Schenn on pace for 101 pts...

[icehole]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

No you don't have to.

 

I prefer just claiming the Blues the winner off Schenn's 22 games played.

 

Hand them the "We won the trade trophy right now."

 

I think one way to see who won the trade would be to ask the team and fans if they like the trade.  I'm not sure you'll find anyone on their side that's saying "I can't believe we had a shot at frost and we let it get away.  And what are we going to do without that 25-31 pick next year.  And we then we threw in Lehtera...what are we going to do without Lehtera!" 

 

I know there are some on the flyers side that miss schenn, don't know what the 27th pick will project to be, don't care about getting another late round pick, and don't like taking on lehtera's contract.  

 

That alone tells me the blues won the deal.  If they have success on top of it, that's just salt in the wound.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I think one way to see who won the trade would be to ask the team and fans if they like the trade.  I'm not sure you'll find anyone on their side that's saying "I can't believe we had a shot at frost and we let it get away. 

I think we should do it based on how much a slice of pizza is at the 7-Eleven down the street from each arena. Because that's equally relevant. 

 

You have one franchise with a mature team that's been "challenging" for several years now adding an actual player that is currently doing well.

 

And another franchise about 5 years behind in the lifecycle that got 2 picks as part of a build. 

 

Without naming the teams, of course the fans of the first are more excited. I bet you though, that there's people in St Louis who miss the picks because they don't understand how this works just as much as someone complaining about losing a player who would have changed nothing and suggesting we measure a trade win by which group of myopic people are currently more excited not 2 months into a season in which one franchise got a pay me later. 

 

You can "think" that's a way to measure, but it's simply absurd. 

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

I think one way to see who won the trade would be to ask the team and fans if they like the trade.  I'm not sure you'll find anyone on their side that's saying "I can't believe we had a shot at frost and we let it get away.  And what are we going to do without that 25-31 pick next year.  And we then we threw in Lehtera...what are we going to do without Lehtera!" 

 

I know there are some on the flyers side that miss schenn, don't know what the 27th pick will project to be, don't care about getting another late round pick, and don't like taking on lehtera's contract.  

 

That alone tells me the blues won the deal.  If they have success on top of it, that's just salt in the wound.

 

 

And to further make you Schenn lover's mad wouldn't it at least be more fair to at least let Frost and the other 1st draft reach at least Brayden's ripe ol age of 26 to judge???

 

I mean for all we know right now we could have "two of the best players currently not playing in the NHL" on our hands then what could we say????

 

And for the record i'm not telling anyone how they should judge the trade. Feel free to feel however you like about it. But i knew this day would come as soon as he had any type of success.

 

And as @JR Ewing whom i would call an unbiased poster here put it is impossible for them to continue playing as well as they are.

 

So we will see.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I think we should do it based on how much a slice of pizza is at the 7-Eleven down the street from each arena.

 

Wait!?!  7-Eleven has pizza?!?

[pilldoc]

13 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

Schenn is a good player, and that line is having a great ride, but they will NOT keep going on like this.

 

Brayden Schenn

CorsiFor% - 57%

GoalsFor% - 75%

 

Right now everything is going in. Schwartz won't continue to put almost 1/4 of his shots in the net as the season goes on, and they won't be able to keep putting up Goal% 25-30% above the amount they have possession.

 

Blues fans: enjoy it while it lasts, because right now they're white hot.

 

 

 

Just to add on to what @JR Ewing stated...lets look at some further stats.

 

 

As it is clearly evident above, Schwartz is clearly scoring at an unsustainable rate.  There is is absolutely no way Schwartz continues to have a 24 SH% for the rest of the entire season.  Now lets look at Schenn.  He too is shooting above his normal CSH% by almost 4%.  With 61 SOG at 12% that would calculate out to 7 Goals instead of 10 (-3 G).   Then if you factor in the insane shooting of Schwartz and calculate the number of goals based on 46 SOG at 13% he would only have 6 G. (-5 G).  Assume those goals have assists to Schenn then Schenn would be -8 total points giving him 7G, 15A for 22 PTS.  At 22 PTS Schenn would be 2nd on the Flyers 1 point behind Giroux, who himself is shooting 10% over his CSH%.

In a nutshell what I am trying to say is exactly what JR is saying.  The Blues have gotten off to a white hot start scoring wise.  Yes for the time being Schenn is exploding with points, however, he is shooting 4% over his CSH% and you factor in the extremely hot start by Schwartz who is shooting at an ungodly rate of 24%, there is no way either player sustains this throughout the season. 

Tarasenko is right were his stats say he should be.

 

So yeah....as the title of this thread..Schenn is "projected" to be at 101 pts.  That does not guarantee he will reach that lofty goal.

 

The real question as mentioned above by @elmatus ....Why is Schenn suddenly having this success?  Does he just gel better and have better chemistry with Tarasenko and Schwartz?  Is it the system?  Is is the coach.  Is it because he playing Center instead of wing?   What do the Blues have that the Flyers do not?

 

The season is still young.  Let's re-evaluate this trade after the season and not after 22 games. (sample size is WAY too small).  Also as has been mentioned one can't fairly evaluate a trade when you trade an established NHL player for picks.  At least not at this stage of the game. 

 

Yes...for the immediate time being Schenn is having success with the Blues.  You can't dispute that.  However, lets not crucify Hexy quite yet on this trade.

 

that is all

 

[murraycraven]

58 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

However, lets not crucify Hexy quite let on this trade.

 

I can crucify Hextall on a number of things but the whole Schenn thing is not one of them.   

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

I can crucify Hextall on a number of things but the whole Schenn thing is not one of them.   

Agreed. 

[pilldoc]

14 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

I can crucify Hextall on a number of things but the whole Schenn thing is not one of them.   

 

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

Agreed. 

Double agree ....

[icehole]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

You have one franchise with a mature team that's been "challenging" for several years now adding an actual player that is currently doing well.

 

I remember the days when the flyers were "challenging" for several years and added players that did well.  Those were the days.

[pilldoc]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

I remember the days when the flyers were "challenging" for several years and added players that did well.  Those were the days.

 

I do too ...but that went out the window the moment the NHL instituted a Salary Cap.  Homer and company simply did not know how to manage the cap well.  Then to add insult to injury they kept trading away draft picks (specifically 2nd Rounders) for washed up over the hill vets.  That left the farm team bare and devoid of quality talent.  Add on the horrific contracts of Bryz and Vinny and you had the makings of a bona-fide disaster which is taking years to recover from.

 

 

[ruxpin]

39 minutes ago, icehole said:

I remember the days when the flyers were "challenging" for several years and added players that did well.  Those were the days.

Yeah, I remember that too. I also remember when the Blues sucked.  I don't remember the Blues winning the Cup or even going far (this line isn't really relevant but couldn't resist throwing that in there in case Rick is reading).  

 

But these things typically run in cycles AND this team was horribly mismanaged. We've watched other teams cycle up and built to compete for an extended period in very similar ways. And when we get to that point, that's the time to add the type of player the Blues did - - or other teams at that stage do. 

 

Happy Thanksgiving, sir. 

 

 

[Lindbergh31]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I remember the days when the flyers were "challenging" for several years and added players that did well.  Those were the days.

Chicago and Los Angeles sucked for long periods of time, accumulated draft picks and built through the draft. The result was 3 cups for Chicago and 2 for LA. Is it a guarantee to win a cup building through the draft not necessarily (Edmonton says hello) but trading draft picks for over the hill vets for a quick fix doesn't work either. The Flyers like every other team with lots of money can't spend their way to a possible contender like in the pre-salary cap era. Remember way back in the cup years, those teams were built through the draft and timely trades so we can only hope that Hextall's approach provides the same result down the road. He's made some goods moves and some bad ones but I'd still take his approach over Holmgren's any day.

[jammer2]

38 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Chicago and Los Angeles sucked for long periods of time, accumulated draft picks and built through the draft. The result was 3 cups for Chicago and 2 for LA.

 

 Not only did they suck and get top 3 picks, they hit home runs on the other part of the equation....which is finishing in the bottom 3 in a draft where top shelf star power exists.  Kane, Toews and Doughty being front and center in those drafts. When the Flyers finish in the bottom 3, we have Kyle Turris and JVR to pick from...or left overs from Nico aka Patrick. 

[jammer2]

 One of the main reasons why Schenn's scoring prowess will slow down, and it actually has nothing to do with Brayden.

 

 Schwartz has been injured every year he has played in the NHL. Not sure why some of these are deemed day to day, cause a lot of them were substantial injuries. The Elbow injury cost him 40+ games, ditto for the fractured ankle, out 49 games with that one. 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/jaden-schwartz-player-injuries

 

DATE	DESCRIPTION	STATUS
01/01/2017	Illness	Day-To-Day
09/30/2016	Elbow	Day-To-Day
10/23/2015	Fractured Left Ankle	Day-To-Day
12/17/2014	Right Foot	IR
12/16/2013	Upper-Body Injury	Day-To-Day

 

 He's injured often enough to safely call him injury prone. As per usual when a line goes on a hot streak, if one of them goes down, the magic is lost. The players who would sub in for a potential Schwartz injury, Vladimir Sbotka....maybe Stasney on the wing....either way, they are big steps down from the speedy Schwartz. Maybe ol' man Steen could sub in, he would be the best case for the Blues I guess. 

[JR Ewing]

13 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

  Not sure why some of these are deemed day to day, cause a lot of them were substantial injuries.

 

DATE	DESCRIPTION	STATUS
01/01/2017	Illness	Day-To-Day
09/30/2016	Elbow	Day-To-Day
10/23/2015	Fractured Left Ankle	Day-To-Day
12/17/2014	Right Foot	IR
12/16/2013	Upper-Body Injury	Day-To-Day

 

 

No kidding.

 

Fractured Left Ankle = Day-to-day in the wrestling business. In hockey, you're shut down.

 

[jammer2]

8 hours ago, icehole said:

"I can't believe we had a shot at frost and we let it get away. 

 

 Have you ever seen Frost play?  How can you make a determination on a players value if you have not seen him play? He is quite impressive and will only get better. 

8 hours ago, icehole said:

I know there are some on the flyers side that miss schenn, don't know what the 27th pick will project to be, don't care about getting another late round pick,

 

 There is more than one way to slay a dragon. Say the Flyers finish in the bottom 12 and get a lottery pick. You can then take the 27-30the pick the Blues sent and package both picks to move up and get a significant cornerstone type of impact player. 

9 hours ago, icehole said:

That alone tells me the blues won the deal.  If they have success on top of it, that's just salt in the wound.

 

 Declaring the Blues winners of this deal is just silly. Frost is an 18 year old kid in the O and the 2nd first rounder has not even been used. Those two picks are obviously the meat and potatoes of the deal. Taking on Lehetra's contract was just the cost of doing business. It's 5 mill for one year. That 5 mill will eventually be inconsequential. It's not like the contract will stop the Flyers from adding a player that will put them over the top, if anything, the Flyers will be sellers at the deadline, not buyers. 

 

 Nobody mentions it, but sending the "line killer" packing allowed the Flyers to experiment with the top 6 forwards, and inevitably turned Cooter into a scoring machine. He will have a career year, in part because Schenn's exit allowed them to diversify the lines. 

 

 Another point of interest. Schenn does not create offensively. He's a leech who is totally dependant on his linemates to be creative. He does not make those around him better, instead, those around him make him better. This is due to two important factors. A)Brayden is slow by NHL standards and B) He has no vision, can't anticipate what will happen, making him a straightforward reactionary player. A plodding plumber who has tunnel vision. Frost is the exact opposite, super creative and makes those around him better because of it. 

 

If Brayden was moved to the Blues second line tomorrow, his stats would drop off the face of the earth, exactly what would happen if Cooter was demoted off the G and V line. 

[murraycraven]

43 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

inevitably turned Cooter into a scoring machine. He will have a career year, in part because Schenn's exit allowed them to diversify the lines.

 

 

careful jammer.... some folks refuse to believe Couts can actually be a valuable player around these parts.

[jammer2]

24 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

careful jammer.... some folks refuse to believe Couts can actually be a valuable player around these parts.

 

 Take a look at these astounding stats for Cooter. Perfect for this thread, since it puts the focus squarely on increased scoring with new linemates....

 

 Sean's point per game stats for his 7 year career (WOW, has it *really* been 7 years??!)

 

2011 - 0.35

2012 - 0.32

2013 - 0.47

2014 - 0.45

2015 - 0.61

2016 - 0.51

2017- 1.04.....23 pts in 22 games....amazing metioric rise!!

 

 Another wicked stat...Sean's career best for goals is 15, he has 12 and it is not yet December!!  He has almost surpassed his career high in goals at the quarter-season mark!! 

 

 This is what elite linemates with vision can do for an average player.

 

 F**K Carter getting 60 goals, Cooter is gonna do it.....LMAO!

 

 

 

 

[brelic]

5 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

 Not only did they suck and get top 3 picks, they hit home runs on the other part of the equation....which is finishing in the bottom 3 in a draft where top shelf star power exists.  Kane, Toews and Doughty being front and center in those drafts. When the Flyers finish in the bottom 3, we have Kyle Turris and JVR to pick from...or left overs from Nico aka Patrick. 

 

If we had the 2nd overall the previous year, no one is complaining about Laine.

 

Patrick is not Laine. We got 'weak' 2nd overall picks both times. 'Tis the nature of it, I guess. It's out of our control... unless you're Toronto and you tank on purpose. 

 

Is that what anyone here wants? A real tank?

[jammer2]

14 minutes ago, brelic said:

We got 'weak' 2nd overall picks both times.

 

  Yeah, we were just totally unlucky to suck on the off draft years. It is really early to make this call, but just off the top of my head (at least for right now, lot's of variables to unlock) I figure in 3 or 4 years Patrick becomes a well rounded 25/25 guy that gives a good solid effort night in and night out. Basically, a bigger, stronger, faster and smarter version of Schenn (Flyer numbers, not Blues...haha). That might be close to his top-end value. At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think he can get any worse than a third line 15/15 kinda guy. I would definitely lean towards the first set of numbers. Who knows, I guess 30/25 is not out of the question. 

25 minutes ago, brelic said:

Patrick is not Laine. We got 'weak' 2nd overall picks both times. 'Tis the nature of it, I guess. It's out of our control... unless you're Toronto and you tank on purpose. 

 

 

 I honestly think the fan base is too proud to put up with a tanking scenario. I don't think Hexy is capable of some sort of grandiose tanking scheme. Ditto for Hakstol, who seems ultra competitive himself. To much competitive spirit through the whole org to make tanking a reality. 

 

 Historically, the Flyers rarely do well with top 3 picks. Mel Bridgemen was a solid player for a lot of years, but certainly no star. Then came the worst of all time, Ryan Sittler, Derek's son. How did anyone in the Flyers org actually think having a Sittler (well, we had his Dad also, for a cup of coffee) in the O&B would be a worthwhile venture???   Some bad scouting right there, cause Ryan could not skate his way out of a Walmart shopping bag. He had bust written all over him before he even slipped on a jersey on his draft day. Sad.

[RonJeremy]

I was never really high on Patrick,  I thought we were gonna trade down and draft Vilardi, Glass or Rasmussen. I wouldn’t be surprised if these guys end up being much better than Patrick. To me he is plain  vanilla, nothing really stands out about him, but he was considered NHL ready, so we took him.

[jammer2]

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I was never really high on Patrick,  I thought we were gonna trade down and draft Vilardi, Glass or Rasmussen. I wouldn’t be surprised if these guys end up being much better than Patrick. To me he is plain  vanilla, nothing really stands out about him, but he was considered NHL ready, so we took him.

1

 

 He struck me the same way, just kinda vanilla. Nothing he does is electric, lift you out of the seat type stuff. He does not exude much shiftiness or elusiveness. I think eventually he will try to apply the bull in a china shop type of game, except he's not really big enough to pull off that type of approach. Because his frame is decent, he may be able to pack on some pounds to make the physical style more viable. Austin Matthews plays this type of game, he's around the same size but elite speed and moves allow him to do basically whatever he wants. Austin has already perfected gaining leverage against d-men and using his size and speed to dramatically enhance separation from the defender. I fear Patrick will never have that skill set, which is what most power forwards need in their back pocket in order to be successful. 

 

His skating does not stick out, its just kinda adequate. Nico skates better seems to have better vision, is more creative, 3 of the main reasons why he went first in my books. Nico is also more elusive. 

 

 Best case scenario, Patrick turns into a David Backes type of player. That is not really befitting a #2 pick overall. You are dead on, it is quite possible that Glass, Vilardi and Rasmussen all turn out to be more productive. Vilardi skates just a tad better than Patrick, but his calling card is an elite release. His wrists are lightning quick and he gets tons of velocity off a wrister or snap shot. Gabe WILL put the puck in the net in the NHL, I think he's a 30 goal scorer. I have Patrick coming in under the 30 goal mark. Glass can skate circles around them both. 

 

 If we went back in time, I think we would see the Flyers move back 20 spots or so and select Toivonen, who is just tearing up the KHL at the moment, a kid playing against men. Perhaps they get an extra 1st for moving so far back....but hey, real easy to point it out after the fact....LOL!  I guess this kids game just took off when he started the year in the K. He was widely considered to have the hardest and most accurate shot of anyone in the draft. 

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=187581

 

 You *just* do not see those kinda stats from a 18 year old (turns 19 in April) in the KHL. In fact, most kids, no matter how talented, end up playing on the 3rd or 4th lines. 29 pts in 30 games....against men??  That is crazy and the Blues may have got the ultimate sleeper real late in the 1st of 2017. 

[icehole]

20 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

And to further make you Schenn lover's mad wouldn't it at least be more fair to at least let Frost and the other 1st draft reach at least Brayden's ripe ol age of 26 to judge???

 

I mean for all we know right now we could have "two of the best players currently not playing in the NHL" on our hands then what could we say????

 

And for the record i'm not telling anyone how they should judge the trade. Feel free to feel however you like about it. But i knew this day would come as soon as he had any type of success.

 

And as @JR Ewing whom i would call an unbiased poster here put it is impossible for them to continue playing as well as they are.

 

So we will see.

You know I have no patience.  I never had to endure such a stretch of bad, boring hockey before.  All I've ever known is entertaining hockey.  The flyers have always been competitive.  If they weren't competitive for small stretches, they were at least fun.

 

This new era of flyers hockey has made me lose the game a little.  Their veterans are bland and uninspiring, and besides the creativeness of gost every once in a while, the youth core that Hextall brought in is just boring.  Nobody shows me anything more than slow, gradual improvement, if any. 

 

I want to be pleasantly surprised by someone.  I want to think Hextall got a steal with a player he drafted late.  I hear that every draft year but it never pans out. 

 

I want to have the rookie of the year or at least the best rookie in his position, but that never happens.  If I hear about a guy who's lighting it up in juniors or the AHL, I want him on the team ASAP, and I want him to make a splash in the NHL.

 

Somebody said the other day that they'd rather call up veccione that martel because veccione is more defensively responsible while martel is more of a scoring threat.  What is up with that type of thinking around here lately?  The team can't score goals and we want to see a defensively responsible player called up???  Couturier was that player for 6 years and it didn't help the team at all.  He finally has a chance to losen up a bit, and now he's flourishing.  

 

For  the record, the schenn deal itself doesn't really hurt me that much.  I know he underwhelmed a lot of people (obviously more because of the system and teammates he had to play with).  I'm more upset with the new era of thinking in flyerland.  We live in an era where it's great to trade known talent for unknown late draft picks.  We live in an era where everyone likes watching guys slowly develope in some lower league and project them to be a star in 10 years.

 

Here's the truth.  You guys are all smarter than me.  You watch more lower level hockey, and you study more young players.  I think by doing so though, you are making it more difficult than it has to be.  A dumb guy like me watches NHL games and asks "is he producing?  Can he skate as fast or faster than the guys he plays against?  Can he stick with the guys he's defending? is he creating scoring chances?  Do I even notice him on the ice in games?"  I can't say those things for most of this young "talent". 

 

So I'm not going to get excited about another "project" that we'll see in another 5 years.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, icehole said:

You know I have no patience.  I never had to endure such a stretch of bad, boring hockey before.  All I've ever known is entertaining hockey.  The flyers have always been competitive.  If they weren't competitive for small stretches, they were at least fun.

 

This new era of flyers hockey has made me lose the game a little.  Their veterans are bland and uninspiring, and besides the creativeness of gost every once in a while, the youth core that Hextall brought in is just boring.  Nobody shows me anything more than slow, gradual improvement, if any. 

 

I want to be pleasantly surprised by someone.  I want to think Hextall got a steal with a player he drafted late.  I hear that every draft year but it never pans out. 

 

I want to have the rookie of the year or at least the best rookie in his position, but that never happens.  If I hear about a guy who's lighting it up in juniors or the AHL, I want him on the team ASAP, and I want him to make a splash in the NHL.

 

Somebody said the other day that they'd rather call up veccione that martel because veccione is more defensively responsible while martel is more of a scoring threat.  What is up with that type of thinking around here lately?  The team can't score goals and we want to see a defensively responsible player called up???  Couturier was that player for 6 years and it didn't help the team at all.  He finally has a chance to losen up a bit, and now he's flourishing.  

 

For  the record, the schenn deal itself doesn't really hurt me that much.  I know he underwhelmed a lot of people (obviously more because of the system and teammates he had to play with).  I'm more upset with the new era of thinking in flyerland.  We live in an era where it's great to trade known talent for unknown late draft picks.  We live in an era where everyone likes watching guys slowly develope in some lower league and project them to be a star in 10 years.

 

Here's the truth.  You guys are all smarter than me.  You watch more lower level hockey, and you study more young players.  I think by doing so though, you are making it more difficult than it has to be.  A dumb guy like me watches NHL games and asks "is he producing?  Can he skate as fast or faster than the guys he plays against?  Can he stick with the guys he's defending? is he creating scoring chances?  Do I even notice him on the ice in games?"  I can't say those things for most of this young "talent". 

 

So I'm not going to get excited about another "project" that we'll see in another 5 years.

This is one of the best written posts I've ever read. Period. 

[RonJeremy]

@icehole, I agree with you , the last 4 or 5 years has been the most boring period of Flyers hockey I could ever recall. I used to watch or listen to every game since the 74 season . Now I only watch a handful of games. The team really has no personality and no fire. In the old days ,as you said , the team came out to play every night. In the old days even if we weren’t winning , we had entertaining players with personality and if we lost we at least beat the crap out of someone or at least took the body and played some tough spirited hockey. Is it me , or did the sports , music and movie industry all become an absolute bore .