Lobotomy on offence

[Stuart]

The commentator on the telecast of last night’s Minnesota game (I think his name is Elliott Friedman?) described the change in our beloved Leaf’s recent performances as if “they had an offensive lobotomy”, he further lamented how they couldn’t sustain any pressure beyond “shoot it in”, and was quite blunt in his assessment.

 

What on earth has happened to our “loaded offensive” team? How many more games where we haven’t scored and are playing in our own zone mostly? Sure, missing Matthews doesn’t help, but his return won’t solve everything, and he could be out a fair bit longer. It’s so sad to see marvellous talents like Marner and Nylander struggle, their lack of confidence is obvious. Are we overrated, is their a lack of talent? Do we need more size? A proven scorer with a heavy shot playing next to Marner to take advantage of his soft feathery passes?

 

Seeing Komarov on the power play? Nylander only getting 8 minutes one recent game? Did Babcock overreact when he wanted to decrease neutral zone turnovers? Have our Leafs become a “clog our zone, let them shoot from the outside, wait for a break” team? Why wouldn’t a supposed talented offensive squad with the caliber of goalie in Anderson behind them, not open it up? This is getting painful to watch. 

 

P.s. I sure love Josh Leivo’s game though, I would find it a challenge to see him scratched a lot going ahead. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I honestly don't see very much in the way of defensive structure going on with the Leafs.

 

Dave Babcock is the kind of coach that I am pretty sure would prefer to have some sort of defensive identity on the ice (and he likely IS trying to instill that with this team), but so far, the results have been tepid at best.

 

I've watched some Leaf games over the last couple seasons since Babcock has taken over and I just cannot identify what kind of defense or defensive style this team is supposed to be playing.

Some individual plays by defensemen are pretty good, and yea, keeping the puck on the other end (I mentioned in the past the Leafs 'scoring away the rest of their problems') helps and is a form of defense in itself, but overall, as a unit, the team just doesn't have, or hasn't fully learned a sound, rock solid defensive system.

 

Now...you may be asking....why am I talking about defensive systems when the thread title is about offense.

Simple.

Offenses go into slumps. No matter how talented....from the Bolts, to the Penguins, to the Stars, to the Leafs.

All very good offensive clubs, who have bouts of guys just not scoring...sometimes all at the same time.

 

But if a team has a solid defensive structure, it makes it easier to 'tread water' and keep things under control just long enough till the stars get their mojo back.

And of course, with a good defensive structure, it means that even if your star players aren't getting it done at the time, it may afford some secondary and third string scorers to step in and do just enough to help the team on the scoreboard.

 

If a team like Toronto, which seemingly is far from solid defensively as a unit doesn't score with their top guys, then all that is left is a team that is haphazard in their own end and struggling mightily through all four lines as we are seeing with them now.

 

Thank goodness for Frederik Andersen, as he has kept his team in more games than probably the Leafs have had any business being in given their current scoring woes.

 

Last night's game against he Wild saw Minnesota's goalie scrambling around, with the Wild having some scoring difficulty of their own.

Had the Leafs forwards been firing on all cylinders, maybe THEY win the game 4-2 or 5-2.... the difference was, Minnesota has started to play a better brand of defense overall like they have always been known for.

It wasn't pretty last night for the Wild, and like I said, Toronto had them dead to rights on certain plays, but the defense held just enough, the goalie scrambled just enough, and the scorers got just enough to beat the Leafs who are missing the one thing they are best at.... scoring goals.

 

I can't help but think that if the Leafs had a sounder defensive strategy (and the execution to go with it), maybe they get garbage, dirty or otherwise unremarkable goals from guys who DON'T normally score...because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how they get the goals...simply that they DO get them.

[hobie]

I've always thought that offense or at least possession is the better form of d. The results(goals) might dry up in stretches but it's hard for an opponent to score from their zone.

 

Considering the number of scoring chances the Wild had last night whatever d game plan TO has cooked up is working, structured or not. But like any team it will break down and right now Babs and co. seem to feel the d plan is superior to earlier in the year so he's reasonably pleased, so say he.

 

The transition from all out offense to a more responsible game is appearing difficult for the Leafs. The offense is paying or being relegated to defensive responsibilities.

 

I think the ultimate goal is to make TO a more balanced team which should be possible if TO has the right blend of players.

 

I'd prefer TO rely more on their strength, offense, and become just good enough on d to win. What we watched last night was drying paint boring, hockey should be entertaining. 

[Stuart]

And it got worse last night, even more “dry paint boring” with an inept performance against Detroit.

Worse, Nylander and Marner are becoming phantom figures.

 

its down to (1)-trust that “Grandpa Babcock” steers his children down the right path eventually, he certainly has the pedigree, our “holy grail” being that our youth can only get better, thus we can be patient and not overreact (2)- question if we have the right personnel (3)- wonder if the dynamic creative goal scoring team we initially saw this year is not a mirage and the real issue is that the rest of the league has adjusted, that there is now an “accepted book” on how to beat them (I see so many similarities now in how our opponents play us, I think).

 

liked both your comments, lots of truth there.

[hobie]

Nylander and Marner aren't far off of their offensive stats from last year, which I find surprising, but optically they seem different, less dynamic. I attribute the difference to this being their sophomore years, their scoring stats from last year were elite for rookies and exceptional for NHL players in general.

 

I remember Nylander having a point per game streak of around 15 games in the second half of last year. I also remember Matthews having a dry streak around this time last year and the Leafs in general struggling to score, again, at this time last year.

 

Babs seemed to only lightly coach last year and didn't over react except with Nylander for a brief time. I truly believe the Leafs are all in this year so Babs is being more insistent that a reasonable facsimile of his game plan needs to be observed. For now he's content to see the effort to achieve his defensive gameplan, in spite of results, but I'm sure his patience is waning.

 

I remember Babs' Wings, their game was all about pressuring the puck and possession and I expect the Leafs can be a similar type of team. Right now the transition is hard for the players and us but the end game could end up being spectacular. 

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

Well, outside of a rare offensive explosion game here or there, it seems like the trend continues. 

 

The Leafs have fizzled offensively. 14 goals in their last 6 games = 2.333 GPG.  2-4 record during that span.

 

Two of those games were shootouts, so erasing the bogus "goals" we get: 12 non-shootout goals in their last 6 games = 2.0 GPG.

 

 

[hobie]

TO loses 3-2 in OT after having a 2-0 lead going into the 3rd period. That was a normal result last year but TO actually outplayed Clb in the 3rd by a significant margin rather than defending only. I liked it, so did Babs so maybe Babs is going to loosen the reins and let us be entertained again.

 

As I mentioned earlier TO went thru this same goal scoring drought last year around this time of year so it's nothing to get alarmed about just yet, IMO.

[hobie]

On the other hand, I wonder is Babs trying to make a more defensively responsible team ASAP even tho it's speed and offensive aptitude is being stymied. This wouldn't be unprecedented by him as we saw him apply the reins on Rielly the previous 2 years to improve his d game. Has his reining in of Rielly resulted in a better d-man or has a freer Rielly, a player free to use all of his gifts which should enable him to improve really been the reason for his apparent improvement?

 

Is Babs able to adapt and work with what he has, a possibility, or is Babs a coach that can only tolerate a team, players that play his way what we have.

 

In the games I watch see Matthews on the 2nd PP, I see games where Hymen, Komarov play more than Matthews. I saw a game where Komarov played the 1st shift in overtime not Matthews, I saw a game where TO had a PP in overtime and Matthews didn't get on till the last 30 seconds of it. I never see Matthews, Nylander or Marner kill penalties, why? I rarely, very rarely, ever see Babs experiment with lines even tho in some games the lines he uses are obviously impotent. 

 

I think TO can be better but I'm not sure Babs can be. TO is going to progress because of the youth but progression without proper guidance will have limitations like the results we have seen lately. 

[BluPuk]

Well, all I can say is that IMHO, the Leafs STILL have blue and white disease. After all the years of having no talent, they are now underachievers. They have enough talent to be much better than they are, but they have NO team spirit. They don't play for each other, they play for themselves. I don't claim to know what the cause is, but there it is - the press in TO, the intense focus on hockey in the Toronto area but there is . I can't watch them any more - it's just too infuriating. 

[yave1964]

From what I have seen of the Leafs this year they are playing very disciplined and seem a shoe-in to be in the conversation for Eastern Conference favorites right behind the Bolts in a crowded field. A few problems that I have seen:

 

Kadri and Komarov haven't really played their gritty game as they have in seasons past, it pops up on occasion but not nightly. Matt Martin seems to have slowed as well, essentially their grit and sandpaper guys aren't bringing it nightly. That is a concern.

 

  Obviously the kids are down a bit this year, I think they are playing soft and need to get a bit bloody, not be afraid to move on the net and take a hit. Skill and finesse are not the issue, desire to score at all cost seems to be.

 

  The defense is greatly improved bust still lacks the true puck mover to join the rush, Gardiner is down this year, Reilly picked up his game in that regard for awhile but is best suited for the second pair and second power play. A true puck moving defenseman who forces other teams to play on their heels would fix most of what is wrong with the Leafs.

 

  All that said I believe they are a hell of a team and I picked them to go to the Stanley Cup Finals and nothing I have seen has changed my mind.

 

  

 

[hobie]

I watched the St.L. game tonite, TO had a 1 goal lead with about 1 and 1/2 minutes left so St.L. took out their goalie. The first line  Babs used to combat this was Matthews, Hymen and Brown, he left Nylander on the bench. TO couldn't get out of their zone, then he brought out the Kadri line same results as both lines basically panicked when they had the puck. TO is having trouble closing out games sort of like last year and Babs is doing the same things, trying to close out the games with TO's least talented players, his most trusted players. 

 

I understand that Babs trusts those guys but I question if this trust is justifiable. Marner and Nylander are talented players that Babs should be growing rather than consigning them to the bench. TO needed to attempt to gain puck control but that's not possible with who he had on the ice. Marner and Nylander need to learn and that can only be accomplished by giving them the responsibility, they plus Matthews will be the keys to TO's future, offensively and defensively.

 

Yave, I disagree with you, I think Rielly is a puck moving d-man, a capable #1 just not an all-star. He will be even better with a better partner. Dermot might be that future partner or Borgman or Lilegren so hopefully it's just a matter of time. Right now Rielly is attempting to rid himself of the cobwebs Babs had implanted in his head, Babs basically told him to defend the last 2 years while stifling his mobility but the leash seems to be off this year.

[WordsOfWisdom]

On 1/15/2018 at 8:50 AM, yave1964 said:

A true puck moving defenseman who forces other teams to play on their heels would fix most of what is wrong with the Leafs.

 

Isn't that Rielly and Gardiner in a nutshell?  That's what they do. 

[WordsOfWisdom]

23 hours ago, hobie said:

I watched the St.L. game tonite, TO had a 1 goal lead with about 1 and 1/2 minutes left so St.L. took out their goalie. The first line  Babs used to combat this was Matthews, Hymen and Brown, he left Nylander on the bench. TO couldn't get out of their zone, then he brought out the Kadri line same results as both lines basically panicked when they had the puck. TO is having trouble closing out games sort of like last year and Babs is doing the same things, trying to close out the games with TO's least talented players, his most trusted players. 

 

I've been MIA lately. I can only watch the Saturday night games on CBC (when they're on).  

 

I don't understand why Babs doesn't have Nylander or Marner playing with Matthews.  That would make for a killer top line. 

[yave1964]

@hobie

 

I LOVE Reilly, feel that he is a very capable puck mover, as for Gardiner, meh, not so much, I feel he is punching outside of his weight class be necessity and a real aggressive offensive minded defenseman would allow him to slot into a role better suited to his skills. Agreed, I have watched Babs hold Reilly back for several years now and think that more is possible of the kid. 

 

 @WordsOfWisdom same thing as above. Adding a Mike Green at or before the deadline, a potential UFA right handed shot power play guy would allow your boys versatility for the postseason. I do love the kids in the system many of whom are getting their feet wet this year, but for this year I picked the Leafs to go to the SCF and I feel that if the cost is not too prohibitive that a puck moving power play specialist would complete your team. Looking more and more as if Boston is the first round matchup you are staring down and they are very beatable in a7 game series but after that Tampa looms.

  BTW good to see my Wings tied for your second favorite team, lol. 

[hobie]

10 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I've been MIA lately. I can only watch the Saturday night games on CBC (when they're on).  

 

I don't understand why Babs doesn't have Nylander or Marner playing with Matthews.  That would make for a killer top line. 

 

Nylander plays on Matthews' line with Hymen, you really have been missing the games, eh.

 

3 hours ago, yave1964 said:

@hobie

 

I LOVE Reilly, feel that he is a very capable puck mover, as for Gardiner, meh, not so much, I feel he is punching outside of his weight class be necessity and a real aggressive offensive minded defenseman would allow him to slot into a role better suited to his skills. Agreed, I have watched Babs hold Reilly back for several years now and think that more is possible of the kid. 

 

 @WordsOfWisdom same thing as above. Adding a Mike Green at or before the deadline, a potential UFA right handed shot power play guy would allow your boys versatility for the postseason. I do love the kids in the system many of whom are getting their feet wet this year, but for this year I picked the Leafs to go to the SCF and I feel that if the cost is not too prohibitive that a puck moving power play specialist would complete your team. Looking more and more as if Boston is the first round matchup you are staring down and they are very beatable in a7 game series but after that Tampa looms.

  BTW good to see my Wings tied for your second favorite team, lol. 

 

I watch the 2 hockey shows, Leaf Lunch and Hockey Central at Noon, and Green has been discussed quite a bit, neither show's participants think that Green would be in any way an upgrade on what TO has now. TO has one of the best PPs in the NHL now so it wouldn't seem necessary to upgrade the 2 d-men who play there unless the upgrade is massive.

 

I think Babs is dicking around with Gardiner now giving him the Rielly treatment, in a non-Babsian world TO would have 3 to 5 puck moving d-men, Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Borgman and Dermott looks to have mobility and a good IQ, even Carrick has mobility. Babs doesn't seem to value puck moving d-men so much as fast puck moving d-men. If Green were on TO Babs would probably feel he'd need to Rielly him.  

[WordsOfWisdom]

21 hours ago, hobie said:

Nylander plays on Matthews' line with Hymen, you really have been missing the games, eh.

 

Recently yeah.  

 

 

[hobie]

Quote

Kristen Shilton

 

✔@kristen_shilton

 

Babcock said he's only separating Komarov and Kadri on the road; they'll be back together at home: "I’m looking to have more balance and more attack, especially on the road when I don’t have last change."

 

Didn't TO lose at home last night so why just on the road, all teams even teams without a speed reputation look fast against TO.

Speed kills both on the road and at home.

 

It appears Babs is finally watching the games, hopefully good for him and us.

 

Quote

Dave McCarthy@DaveAMcCarthy

 

#Tmltalk lineup at practice

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander

Marleau - Kadri - MARNER

JVR - Bozak - Brown

KOMAROV - MOORE - KAPANEN

MARTIN, Leivo
---
Gardiner - Hainsey

Dermott - Carrick

Borgman - Polak

Valiev
---
Andersen
McElhinney
---           #NHL

9:05 AM - Jan 23, 2018 · Toronto, Ontario

 

It's amazing Babs is beginning to recognize that top 6 forwards should maybe be in the top 2 lines now if only Babs would recognize that Hymen isn't a top 6 forward. Hymen has been more effective lately so we'll see.

 

Quote

We’re trying to get quicker with a lot more depth, obviously. That’s what you’re trying to do. Any time you’re not winning as much as you’d like to win… Like I said, last night I think we played well. We did lots of good things. But as I looked through the tape, we weren’t dangerous enough in the offensive zone. We had the puck all the time, but we weren’t dangerous enough. We just look at what we can do. We’ve been talking about it for a long time, so it’s not like it’s a spur of a moment thing. 

It’s just for the road. He’ll be right back at home. Leo played great last night. That line was really good for us. I like Leo there because he gives Naz a tightening about 10 times a game just to keep him in line. We’ll see how it goes in Chicago, but at home, they’re going to play together anyway. But I’m looking to have more balance and attack, especially on the road, where I don’t have last change. We’ve got to try something new. We’ve changed our lines a ton because of injuries when Matty was hurt, but we haven’t changed them since Matty came back that often.

– Mike Babcock after practice on Tuesday

 

I don't feel he's gone far enough but Rome wasn't built in 1 season, our PP started hot but it hasn't been for quite some time, Bozak is weak, Kadri can't find the net, Leo shouldn't ever be there, the players to build a far better PP are there so why not play them together.

 

Forget balance, tired of balance, give us lines that can score, that give us optimism we can win instead of 3 equally impotent lines. Matthews scored last nite(actually twice) but he didn't have as many opportunities as he should to maximize his talent, that's because of his linemates and TOI. Hymen had a good game last night and for what/who he is that's true but would his night be so easily acknowledged as great if he was Marner or Nylander.  

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, hobie said:

I don't feel he's gone far enough but Rome wasn't built in 1 season, our PP started hot but it hasn't been for quite some time, Bozak is weak, Kadri can't find the net, Leo shouldn't ever be there, the players to build a far better PP are there so why not play them together.

 

Forget balance, tired of balance, give us lines that can score, that give us optimism we can win instead of 3 equally impotent lines. Matthews scored last nite(actually twice) but he didn't have as many opportunities as he should to maximize his talent, that's because of his linemates and TOI. Hymen had a good game last night and for what/who he is that's true but would his night be so easily acknowledged as great if he was Marner or Nylander.  

 

I was reading a stat that Toronto draws fewer penalties than any other team in the NHL.  ie: They never get to the power play.  What's up with that?  Are the officials working against the Leafs again now that we're a playoff threat? 

 

As to your point above, I agree. I think Babcock was doing exactly that: trying to spread the scoring to all four lines. However, in doing so, you have four lines that are "meh" and nobody does well. We're at the point in the season where Toronto should know what their lines are.

 

The time for experimentation is over. We know who our top scorers are and they should be getting top minutes from here on in. 

 

[hobie]

Meh forward lines don't inspire the opposition to hook, trip or whatever.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about in regard to experimentation because other than when Nylander and Marner aren't playing up to Babs' standards and TO is healthy, Babs kept the lines together pretty well every game. It's only now that Babs is showing any willingness to experiment with the lines and only because of the d injuries that Babs is giving Dermott a look see.  

 

I think it is time to experiment, to look for actual productive lines rather than until now Babs' ideal line-up dispersal. For instance does Hymen and Matthews need to be joined at the hip? 

[WordsOfWisdom]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:48 PM, hobie said:

Meh forward lines don't inspire the opposition to hook, trip or whatever.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about in regard to experimentation because other than when Nylander and Marner aren't playing up to Babs' standards and TO is healthy, Babs kept the lines together pretty well every game. It's only now that Babs is showing any willingness to experiment with the lines and only because of the d injuries that Babs is giving Dermott a look see.  

 

I think it is time to experiment, to look for actual productive lines rather than until now Babs' ideal line-up dispersal. For instance does Hymen and Matthews need to be joined at the hip? 

 

I sort of phrased that wrong. I mean that by spreading the scoring among all four lines, it's as though Babcock is experimenting with players to see who wants to be the "top line". Almost as though every game is a tryout and each player is getting equal ice time to show what they can do. 

 

I think it's time to start treating the top lines and the top players as if they are exactly that and give them the bulk of the minutes.

 

Maybe things have been moving more in that direction lately. I haven't looked at the ice time stats in a few weeks.