Dec. 12/17 @ Philly

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, hobie said:

 

How do you come by that conclusion?

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-best-farm-systems-2017-ranking/

 

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/20340430/nhl-ranking-prospect-pipelines-all-31-teams-heading-2017-18-season

 

http://www.dobberprospects.com/2017-organizational-prospects-rankings/

 

Is that enough?

 

Or you need more proof?

[hobie]

These rating bodies are interesting, at the beginning of last year TO's prospect pipeline was ranked as low as 3rd, that pipeline included Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Hymen, Zaitsev, Brown and more which were the players that were hugely responsible for TO making the playoffs for the 1st time in like forever.

 

Philly's prospect pipeline is propped up by Patrick, Saneim, Hagg, Leier being listed as prospects. I think at least 3 of those players are now Flyers, no longer prospects so how does the Flyer pipeline rate without those names. This is a good thing, prospects often don't translate so they're simply names until they actually make the NHL.

 

Just for giggles http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/ranking-nhl-team-prospect-pipeline/story?id=41724093

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, hobie said:

 

How do you come by that conclusion?

Several different ranking periodicals that do it annually put the flyers #1. 

 

However ( @OccamsRazor), these were all released over the summer. I wonder with Hagg, Sanheim, Patrick and Leier moving up whether that technically remains true.

 

With what all is still in the pipeline they'd still be ranked no less than 3rd this summer barring a sudden Holmgrenesque shopping spree between now and then. 

 

And don't take that away. It's really all we got. 

[ruxpin]

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-best-farm-systems-2017-ranking/

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/20340430/nhl-ranking-prospect-pipelines-all-31-teams-heading-2017-18-season

 

http://www.dobberprospects.com/2017-organizational-prospects-rankings

 

On my phone, so just a few.  But articles aside, it's just an extremely deep and very good talent pool. As always, what remains to be seen is how any of it translates to the NHL. 

 

EDIT:  Didn't realize this was convered already. And funny you asked the same question I did regarding Patrick, Sanheim, et al.  The answer is that they're still top 3.  Your Canada national juniors goalie (Hart) is a Flyer. Swedish WJC goalie Felix Sandstrom. 

Philip Myers, Danick Martel, Morin, Frost,... A host more but I'm struggling on my phone.  But again, as both of us have said, how it translates to the NHL is a whole different ball game. The Flyers, for example, have a lot of skill coming, but a developing theme seems to be trouble keeping people healthy. We shall see. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, hobie said:

These rating bodies are interesting, at the beginning of last year TO's prospect pipeline was ranked as low as 3rd, that pipeline included Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Hymen, Zaitsev, Brown and more which were the players that were hugely responsible for TO making the playoffs for the 1st time in like forever.

 

Philly's prospect pipeline is propped up by Patrick, Saneim, Hagg, Leier being listed as prospects. I think at least 3 of those players are now Flyers, no longer prospects so how does the Flyer pipeline rate without those names. This is a good thing, prospects often don't translate so they're simply names until they actually make the NHL.

 

Just for giggles http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/ranking-nhl-team-prospect-pipeline/story?id=41724093

 

They are still prospects.

 

They are still on their entry level deals.

 

That is a prospect. And they can be sent down at anytime too without waivers.

 

Dispute it all you want fine by me.

 

Just because they were released before some of the kids made the team makes it no less credible.

 

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They are still prospects.

 

They are still on their entry level deals.

 

That is a prospect. And they can be sent down at anytime too without waivers.

 

Dispute it all you want fine by me.

 

Just because they were released before some of the kids made the team makes it no less credible.

 

I like hobie. He's asking decent questions. 

But he also started the thread out with the premise that a team on a 2-3 year out rebuild and 5 starting rookies is "a team built to win now." So... 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I like hobie. He's asking decent questions. 

But he also started the thread out with the premise that a team on a 2-3 year out rebuild and 5 starting rookies is "a team built to win now." So... 

 

That is fine.

 

He asked i provided the sources.

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue/dispute what is and what isn't considered a prospect.

 

Think feel how ever he may about it.

 

But no matter what they are NOT a "built to win now team"...unless he meant they won now against the Leafs.

 

Anyways later.

[hf101]

5 hours ago, hobie said:

Just for giggles http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/ranking-nhl-team-prospect-pipeline/story?id=41724093

 

Just for giggles... that article is almost a year and a half old.  By the authors definition:

"Defining a prospect is important when assessing a pool since many players live on the boundaries of being a prospect or not. For purposes of this ranking, a player is graduated if they have played 25 games or more in any NHL season, or 50 total in their career. "

 

 

By that definition Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Reilly for the Leafs  and Flyers Provorov, Konecny,  Provorov, Sanheim, Leier, and Hagg are not prospects, and only Nolan Patrick for the Flyers is still considered a prospect at 21 NHL games played.

[ruxpin]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is fine.

 

He asked i provided the sources.

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue/dispute what is and what isn't considered a prospect.

 

Think feel how ever he may about it.

 

But no matter what they are NOT a "built to win now team"...unless he meant they won now against the Leafs.

 

Anyways later.

I wasn't disagreeing. We posted the same articles. Lol

 

At first just my own honest hesitation was 1)do the players who came up still count and 2) if so, how much does that change anything this coming summer when they rank again. 

 

I don't think it's a highly important thing to worry about. Hell, as flyers fans we likely have a ping pong ball to chase. Just wondering if you take those players out of the equation how it possibly affects those rankings. 

[ruxpin]

46 minutes ago, hf101 said:

"Defining a prospect is important when assessing a pool since many players live on the boundaries of being a prospect or not. For purposes of this ranking, a player is graduated if they have played 25 games or more in any NHL season, or 50 total in their career. "

Well, that answers that part. Thanks! 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, hf101 said:

 

Just for giggles... that article is almost a year and a half old.  By the authors definition:

"Defining a prospect is important when assessing a pool since many players live on the boundaries of being a prospect or not. For purposes of this ranking, a player is graduated if they have played 25 games or more in any NHL season, or 50 total in their career. "

 

 

By that definition Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Reilly for the Leafs  and Flyers Provorov, Konecny,  Provorov, Sanheim, Leier, and Hagg are not prospects, and only Nolan Patrick for the Flyers is still considered a prospect at 21 NHL games played.

 

Well most of the ones i was looking at was during the offseason before this season started.

 

I doubt anyone is doing an updated version 30 games into the season.

 

So with the exception of Ivan and Leier i would consider the rest still prospects.

 

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well most of the ones i was looking at was during the offseason before this season started.

 

I doubt anyone is doing an updated version 30 games into the season.

 

So with the exception of Ivan and Leier i would consider the rest still prospects.

 

 

Considering any one of them (except those you mentioned) could be sent down at any moment, I don't disagree. 

[hobie]

9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is fine.

 

He asked i provided the sources.

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue/dispute what is and what isn't considered a prospect.

 

Think feel how ever he may about it.

 

But no matter what they are NOT a "built to win now team"...unless he meant they won now against the Leafs.

 

Anyways later.

 

I didn't say I thought TO was a team that's built to win now but it is felt that TO's signings this past summer were the moves of a team that wants to win now.

Quote

"I think they’re all in this year. I don’t think there is any doubt about that.

I think they’re all in. I think they’re all in the next two years. I think if there are big pieces out there that they think they can get their hands on, they’re going to try for them. " says Elliotte Friedman

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/12/13/leafs-links-friedman-leafs-theyre-next-two-years-big-pieces-think-can-get-hands-theyre-going-try/

 

TO is probably not at an ideal winning roster makeup right now however was Chicago when it won it's 1st Cup with Toews and Kane in their 3rd years and the Hawks having only made the playoffs the year before after a long playoff drought?

 

If you look at prospects and assume a team has a ton of them then you'd expect  their minor league team would have an incredibly successful record that's founded on the strength of the prospects like TO's Marlies who are the best team in the A with a .8 winning percentage.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, hobie said:

If you look at prospects and assume a team has a ton of them then you'd expect  their minor league team would have an incredibly successful record that's founded on the strength of the prospects like TO's Marlies who are the best team in the A with a .8 winning percentage.

 

Yes, except that many of our prospects are not in the A.   Many are in Europe or juniors (most).   There a handful in Lehigh (AHL affiliate), but not the majority.  And some are hurt -- which is a concerning problem.  Phillipe Myers, for example, had a terrific WJC and then got hurt in them.  Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he is hurt again.   Morin is a progressing really well.  6'7" defenseman.  I don't think he's Chara, but that type.  And nasty.   But he is becoming what can be arguably called "injury-prone."   

 

So, we're back to "skill, but does that translate and can they stay healthy."   The translate part is probably true for any organization's top level talent until they show that it does by being there.   The "stay healthy" concern is a little more prevalent here.  I don't know if it's simply we're snake-bitten or there's a part of the scouting that's missing.   Most of these "stay healthy" issues developed after people were drafted (except, clearly, for Nolan Patrick), so maybe just a snake-bitten thing.

 

The other issue is our need to keep bringing people up due to our own injuries, but I think any organization --Toronto too--has that particular issue.

[ruxpin]

I really with hockeysfuture.com hadn't fallen off the face of the planet.  That used to be a pretty cool resource.   It's still there but hasn't been updated since the year McDavid was drafted.   I think McDavid broke the site.

[hobie]

Brocco, a prospect that many Leaf fans have pointed to as a for sure future Leaf, did very well in the OHL(star probable), this year in the A 13 gp, 1 g, 5a, as a 20 year he's been benched many times.

Adam Brooks who has come in the top 2 of the WHL scoring race the last 2 years, this year 19 gp, 0 g, 2 a, as a 21 year old benched occasionally as well. 

 

Leaf fans oohed and ahhed about them last year, not so much this year.

 

An odd factoid, Tampa had Kucherov, Johnson, Palat, Killorn and others languishing in the A and their prospect pipeline was ranked 25th at that time.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, hobie said:

I didn't say I thought TO was a team that's built to win now

 

 

I know you said Philly was. Re read your 1st post. I was disagreeing with that.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, hobie said:

If you look at prospects and assume a team has a ton of them then you'd expect  their minor league team would have an incredibly successful record that's founded on the strength of the prospects like TO's Marlies who are the best team in the A with a .8 winning percentage.

 

 

And they were one of the tops till a rash of injures hit. They have 4 ECHL Dmen on their roster.

 

Mcdud was hurt for a month and Gudas suspended so guys they needed in LV was needed in Philly.

 

Not to count numerous injuries to the forwards their Captain Macdonald, Connor and Brennan out. And then the AHL leading goal scorer was called up for a week in Martel. To it is part of the game.

 

Stolarz has been hurt since before camp started and is still out he was suppose to be the number 1.

 

It is why they had to swing a trade for Tokarski to backup Lyon who was called up because Neuvy is hurt still so their Phantom backup goalie is a backup in the NHL. And they just started their goalie from the ECHL club last night. 

 

All those crazy injuries (which are still going on) and they are still 16-9-1. Marlies are only 20-5-0.

 

So their great depth is what kept them afloat.