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Building just like Hexy/Lombo did?


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11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Oh trust me i am.

 

I learned the hard way back in the 90's.

 

When i was living in North Carolina my God bless her soul was wanting to do something special for me.

 

Yet and keep it a secret so Christmas, i foget which year it was but it was the year Bobby Hoying took over at QB sometime during the season.

 

And he looked pretty decent, well she did some research on her own and found out from where i don't know that to this day but found out he was the "QB of the future" so she went out and bought me his jersey.

 

And the jinx was on and he never amounted to anything and the rest is history.

 

I should have learned then before buying Richards jersey.

 

My first Jersey was a Hextall jersey.  Then the groun pulls began almost mmediately. Then the Lindros trade.  At least I could dig it out a few years later and at least he would always have been the vezina and conn Smythe winner who scored two goals.  but still, I always associated getting it with him going off the rails.  

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The difference between the Hextall approach and the Holmgren approach is sustainability.

 

Hextall's method takes longer because Holmgren left the cupboards bare. The Phantoms were in shambles, and the Flyers roster always  had to be filled from the outside.

 

Holmgren's method kinda worked - the team was always competitive, but every improvement required a trade or signing. 

 

And they definitely had some exciting teams. 

 

I like the new approach, though. When the time comes, Hextall will have to go outside to find the missing pieces, but at least the major core pieces will be from within - Patrick, Provorov, Hart, Sandstrom, Sanheim, Hagg, Konecny, Frost, Lindblom.

 

I'd say in 3-4 years, this team will be competitive for the long haul. They will probably make the playoffs before then, but real stability is still 3-4 years away.

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2 hours ago, brelic said:

at least the major core pieces will be from within - Patrick, Provorov, Hart, Sandstrom, Sanheim, Hagg, Konecny, Frost, Lindblom

 

except history suggests having half of those players turn into capable NHLers would be an above average success rate.  if the flyers end up with 2 standouts, 2 mid-roster players, 2 depth players, and 3 washouts from those 9 players, they'll be hitting way better than most.  and that's still not a complete "core".

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3 hours ago, brelic said:

I like the new approach, though. When the time comes, Hextall will have to go outside to find the missing pieces, but at least the major core pieces will be from within - Patrick, Provorov, Hart, Sandstrom, Sanheim, Hagg, Konecny, Frost, Lindblom.

 

Not to cherry pick of aziz but we have no way of telling how most of these will turn out.   I think we know what Prov is and he will be the backbone of this team for a long time.   Patrick, IMO, will be a very good player but will take time but I don't see him as a franchise type player.  Hagg is steady and TK is still figuring things out...   I think the chances that this bunch will provide but it is all projections right now. The are prospects for the most part -- how that translates to the NHL is still to be seen.   

 

Don't get me wrong - I am not complaining but the history of the league is littered with players with potential that never come close.   We can't determine these kids as "major pieces" right now outside of Provorov.  Is there potential?  Yeah...   but potential is no guarantee.

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@aziz @murraycraven

 

That's fair, and I agree. Not all of them will turn out.

 

Provorov, I think we can safely say, will  be this team's #1. He is already, and he's only 20. Between now and his mid-20s, it's fair to believe his game will improve.

 

Hagg already plays well, and I think we can say he is a top 4 defenseman. 

 

The rest are question marks at this point - Patrick, TK, Sanheim.

 

And the ones not here yet are even bigger question marks. Frost, Lindblom, Rubtsov, Hart, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Ratcliffe, Allison, Myers, Friedman, Morin, and the list goes on. The percentage of prospects who pan out will be somewhere between 0% and 100%.

 

But our prospects don't stop there. We have two  1st round picks this year, and if the Flyers continue drafting well, we should be able to find a few more standouts. 

 

The Kings drafted their core between 2003 and 2008 - Quick, Brown, Doughty, and Kopitar. So two more drafts for Hextall.

 

So if we have Provorov, Patrick, one of Hart/Sandstrom/Ustimenko, and one of Frost/TK/Lindblom/Ratcliffe/Rubtsov/Someone else pan out as core players, isn't that sufficient? And that doesn't include acquiring a core player from a position of strength.

 

Of course, there are no guarantees, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. 

 

I guess I'm not understanding the pessimism. Do you guys think they should be going in a different direction? From previous posts, I believe aziz does, but I could be mis-remembering.

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4 hours ago, brelic said:

@aziz @murraycraven

 

That's fair, and I agree. Not all of them will turn out.

 

Provorov, I think we can safely say, will  be this team's #1. He is already, and he's only 20. Between now and his mid-20s, it's fair to believe his game will improve.

 

Hagg already plays well, and I think we can say he is a top 4 defenseman. 

 

The rest are question marks at this point - Patrick, TK, Sanheim.

 

And the ones not here yet are even bigger question marks. Frost, Lindblom, Rubtsov, Hart, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Ratcliffe, Allison, Myers, Friedman, Morin, and the list goes on. The percentage of prospects who pan out will be somewhere between 0% and 100%.

 

But our prospects don't stop there. We have two  1st round picks this year, and if the Flyers continue drafting well, we should be able to find a few more standouts. 

 

The Kings drafted their core between 2003 and 2008 - Quick, Brown, Doughty, and Kopitar. So two more drafts for Hextall.

 

So if we have Provorov, Patrick, one of Hart/Sandstrom/Ustimenko, and one of Frost/TK/Lindblom/Ratcliffe/Rubtsov/Someone else pan out as core players, isn't that sufficient? And that doesn't include acquiring a core player from a position of strength.

 

Of course, there are no guarantees, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. 

 

I guess I'm not understanding the pessimism. Do you guys think they should be going in a different direction? From previous posts, I believe aziz does, but I could be mis-remembering.

 

Yes. Great. Post.

 

I think folks are just over thinking things right now. This is a new way of doing things. It isn't like it's for 3 years and it's over.

 

No it is the new way the club does business. You have to wisely use the draft and free agency together.

 

Right now to many people are worrying about where their child will go to college and all they have done as of yet is found out they are expecting a child in 9 months.

 

Slow down breathe........it's really new to all of us. None of Flyers fans have done it this way before.

 

#fingerscrossed

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yes. Great. Post.

 

I think folks are just over thinking things right now. This is a new way of doing things. It isn't like it's for 3 years and it's over.

 

No it is the new way the club does business. You have to wisely use the draft and free agency together.

 

Right now to many people are worrying about where their child will go to college and all they have done as of yet is found out they are expecting a child in 9 months.

 

Slow down breathe........it's really new to all of us. None of Flyers fans have done it this way before.

 

#fingerscrossed

 

Exactly. It’s not for a fixed period of time. In truth, it’s the Flyers finally understanding that in a cap world, in a fixed contract world, in a younger, more speed and talent based NHL, you gotta adapt. 

 

They’re about ten years late to the party. But at least they finally showed up!

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

None of Flyers fans have done it this way before.

 

Bobby Clarke, Dave Schultz, Bill Clement, Bob Kelly, Bill Barber and Jimmy Watson say hello. For that matter, Parent was an expansion draft pick as were Gary Dornhoeffer, Ed van Impe and Joe Watson. Not to mention good ol' free agent Orest Kindrachuk.

 

It's, actually, the only way they have won.

 

But then you also add in players like a MacLeish (who made his NHL debut with the team), Ross Lonsbury... And, of course, the return of Bernie Parent.

 

Different time? Yes and no. Obviously scouting is so much more prevalent and there are a lot more teams, salary cap, yadda yadda. There's also the idea that the central core of teams like Chicago, Los Angeles and Pittsburgh are heavily represented by home grown talent. Add in the Boston squad from 2011 and that's the last eight Cups. Followed by Detroit and Anaheim, who also fit the bill.

 

But it took six years from the expansion draft to the first Cup. This is year 3 of the Hextall Regime and, if accounts are to be believed, we're a good 2-3 years away from "really competing."

 

Right on target...?

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17 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Bobby Clarke, Dave Schultz, Bill Clement, Bob Kelly, Bill Barber and Jimmy Watson say hello. For that matter, Parent was an expansion draft pick as were Gary Dornhoeffer, Ed van Impe and Joe Watson. Not to mention good ol' free agent Orest Kindrachuk.

 

It's, actually, the only way they have won.

 

But then you also add in players like a MacLeish (who made his NHL debut with the team), Ross Lonsbury... And, of course, the return of Bernie Parent.

 

Different time? Yes and no. Obviously scouting is so much more prevalent and there are a lot more teams, salary cap, yadda yadda. There's also the idea that the central core of teams like Chicago, Los Angeles and Pittsburgh are heavily represented by home grown talent. Add in the Boston squad from 2011 and that's the last eight Cups. Followed by Detroit and Anaheim, who also fit the bill.

 

But it took six years from the expansion draft to the first Cup. This is year 3 of the Hextall Regime and, if accounts are to be believed, we're a good 2-3 years away from "really competing."

 

Right on target...?

 

There’s no guarantees of course. 

 

The difference with this approach is that the Flyers are much more directly in control of their own destiny rather than at the mercy of whatever other GMs are willing to part with, and whatever players make it to free agency. 

 

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7 hours ago, brelic said:

@aziz @murraycraven

 

That's fair, and I agree. Not all of them will turn out.

 

Provorov, I think we can safely say, will  be this team's #1. He is already, and he's only 20. Between now and his mid-20s, it's fair to believe his game will improve.

 

Hagg already plays well, and I think we can say he is a top 4 defenseman. 

 

The rest are question marks at this point - Patrick, TK, Sanheim.

 

And the ones not here yet are even bigger question marks. Frost, Lindblom, Rubtsov, Hart, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Ratcliffe, Allison, Myers, Friedman, Morin, and the list goes on. The percentage of prospects who pan out will be somewhere between 0% and 100%.

 

But our prospects don't stop there. We have two  1st round picks this year, and if the Flyers continue drafting well, we should be able to find a few more standouts. 

 

The Kings drafted their core between 2003 and 2008 - Quick, Brown, Doughty, and Kopitar. So two more drafts for Hextall.

 

So if we have Provorov, Patrick, one of Hart/Sandstrom/Ustimenko, and one of Frost/TK/Lindblom/Ratcliffe/Rubtsov/Someone else pan out as core players, isn't that sufficient? And that doesn't include acquiring a core player from a position of strength.

 

Of course, there are no guarantees, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. 

 

I guess I'm not understanding the pessimism. Do you guys think they should be going in a different direction? From previous posts, I believe aziz does, but I could be mis-remembering.

I know Konecny is struggling, but I think he has too much speed and play making ability to be labeled a serious question mark at this point... a little more proper coaching and I think he'll be fine.

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On 12/2/2017 at 12:11 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I get that everyone is very high on Carter Hart, but don't forget about Felix Sandstrom either. One of the things that I've mentioned about Hart that has me kind of nervous is that he plays on very strict defensive Everett club that has a swarming defense that will scoop up any rebound he gives up. As well, at last year's WJC tournament, Hart was lit up like a Christmas tree and he looked incredibly shaky when the game goes from a defensive battle to a wide open game. He didn't play angles well, he gave up bad rebounds and he was weak glove side on a few goals. So while Hart might be sporting a .951 save percentage and a 1.7 GAA in the WHL, I'm not going to annoint him the saviour of the franchise just yet. As well, there's also a kid name Kirill Ustimenko that is having a very good season the MHL in Russia. He is also another guy that could really push Hart when he gets over. 

 

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a goaltending pipeline like this in all my time as a Flyers fan. 

 

 

 Well he's not the savior of the franchise until he is...

 

 The Silvertips goals against to start the year...7-1-3-5-5-0-5-4-5-3-5-3-6-4-1-2 for a 3.68 GAA.

 

 Since Hart came back from mono 1-2-3-0-0-2-2-2-0-1-2-1-0-1-0-1-0       .960 Sv% and 1.34 GAA

 

 I think it's fairly apparent Hart isn't too bad in net. As for TC, he was clearly the better goaltender for us. He lost in the shootout in the gold medal game...cause he let in one goal to a shootout specialist and his team failed to score.

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3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

 Well he's not the savior of the franchise until he is...

 

 The Silvertips goals against to start the year...7-1-3-5-5-0-5-4-5-3-5-3-6-4-1-2 for a 3.68 GAA.

 

 Since Hart came back from mono 1-2-3-0-0-2-2-2-0-1-2-1-0-1-0-1-0       .960 Sv% and 1.34 GAA

 

 I think it's fairly apparent Hart isn't too bad in net. As for TC, he was clearly the better goaltender for us. He lost in the shootout in the gold medal game...cause he let in one goal to a shootout specialist and his team failed to score.

Sandstorm is now out for year I believe which stinks. 

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I'm convinced that with the prospect group we have, the Flyers have an exceedingly high number of players that should hit. The key word is should. My biggest concern is whether or not the coaches can help get them there (although I'll give credit where credit is due - Scott Gordon seems to be doing a very good job with some of the young guys in Lehigh Valley as Aube-Kubel really seems to be coming on now, Vorobyov is a very good two-way center and Vecchione should be a bottom six guy in Philadelphia next season). Next season, we'll get to see a real loaded Phantoms squad, especially when you consider that Rubstov, Hart, Laberge (I still have high hopes he rebounds next season), Allison, Laczynski, Twarynski, etc...all arrive in Lehigh Valley.

 

As for Carter Hart, I could care less about the shoot out last year. I watched the tournament and I saw a guy who was incredibly shaky against the Russians and gave up a bunch of bad goals. He also did the same during the pre-tourney practice. It might have been nerves, but there's nothing wrong with pumping the brakes a bit on Hart. I've seen some on here declare him the next great franchise goalie before even playing a pro game and I think some tempered expectations are needed. 

 

As for Sandstrom, that sucks that he's gone for the year. I know that he had a hand issue, but I see that it's an abdominal issue that will keep him out for the rest of the year. Must have suffered a tear of some sort and then the muscle worked it's way through the tear (I remember when pro wrestler Matt Hardy had that and his stomach turned a gross dark shade of blue). Anyways, good for Sandstrom to get it done now and then come to Philadelphia in the fall and be ready for camp. 

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7 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

.cause he let in one goal to a shootout specialist and his team failed to score

 

Sounds like he will fit right in then. Maybe by the time he arrives the Flyers will have found a way to score in the shootout by then!:beer:

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13 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

 

As for Carter Hart, I could care less about the shoot out last year. I watched the tournament and I saw a guy who was incredibly shaky against the Russians and gave up a bunch of bad goals. He also did the same during the pre-tourney practice. It might have been nerves, but there's nothing wrong with pumping the brakes a bit on Hart. I've seen some on here declare him the next great franchise goalie before even playing a pro game and I think some tempered expectations are needed. 

 

 

 

 The guy has a 1.32 GAA and a .961 save % now, after allowing 1 goal on 43 shots to the 2nd best team in the entire league . The next best goalie has a 2.15, and the 3rd best has a 3.00. .931 is the closest save percentage among full time goalies.

 

 I'm not anointing anyone our savior, like I said, until there actually is one. But having plenty of good goalie prospects gives us a much better chance of finding one than not having them...and Hart is pretty much the best one we have.  Sandstrom is right up there.

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I'm excited to what Hart can do but Juniors are still Juniors.

 

Of the past 20 WHL goalies of the year, four have become NHL starters (Jones, Price, Ward and Boucher) with two more being pretty good backups (Kuemper, Harding). 

 

Of the three guys that won it twice, only Ward has become an NHL goalie while Chet Packard is playing in Germany and never logged and NHL minute.

 

Hart is #3.

 

Prospects still gotta play their way in.

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6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 The guy has a 1.32 GAA and a .961 save % now, after allowing 1 goal on 43 shots to the 2nd best team in the entire league . The next best goalie has a 2.15, and the 3rd best has a 3.00. .931 is the closest save percentage among full time goalies.

 

 

Yeah 5 shutouts in his last 11 games is pretty damn impressive i don't care where you play. I must say i'm very excited for this kid's future.

 

Yet he will still get some AHL seasoning and i imagine he and Sandstrom will be competing for time in the crease for the Phantoms.

 

It will be a battle of the ages i say. And the loser of it will more than likely be flipped for a nice return for maybe even a different piece to plug in. It's a win win in my book.

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On 12/3/2017 at 8:00 AM, flyercanuck said:

 I'll offer up the jury the Bobrovsky trade/Bryz signing, the LeCavalier signing, the McDud signing, his Syvret for a 1st trade, his Versteeg for a 1st trade his throwing away of 2nd round picks and they'll tar and feather you, hang you, then throw you in front of a firing squad....then urinate on your corpse whist pillaging your bank account. (hey, YOU brought the lawyers in...sorry vis )

 

 

 Not even counting trading away the 1st round pick (that turned out to be John Carlson) for Steve Emminger. 

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