Who should replace Hakstol?

[ruxpin]

@OccamsRazor

 

I don't want anything to do with him because I believe him to be a ridiculously over-valued coach, but it would be a hoot to have the Flyers hire Lindy Ruff just to watch HockeyJunkie's head explode.

 

Honestly, the problem would be that mine might, too.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

@OccamsRazor

 

I don't want anything to do with him because I believe him to be a ridiculously over-valued coach, but it would be a hoot to have the Flyers hire Lindy Ruff just to watch HockeyJunkie's head explode.

 

Honestly, the problem would be that mine might, too.

 

Yikes.

 

I would go with Sutter first.

 

I couldn't live with Junk spamming the board up...then he would say we need to trade for Miller.

 

Then my head would explode!!!

 

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yikes.

 

I would go with Sutter first.

 

I couldn't live with Junk spamming the board up...then he would say we need to trade for Miller.

 

Then my head would explode!!!

 

 

I would go with Sutter before Ruff, for sure.

 

But I don't really want either.   I think the game plan to either give Hakstol the year OR replace wth Knoblauch as interim are the ways to go.  Because I think you probably have several options not currently available immediately after the season.

 

And if you stick with Hakstol, maybe this team ends up surprising and the whole conversation is moot.

[pilldoc]

13 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

@OccamsRazor

 

I don't want anything to do with him because I believe him to be a ridiculously over-valued coach, but it would be a hoot to have the Flyers hire Lindy Ruff just to watch HockeyJunkie's head explode.

 

Honestly, the problem would be that mine might, too.

 

What are you trying to do....scar me for life! LOL

 

Of course seeing HJ's head explode would be worth it! LOL

[icehole]

11 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Sean Couturier says "hello" 

Quite the contrary I believe.  I believe Hak as well as the previous coach held him back.  He finally tinkered with the right combo and couturier is showing that he can actually play.  I don't see that as him getting better under Hak.

[icehole]

10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't know.  I really do buy @hf101's argument about an absurdly young team, this is what we wanted, what did we expect?  That, to me, would explain inconsistency and even a losing streak.  But, for reasons I already stated in this thread, and some you and others have stated, I just think he's not the guy.

 

I know it's a young team so I can tolerate inconsistency and sometimes stupidity.  But the thing is they are consistent.  They are consistent at not showing any signs of any great skills or skating ability. 

 

I can't think of a good example right now, but I know you know of the type of player I'm talking about.  A player disappears for 5 games but in game 6 he has a 3 or 4 point night including a goal where he blew by everyone on a breakaway.  Then he disappears for 5 more games. Thats the sign of a young player with the ability to be good one day.  I haven't seen any signs of anything good from these players. 

 

Martel had that breakaway in the first 10 minutes of the game on Wednesday, and that's all I needed.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, icehole said:

A player disappears for 5 games but in game 6 he has a 3 or 4 point night including a goal where he blew by everyone on a breakaway. Then he disappears for 5 more games. 

 

Brayden Schenn? What does he have to do with anything?

[ruxpin]

50 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Brayden Schenn? What does he have to do with anything?

I thought of exactly him when I read that. 

 

He actually could be the flagship of poor player management /development by Hakstol. I think there were other factors regarding him, but I think it's a viable argument. 

[jammer2]

 This team would be stinky with anyone as coach. That does excuse Hak for the brutal state of things. Here are the GLARING problems, it's special teams pure and simple. As someone astutly pointed out, last year it's 5x5 play, that was fixed but the pp and pk, two things that could be counted on most nights have gone to crap. PK sits at 4th worse in the league, and pp is also 4th worst in the league. That is on the coach, cause he has the ability to hire and fire specialty coaches, and he failed in that area. The pp was made much worse ever since Knoblauch arrived. May be some personnel on top of it.....but it's a result based league, and they are JUST not getting the job done. 

 

If Hexy wants an out, he can blame the pk and pp coaches and give Hak another kick at the can in finding the right fits on the pp and pk. They will have to pick things up and make the playoffs should Hak hope to retain his job. I think that is the fine line that must be crossed, they make the playoffs and Hak stays, they miss....he is out. 

[jammer2]

10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I would go with Sutter before Ruff, for sure.

 

 

 

 I swear, if this team hired Ruff, I would consider not watching till he is gone. He SUCKS. Met him one time, he was shitfaced and kept asking to "borrow" smokes from me. Quite the ego on that guy, he was in Windsor scouting Ed Jovo Cop (who was ranked first that year btw). This guy was the head scout for the Panthers, but there we were, arguing about Ed's upside. Specifically, his offensive upside. I maintained that the offense he was putting on display would not follow him to the NHL...he disagreed vehemently...even stated he would get 60+ points multiple times. Of course, he was wrong....and on top of it, did not seem to able to handle his drinking buzz...very sloppy drunk. Coach of the Flyers....no thanks. 

[jammer2]

 In the end, I think the Flyers can do better than Hakstol. As somebody else pointed out, the Flyers have no real system. They don't even send players in on the forecheck with consistency. Other teams send 1deep, or 2 deep on the forecheck, Flyers have no rhyme or reason. Hey, I get that Laughton and Leier make good solid linemates....but they are two players in the bottom 6 who fail to score on any kind of regular basis.  

 

 When you have 2 lines on your team that fail to score ( 2nd line does not exactly kill it on most nights either, note Simmonds poor year to date)...you MUST start implementing a defense first kind of system. More clogging the neutral zone, more of players leaving the offensive zone early to avoid odd man breaks. You have to play the hand you are given and make the most of that hand. In' Hak's case, it would be admitting the Flyers are not great on offense and to get more points, you need a defense-first philosophy. The goaltending has been mediocre, another in a long list of reasons defense first is the way to go with this team. The fact Hak does not recognize that is one of the main problems I have with him. 

 

 I would not make a change just for the hell of it, but if an obvious upgrade is out there, you go get him. My favourite coach is Bruce Boudreau, but alas....just signed a 12 mill 4 year deal with the Wild. Now there is a coach who knows how to cater to his player's skill sets and adjust on the fly accordingly!

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Could they both be really gone by February if it don't get better??

 

[Bertmega]

What happened to his Stare ™ that was supposed to put the fear of God into a player? Or that since he is an outside the "organization" coach that he'll never play favorites?

 

This shall be the Flyers next coach...

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Bertmega said:

that was supposed to put the fear of God into a player?

 

 

That apparently only works on college kids who are to busy finding beer money.

 

Not so much on guys making as much or more than him.

 

As others hinted on earlier when comparing Hak to Chip Kelly.

 

It is different trying to teach and motivate kids wanting badly to get to the big game than trying to teach motivate millionaires who have already arrived.

 

Maybe there is something to this.

 

If that is the case it is on Ron to notice this and take the next step before more time is wasted.

[King Knut]

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

As for the coach, yelling at the refs and losing his temper isn't a smart move most of the time.  However, I truly believe there have been times when coaches get calls because refs are afraid of them.  Torts gets calls his way...Ive seen it.

 

 

No one's talking about losing his temper.  What I'm talking about is the kind of jabbering and needling coaches like Quenville and Weight and others (I will not go as far as that whiney brat Tortorella though) do.  They simply let the ref know that they screwed up and that it's unfair and unacceptable.  They don't throw a hissy fit.  They yell to be heard, and out of frustration, but they don't lose control.

 

HOWEVER.  The next time One of Hak's players get's knocked silly with a head hit or a boarding penalty that isn't called, I actually do support him losing his marbles a bit but for completely different reasons which I'll detail below:

 

I believe that on teams of every level, be they hockey teams or small business or groups within a corporate structure, the timbre of the team takes its cues from the leadership.

 

If you have a boss or if your boss has a boss that's a whiney brat and blames everything that ever goes wrong on the people below him, then you tend to have a team without cohesion that is willing to backstab each other at any moment and in the end functions on fear within the chaos instead of efficiently and towards well defined goals.  

 

Right now, this team has no heart.  This team has no guys.  They have no gumption.  The have no killer attitude.  They don't seem to care much about each other or whether they win or lose.  Is it any wonder when you see their coach's reactions to losing?  When you see his reactions to his players getting screwed over?  When you see his reactions to his players pooping the bed night in and night out (I'm looking at you Lehtera and Weise)?  When you see his reactions to his young players looking good, but needing to work out kinks (Morin, Sanheim, etc).

 

He's a terrible leader.  Terrible manager.  Terrible organizer.  Terrible director.    

 

So back to the idea of a coach losing his marbles "on purpose"  It can let your players know you actually give a damn.  About them. About winning.  About the game.  So if they send Simmonds off for an imaginary cross check or Ghost gets concussed out of a game again, I wouldn't have a problem with Hakstol absolutely "Losing it" on purpose (even if he isn't really upset) to at least demonstrate that he gives a damn.

 

Right now he doesn't seem to care whether they win or lose, get hurt, stay healthy, score, get scored on... anything.  he's a stone.  

 

If a leader doesn't seem like he wants to win, the team will not feel like it wants to win.  And before you all go off telling me, "They're professionals, they shouldn't need that." I beg you to look to your own lives.  Your own jobs.  Think about if you've ever had a good boss and if you've ever had a bad boss and if you've ever had a job that you wanted to do well at and if you've had a job where you just didn't give a rip and you were there for the paycheck.

 

I've had all of the above.  And I try harder, do better work and am more efficient, when i have a job I care about, am doing work I care about and have a boss that seems to care about it and want us to do well too.  

 

When I have a boss who doesn't seem to know what he/she is doing and doesn't seem to care at all about it... it's really hard for me to care.

 

Of course they're hockey players and want to win.  But how much?  Because just wanting to isn't enough if the rest of the league cares about winning a WHOLE LOT MORE.  Right now everyone else and everyone else's coaches all seem to give a LOT MORE OF A DAMN about winning than either Hakstol or his players.  

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

It is clear to me. They are going to have to find a way around the refs.

 

They aren't going to get the boarding calls to there players (see the Komarov hit on Ghost) and are going to called for every tap on the hands they deliever to the opposing players (see the Jake tap called in the last Islander game) so the only way around down is to straight out play the other team and get a nice lead and try to play as disciplined as possible and not not let the refs effect the game.

 

I know i know easier said than done.

 

But it the only way.

 

Yelling at the refs ain't going to do anything to help and may even piss them off further. Sorry i get it.

[King Knut]

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

My bigger concern with Hak is his system...Im not sure he has one.  Nothing defines the way this team plays.  When Lavi was put in place, you could see what his plan was immediately.  The players responded to it and it got them far.

 

 

Sorry I'll be more brief from now on.

 

I actually like his systems.  The team doesn't get pinned in it's own zone very often (or they didn't to start the year) and they tend to win the possession and play driving games and they had (for a while anyway) moved away from the dump and chase and shot from the point mentality that destroyed last year -presumably because their defense was so bad they couldn't really attempt controlled entries.  Right now they have one line that's a controlled entry machine and three lines that can't figure it out anymore. 

 

The greater problem with Hak's systems is that he can't make adjustments to them in-game.  They OWNED the Islanders friday night until toward the end of the game.  In between periods, the Islanders made adjustments (much the way a football team can be losing at the end of a half and then win the game by 21 points by making adjustments based on what they observed in the first half).  In return, Hakstol had no answers for the adjstments.  He couldn't tell his team, "Hey look... they're dropping a trailing attacker behind a decoy and you're not seeing him until it's too late... here's how to tweak that."  So the Islanders came back and eventually won in OT.  Adjustments are his larger problem.  His systems often get his team the lead when they're not playing teams that can shut down the Ginger line.  

 

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

As for the players, I'm not sure.  They can't be talentless bums after all of this hype...could they?  

 

 

No they're not.  They're actually quite good and better than most.  They're being coached very very poorly.  

 

The next time you're tempted to type that the team "just isn't talented enough." like everyone else on this board, think about this as far as this board's particular ability to judge talent:  1)  Most here said Giroux was done and should be traded.  2)  Most here said the same thing about Voracek... he was terrible.  God awful.  3)  Most here thought Couturier was useless or at best had a good role as a third or fourth line shut down center.   4)  Most here though Carter was a waste of space and a bum.  I could go on.  

 

MOST OF US HERE ARE CRAP AT JUDGING TALENT.  

This is not an untalented team.  This is actually a pretty talented team.  Yes, they are green.  Yes, they are being mismanaged DURING the games.  I've said this about Hak before... he seems to be great in between games and before seasons.  I actually like what he intends to do.  But from the minute he fills out the roster card to the end of the game, he seems to have absolutely no idea what he's doing.   

 

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

Guys like TK, sanheim, or Hagg, or Patrick, I just don't see it for some reason. 

 

I can see what you're saying if you're looking at the score sheets or the highlight reels, but frankly, Sanheim is already emerging as the team's 2nd most talented Defenseman.  He's got incredible poise and puck sense and moving ability in the offensive zone and has already far surpassed Ghost in his own end.  Provo is the best overall and far and away the best inside his own blue line.  Ghost is far and away the best in the neutral zone and moving the puck forward.  But even at this early stage in his career, Sanheim already looks to be one of the best if not the best on the team in the offensive zone.  Sanheim is coming along very well.

 

Hagg has been phenomenal.  I'm really not sure what you're looking at.  In his own zone, he's already 2nd only to Provo.  He's not flashy.  He's not going to blow you away with a highlight reel play, but he does all the little positioning things so well that the highlight reel plays aren't as necessary when he's out there.  We're already getting almost exactly what you'd want from Hagg.

 

TK has been playing the majority of his time with the likes of Lehtera and Weise.  God help him.  Connor McDavid couldn't do much with those two anchors.  At a certain point, he's going to get with a decent line mate or two and he's going to make a few mental connections and the goals are gong to start to come in waves.  

Like Weal however, his biggest problem right now is his size.  What's hurting both of them is that FIlppula has dropped off dramatically since the early goings and can't create a zone entry to save his life anymore, meanwhile Hakstol keeps playing a system that requires Filppula to generate zone entries.  Also, Simmonds is playing hurt and looking pretty crappy (though he has started to look a little better and even scored the other night, he still doesn't look like he's skating right).

 

Patrick is 19 and has missed time with a concussion and is also playing with the likes of Weise and Lehtera and an injured Simmonds.  

His puck skills are probably unmatched on the team.  They just need to sort out how to help get him in a position to use them.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

Whether it's the coach or players, there's one person we can blame for the way the team is playing, and that's Hextall.  He puts it all together.  He's either failing with the coaching staff, or he's failing with the players on the ice.  There's way more invested in the players on the ice, so I think he has to look at replacing the staff.  These young players could move on to different teams and haunt you forever.  I don't see that happening with the coach.

 

I believe you are right here.  And as you can tell from the above, I don't think it's the players lacking skill.  Experience maybe, but not skill or talent.  

 

There was no reason not to waive Lethera and Weise earlier in the year.  There was no reason to bring up Alt again after Morin got healthy.  Those decisions are on Hextall.

 

But if he's okay with Lehtera, Weise and Manning being in the lineup tonight against the penguins, then.. I don't know what to do with any of them.  

 

 

On 11/25/2017 at 6:07 AM, icehole said:

Whether it's the coach or players, there's one person we can blame for the way the team is playing, and that's Hextall.  He puts it all together.  He's either failing with the coaching staff, or he's failing with the players on the ice.  There's way more invested in the players on the ice, so I think he has to look at replacing the staff.  These young players could move on to different teams and haunt you forever.  I don't see that happening with the coach.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

As others hinted on earlier when comparing Hak to Chip Kelly.

 

 

The haunting part for me is that like Kelly, Hak's college team went on to finally win the national championship AS SOON AS HE LEFT FOR THE PROS.  

[King Knut]

On 11/25/2017 at 11:50 PM, ruxpin said:

I thought of exactly him when I read that. 

 

He actually could be the flagship of poor player management /development by Hakstol. I think there were other factors regarding him, but I think it's a viable argument. 

 

You say player management/development, I say Tarasenko, Schwartz and Pietrangelo.   

 

Schenn always had talent and value, but his talent and value are not the kind you're really able to build a team around.  He's a piece that you can add to making something that already clicks, click a little better.  

 

His particular skill set wasn't really functional with the skill sets of the Flyers already.  There was no place to drop him in and let things happen. 

 

Maybe if they'd tried shifting Giroux back to wing while Schenn was here, that might have worked, but if we're HONESTLY honest, there was nothing about Schenn's play while he was here that suggested he was going to suddenly be a responsible two way back checking center, which is what is required by both Hakstol's system and Berube's pitiful excuse for a system.

 

When Schenn looked the best and showed the most promise was under Laviolette (who was an offensively minded kind of coach).  Is it any wonder that was also the last time Couturier looked like he might turn into the guy we see now?

 

Long story short is that it wasn't going to work out here for Schenn unless the Flyers changed everything about their philosophy and their system... and brought in Tarasenko.  

 

Side note:  IF Hitchcock is still the Blues Coach, theres no way this is happening for Schenn in St. Louis, even with Tarasenko. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

The haunting part for me is that like Kelly, Hak's college team went on to finally win the national championship AS SOON AS HE LEFT FOR THE PROS.  

 

No Oregon has not won the title since he left.

 

They did play in the title game but took a beat down and their best WR was suspended before the game for smoking weed.

[King Knut]

On 11/25/2017 at 12:15 PM, murraycraven said:

 

So now you are blaming Hak after you claimed how great of a tactician he is/was?  

 

I have never been on the Hak train but this is kind of what you should expect from a very young ans mediocre team.    If anything I am laying this on Hextall.   Hextall is trying to win while rebuilding while constantly stuck in neutral.

 

With that said the Coach is usually the one that gets the short end.   If they replaced Hak today I could care less bc he and the coaching staff have really shown  me nothing...  Lappy must have nudes of Hextall in his safe... 

 

I've said this before about him and I continue to have little evidence to the contrary:  He is a good X's and O's kind of coach, but he is crap IN GAME and behind the bench.

 

It's possible to be both.  They are not mutually exclusive.   

 

He is bad at adjusting on the fly. 

He is bad at reading the momentum of the game. 

He is bad at communicating with the refs.

He doesn't seem to believe that there is an emotional component to the game at all. 

 

He seems to think that it's like stratomatic or maybe EA.  That players play with the same intensity and that X+Y always = Z and if it doesn't he's utterly stymied, so he shifts lines around a bit and hopes for the best.

 

If this were Stratomatic, He'd be coach of the year... but there's more to leading a team than a system.  Especially when the opposing teams have staffs smart enough to adjust and start to crack your system.  

 

 

 

On 11/25/2017 at 12:15 PM, murraycraven said:

 

So now you are blaming Hak after you claimed how great of a tactician he is/was?  

 

I have never been on the Hak train but this is kind of what you should expect from a very young ans mediocre team.    If anything I am laying this on Hextall.   Hextall is trying to win while rebuilding while constantly stuck in neutral.

 

With that said the Coach is usually the one that gets the short end.   If they replaced Hak today I could care less bc he and the coaching staff have really shown  me nothing...  Lappy must have nudes of Hextall in his safe... 

 

[FD19372]

3 hours ago, Bertmega said:

What happened to his Stare ™ that was supposed to put the fear of God into a player? Or that since he is an outside the "organization" coach that he'll never play favorites?

 

This shall be the Flyers next coach...

 

or maybe even  https://i.ytimg.com/vi/58xFtLKg0cM/maxresdefault.jpg

[King Knut]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

No Oregon has not won the title since he left.

 

They did play in the title game but took a beat down and their best WR was suspended before the game for smoking weed.

 

Sorry, I forgot.  I block it out whenever Ohio State wins.  

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

You say player management/development, I say Tarasenko, Schwartz and Pietrangelo.   

 

Schenn always had talent and value, but his talent and value are not the kind you're really able to build a team around.  He's a piece that you can add to making something that already clicks, click a little better.  

 

His particular skill set wasn't really functional with the skill sets of the Flyers already.  There was no place to drop him in and let things happen. 

 

Maybe if they'd tried shifting Giroux back to wing while Schenn was here, that might have worked, but if we're HONESTLY honest, there was nothing about Schenn's play while he was here that suggested he was going to suddenly be a responsible two way back checking center, which is what is required by both Hakstol's system and Berube's pitiful excuse for a system.

 

When Schenn looked the best and showed the most promise was under Laviolette (who was an offensively minded kind of coach).  Is it any wonder that was also the last time Couturier looked like he might turn into the guy we see now?

 

Long story short is that it wasn't going to work out here for Schenn unless the Flyers changed everything about their philosophy and their system... and brought in Tarasenko.  

 

Side note:  IF Hitchcock is still the Blues Coach, theres no way this is happening for Schenn in St. Louis, even with Tarasenko. 

 

 

Agree with every.single.word.    Terrific post.

[brelic]

Well, this is a pretty strong public indictment of Hakstol by an actual journalist. 

 

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2017/11/time-for-a-change-what-needs-to-happen-now-after-islanders-5-flyers-4.html

 

Does ASF still write for the DST?