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brelic

Nolan Patrick - Stay or go?

Patrick - Stay or go?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Flyers keep Nolan Patrick on the roster, or send him back to the WHL?

    • Stay on the Flyers
      21
    • Back to the WHL
      14


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11 hours ago, icehole said:

I've been on couturier's case for 6 years now.  When couturier is centering Giroux and voracek in year 7 though, it turns out that maybe he can play.  All of those years that he was a "top defensive forward" while the flyers were struggling to score goals, maybe they should have put him in an offensive role instead....

 

 

I'm having this engraved on a plaque first thing in the morning.

 

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There is no way on Earth they send him back down. He will struggle. He will sit in the box to watch a few games. He will be relegated to the 4th line at time. However, there is no way they send him back. 

 

Fundamentally that would go against everything Hextall has been preaching about no mini-tryouts. 

 

Personally, I don't think he should have made the team this season, but too late now.

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1 hour ago, Bertmega said:

There is no way on Earth they send him back down. He will struggle. He will sit in the box to watch a few games. He will be relegated to the 4th line at time. However, there is no way they send him back. 

 

Fundamentally that would go against everything Hextall has been preaching about no mini-tryouts. 

 

Personally, I don't think he should have made the team this season, but too late now.

 

^^^^^Bigo^^^^^^

 

Could not agree more bert.

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1 hour ago, Bertmega said:

There is no way on Earth they send him back down. He will struggle. He will sit in the box to watch a few games. He will be relegated to the 4th line at time. However, there is no way they send him back. 

 

Fundamentally that would go against everything Hextall has been preaching about no mini-tryouts. 

 

Personally, I don't think he should have made the team this season, but too late now.

 

It's never to late as long as he has only played 9 games.

 

 

But yeah if he plays the 10th game might as well leave him up since his entry level will start then.

 

WTH.

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

It's never to late as long as he has only played 9 games.

 

 

But yeah if he plays the 10th game might as well leave him up since his entry level will start then.

 

WTH.

It's too late in the sense that Hextall probably will not go against his formula of "no try outs". 

 

He is here to stay and learn for the long run. 

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3 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

It's too late in the sense that Hextall probably will not go against his formula of "no try outs". 

 

He is here to stay and learn for the long run. 

 

Yeah he is a stubborn S.O.B.

 

:hithead:

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On 10/25/2017 at 8:04 AM, brelic said:

I get the feeling almost everyone will say keep Nolan Patrick, but this thread was more about just getting your thoughts on his play so far.

 

I wouldn't be disappointed if they chose to send him back. He's looked more and more overwhelmed in the past 3-4 games, I'd say. His skating seems slow, and he's just not really asserting himself offensively.

 

I wonder if he would best be served by playing a full year in the WHL, healthy, and then coming back next year that much stronger. 

 

Or will he learn much more by being on the Flyers this year?

 

Anyway, whichever way they lean, I trust them to do what's best for the player's development. 

 

 

 

He needs to get better.  There's no doubt. But that's not happening in Juniors.  

 

Hes a smart player and it takes time to learn how to play a system instead of having the team r voice around everything you do (Pens, Oilers). 

 

Not saying he's Crosby or McDavid good just that those teams play(played) around their young stars strengths.  

 

The flyers a) don't want that and b) know that Pat's strengths aren't maybe as strong as Crosby or McDavid or Gretzky or Lindros' were comparatively. 

 

So so he has to learn the NHL game and his role in a system. 

 

He's also not entering a fully formed competitive team the way say Kane was.  

 

Theyre all putting things together... together.  

 

Its too too late to send him back now anyway.  

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On 10/26/2017 at 8:58 AM, murraycraven said:

 

^^^^^Bigo^^^^^^

 

Could not agree more bert.

 

 

He wouldn't get better back in juniors.  He needs to fail and get beat and learn up here.  Dominating in juniors again will not help him at all. 

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12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

He wouldn't get better back in juniors.  He needs to fail and get beat and learn up here.  Dominating in juniors again will not help him at all. 

 

Well, it is official, he is up for good - for better or worse.   I agree completely with you...

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On 10/25/2017 at 9:56 AM, vis said:

He has not looked good in the NHL.  Aside from some nice, nifty plays here and there, I have not been impressed.  I just don't think he's up to speed with the game and hasn't show any dynamic ability yet.  I thought his skating issues in preseason were attributable to the the surgeries, but I thought we would see some improvement by now.  If it turns out he expects to miss a lot of time with his injury, I would say to send him back to junior (assuming they can do that).  If he's not playing here for a long time, then don't burn the year on his contract.  Let him rest and finish the year there.

 

Question is: how do you fill his spot?  Do you move G back to center and drop Couturier down a line?

 

Gotta say: for a year in which we had a lot of expectations for young players, I have been mildly disappointed.  Thought Patrick and Lindblom would have success.  Thought Morin and/or Sanheim would be a regular (though perhaps Sanheim is becoming one).  Surprised that Hagg has risen above all of them.  He's been very good.

 

This is what I was trying to tell you a few months ago. I feel like we always get excited about these young players and they don't usually work out. Not that I'm giving up on any of them yet, but most of them didn't even make the team.

 

As for Patrick specifically, I'm not impressed either. The way everyone was talking about how this was a two-person draft – and the two people worthy of being top picks  are going to come right in and be impact players.

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@fanaticV3.0

 

This team can't be 2 time losers with the second pick...can it ?

I think Patrick will be alright, I don't think he'll be awesome for a couple of years though.

I do think when he's at his best we'll like the player he is and be glad he's on the team.

 

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48 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

This is what I was trying to tell you a few months ago. I feel like we always get excited about these young players and they don't usually work out. Not that I'm giving up on any of them yet, but most of them didn't even make the team.

 

As for Patrick specifically, I'm not impressed either. The way everyone was talking about how this was a two-person draft – and the two people worthy of being top picks  are going to come right in and be impact players.

 

Your perspective on prospects, where they come from, how they develop, the art and science of drafting and player evaluation/projection continues to baffle me. The bolded sentence above is particularly asinine.  

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Are you guys seriously already calling him a flop?

 

Remember how bad Provorov looked his first 10 games? 

 

Give Patrick some damn time. 

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5 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

Are you guys seriously already calling him a flop?

I don't think anyone is, actually.

I think folks are calling for the hype machine to get turned back to "reality". 

...For myself,  I think Patrick will be a really really good player, I also don't expect that to happen right away. 

There is a high expectation for the #2 pick to be an impact player, when a guy is hurt, and looks overwhelmed coming from that draft position people can get ....antsy about the future.

 

I'm excited by Patrick being a Flyer, He's a big dude, he skates pretty well and at 19 has made some pretty high hockey savvy plays already.  I think he'll be a guy no one wants to play against eventually. 

 

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 The main reason I wanted Nico over Nolan was skating and elusiveness. I watched Nolan play in the top prospects game last year and he looked sluggish. I was hoping that could be attributed to a nagging injury or something, but alas, he will never be confused with Guy Lafleur....lol. His skating is what it is, it's not brutal, but by no means elite either...just very average. He might eventually develop into a respectable power forward with a bull in a china shop mentality. Especially when he fills out more. You can see flashes of skill, but he often seems overwhelmed by the pace and speed of the game, stuff that junior cannot help him with. The rules prevent it, but Patrick is one of those kids who would be best served playing against men in the AHL....that would be the perfect spot for him right now, a faster game than the WHL...he needs to be playing against men and learning the pace of the pro game. 

 

  This is a close call. The one area where the WHL would help him is confidence with the puck, playing on the top pp allows a kid to experiment, try things in a game situation which can lead to increased poise and overall awareness. On the other hand, playing against 16-19-year-old dmen will not help his game in even strength mode. He's gonna dominate young defensemen in juniors, which will not prepare him for the rigors of the NHL much. If sending Nolan back leads to Cooter coming off G and V's line, I'm not a fan of the move. We are *finally* at the point where Sean is earning his money, contributing offense consistently for the first time in his career, do NOT mess with that. 

 

 EDIT....did not read through the thread, some of my points were already mentioned, sorry for the redundancy. 

Edited by jammer2

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On 10/27/2017 at 4:26 PM, mojo1917 said:

@fanaticV3.0

 

This team can't be 2 time losers with the second pick...can it ?

I think Patrick will be alright, I don't think he'll be awesome for a couple of years though.

I do think when he's at his best we'll like the player he is and be glad he's on the team.

 

 

It definitely could be but that's a negative way to look at it. We won #2 overall and however Patrick turns out, it will almost certainly be better overall than #13-15 that we would have gotten. So in that sense, we are winners no matter what.

 

But more specifically to the Hischier/Patrick debate, yeah, it's quite possible that Nico ends up better... much better. He was selected #1 overall, however slim that margin may have been. In the footage I've seen of Hischier so far, he looks like a much more impressive player than Patrick, and he's actually putting up points too. Even his defensive work has been impressive - a few really nice plays to break up dangerous chances against the Devils. And he can skate. Patrick looks sluggish, and that will likely always hurt him in a very fast NHL.

 

But, there's nothing we can do about it - Hischier was not our player to pick. The Devils will be the ones to look back in ten years and wonder if they picked the right player. So in essence, how are we measuring Patrick? Against other #2 overalls? 

 

I do get exactly what you mean, though.. it's frustrating as a Flyers fan that both times we have the #2 overall pick, there is no franchise player in the draft available at that spot. No Laine, no Eichel, no Seguin, no Malkin. I looked back at the past 10-12 drafts, and there are quite a few years where the order would change significantly in a redraft. Hindsight, right? Lol. 

 

I think if Patrick becomes a 60-70 point #1 two-way center, we'd all be really happy with that, regardless of how anyone else pans out. Less than that, and we'd likely be disappointed.

 

Edited by brelic
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On 10/27/2017 at 4:30 PM, Podein25 said:

 

Your perspective on prospects, where they come from, how they develop, the art and science of drafting and player evaluation/projection continues to baffle me. The bolded sentence above is particularly asinine.  

 

I think what @fanaticV3.0 what mean (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that we rarely end up with high end talent that just takes the league by storm - exceeds ours and everyone's expectations, in a sense. 

 

I look at other teams, and always hear about the young guys who come up and just light it up.... and I'd agree with @fanaticV3.0 that it seems to rarely happen to the Flyers. And maybe that's just a false sentiment, I don't know. 

 

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

I don't recall anyone saying Patrick, or Hischier for that matter, was coming into the league and taking it by storm. It was well known this wasn't a great draft, with no real superstar talent. But when you move up from 14th to 2nd, you take it. And I'll take the 2nd overall pick in a mediocre draft over the 14th pick all day long.

 

 Patrick has been considered a low end 1st line/top end 2nd line centre by a lot of people in the know. Whats wrong with that? I don't have any problem with the guys skill level. His health is the big concern IMO, but he's still a guy worth taking a chance on with your gifted 2nd overall pick. 

 

 As for people not being wowed by him...he just turned 19 and is coming off an injury filled season. Lets see what he looks like when he's completely healthy and has more than NINE games in his NHL career.

 

 Provorov looked bad his first 9. He finished the season as our best defenceman.

 

 

exactly my argument...   

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6 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I think what @fanaticV3.0 what mean (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that we rarely end up with high end talent that just takes the league by storm - exceeds ours and everyone's expectations, in a sense. 

 

I look at other teams, and always hear about the young guys who come up and just light it up.... and I'd agree with @fanaticV3.0 that it seems to rarely happen to the Flyers. And maybe that's just a false sentiment, I don't know. 

 

 

Fair enuff.

 

The sentiment is strong of course because for over a decade Flyers management traded all our 2nd round picks. That's where the focus of the frustration should be directed at.

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4 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Fair enuff.

 

The sentiment is strong of course because for over a decade Flyers management traded all our 2nd round picks. That's where the focus of the frustration should be directed at.

 

Yes, absolutely. And we have recently had one of those gems in Ghost. He came in and lit the league on fire, finishing second behind Panarin for ROY. Not bad for a 3rd rounder. 

 

I'd say Konency is another pleasant surprise for a late 1st round pick. 

 

I think it all comes down to expectations, doesn't it? We *expect* much more from Patrick *because* he's a 2nd overall pick and we compare to previous drafts, even though the scouting on his ceiling is, like @flyercanuck said, decent 1st line center or great 2nd line center. And we *expect* him to be that right away, and disappointed when it doesn't happen (but it does for Laine, Hischier, etc).

 

At the end of the day, though, this team has a great foundation, they're fun to watch, they're fast, and they play like a *team*. Giroux and Voracek look rejuvenated, Ghost is back to being Ghost, and our 2nd year guys are showing growth too. Sanheim and Hagg look great. Weal might be our best forechecker and puck possession guy. Patrick has looked fine too if we drop expectations. He might end up being like Couturier where his speed is an issue, but if you pair him with the right guys (Konecny is a great start), then suddenly his speed is not really an issue when you consider his overall impact. Just like Couturier this year.

 

Go FLYERS!

 

 

 

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 3:26 PM, mojo1917 said:

@fanaticV3.0

 

This team can't be 2 time losers with the second pick...can it ?

I think Patrick will be alright, I don't think he'll be awesome for a couple of years though.

I do think when he's at his best we'll like the player he is and be glad he's on the team.

 

 

Patrick is fine if he can avoid hits like that.  I don't blame Lindros for his concussions, but Patrick really just wasn't bracing himself.  

 

He's not McDavid, he's not Matthews. Everyone knew that. Doesn't mean he won't be a very good player like you say. 

 

As as it is, people still hate on JVR, but there he is potting 30+ goals every year... exactly the thing we've needed. 

 

That said, Patrick is I believe a Much much better player.  I think he'll be just fine. 

 

 

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I really don't know what to make of Nolan Patrick. Part of me hopes that he is a Mark Scheifele type of player in that he becomes an 80 to 90 point player after a few seasons. Part of me thinks the Flyers picked the wrong guy at 2 and that Cody Glass should have been a Flyer. I really just can't get a read on Patrick.

 

As for the amount of time he's missed with the concussion, I think it's time to go back to junior. I'm not sure if the games missed count for the 9 game mark or not, but if they don't, send him back. If they do, then he stays in Philadelphia and gets back to work on the third line. I'd actually move Raffl to the left wing on that line and move Weise down to the Laughton - Leier line instead. I think Raffl (who I can't stand) is a perfect fit on a line with Patrick and Konecny to dig the puck out of the corners for them. It's clear Weise certainly couldn't do that.

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1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I think Raffl (who I can't stand)

why ?

he's playing right where he's supposed to be, on a line where he can use his reach speed and strength on the forecheck.

He's been great this year.

Look he's not a top line winger, i didn't like him there either, but the guy is versatile and plays a pretty heavy game with 21 and 20.

 

I don't think Patrick can go back to junior ,and truly, what would he do there ? he's a guy that needs to play against men and not teams with 16 and 17 years olds.  I think if the Flyers let him take it slow with the concussion stuff he'll come back and be fine. 

It has been said elsewhere , Provorov didn't look like  Provorov until he got about 15 - 20 games into his NHL career. I think Patrick could follow a similar arc. He's got the brains, and a pile of ability.  

I don't think the Flyers do him harm by keeping him in the bigs. I do think there is possibility for doing him harm by rushing him back from his injury though. So I am fine with them being cautious.

 

 

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I think it's quite simple, really. They picked Patrick second, saw him in training camp, and said he's good enough to be a quality NHLer right now. He's struggled recently, but almost every rookie does for stretches of time. They have to keep him up in the NHL. The young guys need to learn how to play at the NHL level. What better way to let Patrick learn how to play in the NHL then to have him play ACTUALLY IN THE NHL. If you send him back down to juniors now, you will hurt his confidence, if not his pride, and game overall. They aren't going anywhere this season anyway, so they shouldn't screw with his mind. They need to keep him here now that he's here. In hindsight, they should have approached this the way they did with Lindros. He was drafted in 1991, and didn't play for the Flyers until 1992.

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    • 5
      Post
      I don't recall anyone saying Patrick, or Hischier for that matter, was coming into the league and taking it by storm. It was well known this wasn't a great draft, with no real superstar talent. But when you move up from 14th to 2nd, you take it. And I'll take the 2nd overall pick in a mediocre draft over the 14th pick all day long.    Patrick has been considered a low end 1st line/top end 2nd line centre by a lot of people in the know. Whats wrong with that? I don't have any problem wi
    • 4
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      Hagg plays a different type of game and is comfortable staying within the parameters of the system - which is a tremendous asset for some of your defensive corps, especially if you want players like Ghost and Sanheim playing on the offensive edge.   I've pretty much given up trying to figure out why Hakstol does some of the things he does with playing time.
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      Good news.  I totally trust the organization's handling of head injuries, especially when it comes to high profile players.
    • 4
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      I'm not dogging him either, but everyone jumped down my throat last year for bringing up the same exact topic about provorov.  I basically said that it's early but he hasn't been impressive...he made a lot of bad mistakes that included him tripping over his own feet and giving up goals.   He ended up the season as the best defenseman.  Hopefully Patrick just needs a little more time to get used to the NHL.
    • 4
      Post
      He wouldn't get better back in juniors.  He needs to fail and get beat and learn up here.  Dominating in juniors again will not help him at all. 
    • 3
      Post
      Yes, absolutely. And we have recently had one of those gems in Ghost. He came in and lit the league on fire, finishing second behind Panarin for ROY. Not bad for a 3rd rounder.    I'd say Konency is another pleasant surprise for a late 1st round pick.    I think it all comes down to expectations, doesn't it? We *expect* much more from Patrick *because* he's a 2nd overall pick and we compare to previous drafts, even though the scouting on his ceiling is, like @flyercanuck said

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