The play is happening fast and getting sidetracked by ticky tack BS like "but the puck still had 1cm that wasn't over the line" or "but the teammates skate was 1 cm over the line already before the puck went over" is just killing play flow.   I realize that what I am saying means the refs will have to use quick and decisive judgement on plays (yea, yea, I know..NHL officiating, but cmon, at SOME POINT these guys are just gonna have to get their schtick together anyways!), but I think in the grand scheme of things, it keeps the flow going in games, the lawyer-like technicality crap can go away, and offense is maintained.   As for clearing the zone, yes, if the puck is cleared by the defense, then ALL offensive players must clear the zone and re-enter...all skates at least touching the blue line can count as a clear, so again, we aren't looking for slivers of white ice between skate and lines.   Pucks lobbed in the air? Then, as someone suggested, have the 'plane' extend into inifinity upward..meaning that the blue line is the blue line on the ice, but also all the way up to the rafters.   Keep the coaches challenge for offsides (but only one per game per coach), keeping in mind that only BLATANT offsides will be upheld...the "neighborhood play" will NOT help contesting coaches. This should cut down the number of times a ref is 'wrong', so therefore, the actual challenges themselves, while still being an option for a coach, wouldn't be used as much.   If for some reason, the coach is correct, any goals that happened after that would be disallowed. Again, this shouldn't happen very often. If the coach is WRONG however and the offside was NOT blatant, though due to the 'neighborhood play' a foot may have been in ahead of the puck, then that coach's team can be assessed a two minute delay of game. Again, this should NOT happen often.   My take. Basically keeping the offsides with intelligent enforcement of it, keeping the game the way it is supposed to be, giving offenses a bit more latitude, yet still giving defenses a shot when it comes to clearing.
    • 2
      Post
        Yeah, offside is pretty integral to how the game is played, and getting rid of it would fundamentally change tactics and plays in a way that I wouldn't enjoy. It bugs the hell out of me the amount of time spent rocking footage back and forth (they should at least up the frame rates on those cameras...) and making the line a plane as mentioned earlier and frequently in other threads would really go towards making this rule so much less tedious. But ultimately I support its existence if not the execution.       I don't see a problem with this idea, it'll really cut back on the challenges.
    • 1
      Post
          I have to admit it is a very interesting idea.   In fact back in the 90's when my roomate and i played NHL hockey on the playstation we most of the time turn offsides off.   And i'll admit it opened up the game a lot amd made way more fast paced and fun to play.   So i would listen to ideas to change it.   But man it would change the landscape of the game a lot.
    • 1
      Post
        Absolutely.  I'm glad you posted it.  I didn't realize it was a thing.   You know me, I rarely express my opinion in a strong or emotional way. 

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