Building just like Hexy/Lombo did?

[icehole]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Who do you prefer right now...Provorov, or Pronger? 

 

 

Ya, we get it...you'd prefer to have Pronger and all those great years he once had filling up a huge chunk of the cap than what is clearly an up and coming top pair defenceman. There's a cap now....you can't buy a cup. And Philly never did. Even though they tried for two decades. As did the Leafs...for four.

 

 

 Absolutely....if you're not a big picture kind of guy. There's not a team in the league that wouldn't love to have Patrick/Hagg/Sanheim/Provorov or Konecny. Are they good players yet? Nope. But anyone with hockey sense can see they all have potential to be.

 

 

 If we both started building a house at the same time, but yours was already half built and brand new, and my property had an asbestos mine/lead smelter on it that I had to demolish and then start building, would it be fair to say you're doing a better job than I am cause you were done sooner? 

 

 Holmgren basically left Hextall an asbestos mine/lead smelter to demolish before he could build his new home. 

Would I take a hall of famer over a kid that has shown some potential but hasn't wow'd me yet (not a knock on provorov but what exactly has he done)?  Probably. 

 

Cap cap cap.  Hextall has made all of these moves to shave years off contracts, clear cap space, and play young players that don't make any money.  Yet, they are still up against the cap.  He clears space with Hartnel, pronger, and lecavelier, only to bring in umberger, weise, Lehtera.

 

They have potential to be?  How many players have the potential to be good players?  How many of those players live up to that potential?  Are you sure anyone with hockey sense can see the potential or are you just assuming, because that's what flyers blind loyalists do?

 

Has Hextall made any bad draft picks or any bad moves at all?  I can't think of any that the majority of people on here would say is a bad move.  And here we are, just finished a 10 game losing streak, and not one young player is that guy you can say "it will all get better because we have this guy". 

 

If circumstances cause you to start building your house way after me, I wouldn't hold that against you.  If you planted trees so that you would one day have "special" wood to build your house, while I just got some pine from home depot, that's your stupidity.

 

I guess no other new GMs get left with garbage.  Prior GMs usually get fired because they were doing such a good job and have the team set up to win right?

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

He clears space with Hartnel, pronger, and lecavelier, only to bring in umberger, weise, Lehtera.

 

Let's start with Umberger/Hartnell since they go hand in hand.  In the long run bringing Umberger in was cheaper than keeping Hartnell around.  Sure Umberger sucked, but only for 2 years while he was here.  Umby's Cap hit ends after this year.  Hartnell has a 35+ contract which would have had a 4.75 million cap hit for 2 more years!  He has played 16 games and has 4G, 3A for 7 pts ....yeah talk about gross overpayment. Sheesh ...  So Hexy moved a bad contract for a player with a slight better contract who still ultimately sucked, but at least Umby's cap hit of 1.5 million will be off the books at the end of this year.

 

Lehtera....(groaning) are you seriously going down this road again. (SMH)  Lehtera was the price Hexy had to pay for the Flyers to get back into the 2017 Draft AND get St.Louis's 2018 1st round pick.  His contract end at the end of next year.

 

Weise ok at 2.3 million until 2019-20.  Yeah..well that one is a dud.  You want to gloat on that bad move by Hexy be my guest. After all Hexy is not perfect.  Sometimes things just don't turn out like you plan.  Crap happens.

 

1 hour ago, icehole said:

Yet, they are still up against the cap

 

You are flat out wrong here .....  they have  ..... CURRENT CAP SPACE : $3,782,426

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

 

 

Would you like to recant your statement?????   If you are going to make a statement like that, please do some research first.  (SMH)

[flyercanuck]

6 hours ago, icehole said:

Would I take a hall of famer over a kid that has shown some potential but hasn't wow'd me yet (not a knock on provorov but what exactly has he done)?  Probably. 

 

 

 

 

And there it is....you'd prefer a guy who isn't even playing anymore over a really good young player because of what he once did for the most part on other teams. That doesn't even make any sense...which is exactly how Homer operated. 

[icehole]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

And there it is....you'd prefer a guy who isn't even playing anymore over a really good young player because of what he once did for the most part on other teams. That doesn't even make any sense...which is exactly how Homer operated. 

This could be the dumbest point I've ever seen on this forum.  You were actually asking me if I'd rather have a player that doesn't (or can't because of age and/or health reasons) play any more over a current player that does play?  What is the point your trying to make?  What's your next question...would I take gretsky over weise?  So because weise still plays, he is better than the greatest player of all time?

 

I'd take pronger in his prime over provorov.  I'd take pronger when the flyers got him over provorov.  I wouldn't take pronger that sits in a dark room with headaches over provorov.  Therefore provorov is much better than pronger.

 

Does that do it for you?  Are we on the same page now?

[pilldoc]

46 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'd take pronger in his prime over provorov.  I'd take pronger when the flyers got him over provorov

 

Just stop it! Are you seriously making this statement????   How in bloody hell can you compare Pronger prime at 35 (the age when the Flyers acquired him) and 16 NHL season under his belt to a 20 year old Provorov who just completed his rookie season.  It is mind boggling how you come up with this stuff.   

Here are Pronger's Stats after his Rookie Year and 2nd Year:

 

Now let's compare them to Provorov's Rookie Year and 2nd Year

 

 

So after their Rookie Year's Provorov and Pronger are dead even.  If you want to argue PIM be my guest.  It is a non-factor in this discussion.

 

AND  during their 2nd year.... Provorov after 27 games is tied with Pronger at 43 games (obviously Pronger was hurt that year)

 

There is simply NO way you can compare Pronger at age 35 to Provorov at age 20.  You can't! 

 

As of now...statically they are dead even......  Get back to be in 15 year when Provorov is in his prime and we will revisit this discussion.

 

Here in lies the problem, you make blanket statements without doing any research then you get your tail feathers in a ruffle because you got called out on something. 

 

 

[icehole]

10 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

Just stop it! Are you seriously making this statement????   How in bloody hell can you compare Pronger prime at 35 (the age when the Flyers acquired him) and 16 NHL season under his belt to a 20 year old Provorov who just completed his rookie season.  It is mind boggling how you come up with this stuff.   

Here are Pronger's Stats after his Rookie Year and 2nd Year:

 

Now let's compare them to Provorov's Rookie Year and 2nd Year

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's ridiculous too!  I didn't bring it up.  I don't know why it was brought up in the first place.

 

 

[pilldoc]

17 minutes ago, icehole said:

I think it's ridiculous too!  I didn't bring it up.  I don't know why it was brought up in the first place.

 

 

 

Ahh .... must be a trick question to see if I had my morning coffee yet ....

 

and I quote again .....

 

11 hours ago, icehole said:

Would I take a hall of famer over a kid that has shown some potential but hasn't wow'd me yet (not a knock on provorov but what exactly has he done)?  Probably. 

 

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I'd take pronger in his prime over provorov.  I'd take pronger when the flyers got him over provorov.

 

to bring you up to date on your own posts..... YOU BROUGHT IT UP in the  first place.  (SMH)

 

This was in direct response to @flyercanuck calling you out on your notion that you only want players on the ice who can help you win now and if they can't you don't want to hear their name.  Guess what, it does not take rocket science that Provorov was a better defenseman  AS A ROOKIE than most of the veteran defensemen.  So yes he will be on the ice and yes he will make rookie mistakes.  Don't you think Pronger made mistakes as rookie?  Go yell at Hartford for putting him on the ice so young.  He too had to develop.

 

So in a round about way...you brought up this whole  discussion.

 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

Question: Who do you prefer right now...Provorov, or Pronger? 

 

Answer ; Would I take a hall of famer over a kid that has shown some potential but hasn't wow'd me yet (not a knock on provorov but what exactly has he done)?  Probably.

 

 

And who's statement are you calling the dumbest you've read on here? 

 

 

2 hours ago, icehole said:

This could be the dumbest point I've ever seen on this forum.  You were actually asking me if I'd rather have a player that doesn't (or can't because of age and/or health reasons) play any more over a current player that does play?  What is the point your trying to make?  What's your next question...would I take gretsky over weise?  So because weise still plays, he is better than the greatest player of all time?

 

I'd take pronger in his prime over provorov.  I'd take pronger when the flyers got him over provorov.  I wouldn't take pronger that sits in a dark room with headaches over provorov.  Therefore provorov is much better than pronger.

 

Does that do it for you?  Are we on the same page now?

 

The point is, you want to have all players that are already great, without having to actually draft or develop any of them.

 

Sports, in a capped league, just doesn't work that way. 

 

 You can't see potential in guys like Provorov, Hagg, Sanheim, Patrick or Konecny...I'll guess you hated pretty much every Flyer ever drafted and developed by them...cause not many came in gangbusters straight out of junior. If any.

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, icehole said:

This could be the dumbest point I've ever seen on this forum.

 

Lottsa competition for that title, and not just from you.

[aziz]

14 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't see this season as a tank, this sentence implies you do ?

tank, like trying to lose?  no, they aren't doing that.  they also aren't trying to win, from a management perspective.  they've embraced the rebuild idea, and if they can find success with the roster as it sits, then great, but they aren't going to try to improve the current on-ice product.  there won't be deadline deals for roster players, there won't be trades of 50-50 prospects for known quantity players.  the excuse/reasoning is built-in:  half the roster are youth and now isn't our time.  next year won't be our time, either.  the team has positioned itself to not be judged on in-game performance for the foreseeable future.  

 

in fact, you are already seeing it, look at how this very board is slowly working towards the idea of trading giroux, simmonds and voracek.  it is increasingly (at least from what i can see lurking some of the threads over the last month) moving from a "should they trade..." to "when should they trade...".  this board is prepping itself to have the current core moved for picks/prospects over the next few years.  so...if those happen 2, 3, 4 years from now, and the returns from those deals will take another 3, 4, 5 years to be impact NHL players, we're up to, what, 5, 7, 9 years before the team is ready to be judged on whether it can win hockey games? 

 

yeah, no, thanks.

[icehole]

48 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Question: Who do you prefer right now...Provorov, or Pronger? 

 

Answer ; Would I take a hall of famer over a kid that has shown some potential but hasn't wow'd me yet (not a knock on provorov but what exactly has he done)?  Probably.

 

 

And who's statement are you calling the dumbest you've read on here? 

 

 

 

The point is, you want to have all players that are already great, without having to actually draft or develop any of them.

 

Sports, in a capped league, just doesn't work that way. 

 

 You can't see potential in guys like Provorov, Hagg, Sanheim, Patrick or Konecny...I'll guess you hated pretty much every Flyer ever drafted and developed by them...cause not many came in gangbusters straight out of junior. If any.

I thought it was insinuated that we were talking about "active" pronger and not retired for 5 years pronger.

 

Anyway, I'm backing out of this one.  We won't see eye to eye because you like what might be, and I like the way it used to be.  Good luck to you.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

 

Ahh .... must be a trick question to see if I had my morning coffee yet ....

 

and I quote again .....

 

 

to bring you up to date on your own posts..... YOU BROUGHT IT UP in the  first place.  (SMH)

 

This was in direct response to @flyercanuck calling you out on your notion that you only want players on the ice who can help you win now and if they can't you don't want to hear their name.  Guess what, it does not take rocket science that Provorov was a better defenseman  AS A ROOKIE than most of the veteran defensemen.  So yes he will be on the ice and yes he will make rookie mistakes.  Don't you think Pronger made mistakes as rookie?  Go yell at Hartford for putting him on the ice so young.  He too had to develop.

 

So in a round about way...you brought up this whole  discussion.

 

 

 

 

I didn't start the pronger conversation.  I was asked who I would take, so I replied with my opinion.  Does that mean I brought it up?

 

My reasoning for taking pronger is HOF.  Without even looking at any stat, you can't project a 20 year old to be HOF or better.  Therefore, you can't even project provorov to be better than pronger.

 

I should have just told him it was a stupid question from the start.

 

I told him that I'm backing out of this.  I've laid out my thoughts and I don't need to go any further.  Anyone on the Hextall train can hold out for the future.  My future look at flyers does not look great until the Hextall era is over.

[mojo1917]

14 minutes ago, aziz said:

there won't be deadline deals for roster players, there won't be trades of 50-50 prospects for known quantity players.  the excuse/reasoning is built-in:  half the roster are youth and now isn't our time.  next year won't be our time, either.  the team has positioned itself to not be judged on in-game performance for the foreseeable future.

 

Seems unlikely to me that this team will have a secure playoff seed at the deadline this year, unless they go on a tear.  So what trade of a prospect for a veteran would make sense in that scenario ?

 

I wholeheartedly agree, I will not be down for blowing a hole in the roster for magic beans when it comes to the VeeGees tm Radoran 

I don't think Schenn fits the model Hextall has in mind so, nor do I think Schenn fit with this group very well. So his departure doesn't have that same feel as a trade of Simmonds or Giroux would.

 

 

 

[aziz]

14 hours ago, King Knut said:

you gotta go off and be a malcontent for no good reason.

 

dunno about "no good reason."  i was a flyers fan for a long long time.  i can't really say that is the case, anymore.  between the league itself becoming less interesting year on year and the flyers having decided to take likely a decade off from being competitive, i find myself meh about the whole thing.  disinterested in how the game is evolving, and uninvested in a team that has decided to have a good long lay down.  the only real passion i can find is being kinda pissed off that the sport and team that i've spent 30-odd years following and obsessing over on an almost minute-to-minute basis have taken turns that i have no interest in following.

[pilldoc]

15 minutes ago, icehole said:

I should have just told him it was a stupid question from the start.

 

Bingo!  That is the best answer you could have posted!

 

16 minutes ago, icehole said:

My future look at flyers does not look great until the Hextall era is over.

 

1) you are going to have to wait a very long time

2) and just who do you want to replace him ....  ?? Do you really want to start over from scratch?   Sure go ahead get some no name GM to come in and trade away all the Draft Picks and all the top Prospects in an attempt to win now mode and in once that fails then this organization would be back at square one.  then you will complain because the farm system is devoid of talent again.  I get it you hate Hexy.  Amazing how little patience fans like you have in this process.  No one said this was going to be easy.

 

[King Knut]

41 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

dunno about "no good reason."  i was a flyers fan for a long long time.  i can't really say that is the case, anymore.  between the league itself becoming less interesting year on year and the flyers having decided to take likely a decade off from being competitive, i find myself meh about the whole thing.  disinterested in how the game is evolving, and uninvested in a team that has decided to have a good long lay down.  the only real passion i can find is being kinda pissed off that the sport and team that i've spent 30-odd years following and obsessing over on an almost minute-to-minute basis have taken turns that i have no interest in following.

 

Probably safer.  Following them has really sucked for the last month.  

[aziz]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Following them has really sucked for the last month.  

 

settle in, man, years left to go.

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

settle in, man, years left to go.

 

Yeah... don't think it's that far off myself.  But even so... it's been years already.  I've been waiting for this team to right the Karmic wrongs of the 2012-2015 stretch.  For me for now, getting back in a somewhat sane direction is something to root for.  

 

It's like if you've got a buddy who hits rock bottom.  You gotta stick with him at least to see him through those twelve steps.    

[aziz]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

It's like if you've got a buddy who hits rock bottom.  You gotta stick with him at least to see him through those twelve steps.  

 

i get your point, but a hockey team isn't my buddy.  i don't care about it for its own sake.  it's entertainment.  when entertainment decides to not be entertaining.... 

 

can you imagine a TV series deciding to not be fun to watch for a few years while they work through plot maneuvering so 4 seasons from now might be exciting?  i stopped watching the walking dead, too, and for essentially the same reasons.

[Podein25]

25 minutes ago, aziz said:

i stopped watching the walking dead, too, and for essentially the same reasons.

 

Same. The writing is atrocious.

[King Knut]

28 minutes ago, aziz said:

can you imagine a TV series deciding to not be fun to watch for a few years while they work through plot maneuvering so 4 seasons from now might be exciting?  i stopped watching the walking dead, too, and for essentially the same reasons.

 

Except a TV series is written ahead of time, plotted out, cast, directed, shot, edited, mixed and a finished product before you see it. 

It's a cake.  You know what you've got before you eat it.  A hockey team changes night to night.  Minute by minute.  It's alive.  It's like a cake that bakes while you're eating it.  

 

But whatever.  I hope you can find something you enjoy watching.  As an aside, the above is almost exactly what most successful TV serialized shows do.    They have a killer set up to hook you in... and if they're smart they have a bang up ending they're driving you to.  Everything in between is treading water.   Some do it better than others.

 

The Flyers do it better than the Sabres or Oilers have.

 

The Coyotes... I don't know.  Maybe they're like NCIS.  Utterly atrocious dreck... but there it is year after year.  Still not going away.  

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

Let's start with Umberger/Hartnell since they go hand in hand.  In the long run bringing Umberger in was cheaper than keeping Hartnell around.  Sure Umberger sucked, but only for 2 years while he was here.  Umby's Cap hit ends after this year.  Hartnell has a 35+ contract which would have had a 4.75 million cap hit for 2 more years!  He has played 16 games and has 4G, 3A for 7 pts ....yeah talk about gross overpayment. Sheesh ...  So Hexy moved a bad contract for a player with a slight better contract who still ultimately sucked, but at least Umby's cap hit of 1.5 million will be off the books at the end of this year.

 

Lehtera....(groaning) are you seriously going down this road again. (SMH)  Lehtera was the price Hexy had to pay for the Flyers to get back into the 2017 Draft AND get St.Louis's 2018 1st round pick.  His contract end at the end of next year.

 

Weise ok at 2.3 million until 2019-20.  Yeah..well that one is a dud.  You want to gloat on that bad move by Hexy be my guest. After all Hexy is not perfect.  Sometimes things just don't turn out like you plan.  Crap happens.

 

 

You are flat out wrong here .....  they have  ..... CURRENT CAP SPACE : $3,782,426

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

 

 

Would you like to recant your statement?????   If you are going to make a statement like that, please do some research first.  (SMH)

 

Actually becasue of bonuses and such, I think they're a little closer.  They're not up against it like they have been for the longest time, but they're not exactly free of the shackles either.

[radoran]

7 hours ago, aziz said:

 

i get your point, but a hockey team isn't my buddy.  i don't care about it for its own sake.  it's entertainment.  when entertainment decides to not be entertaining.... 

 

can you imagine a TV series deciding to not be fun to watch for a few years while they work through plot maneuvering so 4 seasons from now might be exciting?  i stopped watching the walking dead, too, and for essentially the same reasons.

 

I know where you are coming from. I've pretty much dropped the Phillies and haven't been remotely interested in the Sixers since the Iverson Final.

 

I watch the Eagles mostly because my fiancee is a HUGE football fan (Stillers, but still).

 

What I've discovered is that I'm a hockey fan first and foremost. I like the game. 

 

I root for the Flyers because they have "Philadelphia" in their name, but I just enjoy watching the sport.

 

I'm not down on the Flyers because I'm a malcontent, I'm down on them because they are simply not very good. It's that simple. And being a fan of the sport, I can see where they are in comparison to other teams - even developing teams - and they are pretty much wanting.

 

And we're fed the "in a few years" line I've been hearing... "For a few years" now.

 

I'll see where this all goes, but I'm not living and dying for sports any more.

 

I'm old. 

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I'll see where this all goes, but I'm not living and dying for sports any more.

 

Just living and dying then?

[radoran]

14 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Just living and dying then?

 

Taking what they're giving, 'cause I'm working for a living.