Is there a franchise type guy worth trading up for in draft.?

[RonJeremy]

We should probably have a pick in the top 15 or hopefully top 10 , plus the Blues pick and if we move Simmonds for a pick and some prospects, we could have 3 first rounders. Is there a standout “goal scorer” with some size available or is there any high end guy worth trading  up for ?

We are in desperate need of a finisher , all our offensive players are pass first guys. I know we have drafted some big wingers , but they are a couple of years away .I’m wondering if there is a guy that can possibly step in and produce immediately. We need some scoring and if Simmonds is moved due to cap reasons , we will lose our best finisher. Our flashy guys are on the small side and Giroux, Weal ,Konecny, Martel, etc. Lindblom is improving, but still a question mark as to how much of a scorer he will be. I believe Weal will be in the minors or traded next season and you will see Vecchione ,Lindblom or Martel  replace him. So is there a sniper with some size we can target for the upcoming draft?

[elmatus]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by franchise player. If you're looking for a Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby, Tavares, McDavid, Matthews kind of guy, we would likely need to get a top three pick -- and more realistically first overall -- to get that level of game breaking talent. I can't imagine anyone trading away that high of a pick. If Simmer is moved, it will likely be to a contender, and contenders don't get top three picks.

 

As far as there being any such player available in 2018, it doesn't appear so anyway. The top ranked prospect right now is a defenseman, and he's been no.1 for quite some time. Barring some sort of huge collapse between now and June, he'll likely go first. Which isn't great for us anyway, as dmen are the least of our worries right now, and they tend to not ever be the finisher type you're talking about. 

 

Not that I wouldn't want him! I just don't think he fits the mould you're talking about. It's a moot point regardless, as we're not going to get a first overall pick this year -- unless we earn it the bad way. :/

 

If you're fine with extending your definition of franchise to include someone like Giroux, then it's entirely possible we could land one with whatever 1st round picks we get in the end. I would argue Giroux is a franchise player. He's just not of the generational talent caliber. Very very very few are in the end. To get one of those, you generally have to either have a legit terrible team, or you have to tank purposely (*cough*Toronto*cough*), and you have to do so in a year where it just so happens there is a generational talent available the following draft.

 

Players of that level are well known well before draft day. We all knew who Connor McDavid was well before he was drafted. This year's top gun right now is Rasmus Dahlin. I'm sure he'll be very good, but I doubt he'll be the second coming of Orr. 

[flyercanuck]

Svechnikov will likely go 2nd...he's a pretty good scorer. I get to watch him play here...he's got good size, skill and can skate. But it'd likely cost more than I'd want to give up to acquire that pick...I'd rather stick with where we pick and take our chances.

 

We've got Lindblom/Ratcliff/Frost/Rubtsov etc already in the pipeline...to go with Patrick and whatever we get with our 2-1sts this year. We may not have the leagues top scorer, but should be able get goals with these guys.

[pilldoc]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Svechnikov will likely go 2nd...he's a pretty good scorer.

 

Beat mem to it....the only name that i can think off.  Except for  abroken wrist/hand earlier in the year, the kidn has prioven he can flat out score.......  But yeah ...he is gone at #2.  

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Honestly, I wouldn't move up in the draft to grab someone. Oliver Whalstrom, Joel Farabee, Ryan McLeod, Jack McBain, Serron Noel are singe of the guys who well be available with the Flyers two picks and all of those guys are quality guys. The cost of moving up to get a Svechnikov works be astronomical. Keep the status quo and continue to build with quantity and quality.

[brelic]

4 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Honestly, I wouldn't move up in the draft to grab someone. Oliver Whalstrom, Joel Farabee, Ryan McLeod, Jack McBain, Serron Noel are singe of the guys who well be available with the Flyers two picks and all of those guys are quality guys. The cost of moving up to get a Svechnikov works be astronomical. Keep the status quo and continue to build with quantity and quality.

 

Just spitballing, but would three 1st rounders get you 1st overall? The two we have, plus getting a third one in a Simmonds trade. 

 

I mean, I know we kid about getting two #2 that are not on the same level as, say, Malkin, Laine, or Eichel (though it’s still too soon to say). Patrick will be solid but I don’t think he’ll be elite. Even in the JVR draft, there are only Voracek, Couture, Pacioretty, and maybe Perron and Turris that could be ahead of him in a redraft. Shattenkirk too if you wanted a defenseman. 

 

So would trading three 1st rounders be too much or too little for a guy like Svechnikov?

[pilldoc]

45 minutes ago, brelic said:

So would trading three 1st rounders be too much or too little for a guy like Svechnikov?

 

Before answering that...here are a few questions...  First and fore most the question has to be asked ......

 

1) Would you consider Svechnikov a generational type player? 

 

if yes ....then we have to ask ourselves what is he worth?  2 firsts and a player like Simmonds (though I would hate to see him go).  Do you trade the 2 firsts and a high defensive prospect?  Or do we go the route of trading Simmonds to someone else ..which leads into question #2.....

 

2) Would we be guaranteed getting a 1st for Simmonds?  If so, then it goes back to question #1...what is it worth to move up to #2 overall...assuming of course Dahlen goes #1.

 

Then we have to look at the possible trading partners and who wins the lottery.

 

3) With the likes Arizona / Buffalo / Ottawa, would you be able to swing a trade with either of them?

 

If Arizona wins lottery ...do they go offense or defense?  Arizona is struggling defensively so I say they take Dahlen then that leaves Buffalo / Ottawa at #2.

 

If Buffalo wins lottery ...same question..... I say Buffalo goes defensive, but I could make an argument that they want a scoring winger with Eichel.

 

If Ottawa wins lottery, they could let Karlsson go and draft his replacement in Dahlen.  That leaves Buffalo / Arizona at possibly #2

 

Granted it is WAY TOO EARLY to guess...but it is a fun exercise.   LOL Wouldn't it be grate if the Flyers got lucky 2 years in a row and win the lottery!  Except this time they draft #1! 

 

So many variable.... LOL!

 

i guess before we go down this game of speculation...the #1 question has to be asked....like I mentioned above....

 

Would you consider Svechnikov a generational type player? 

 

this has to be answered first before any ideas of trading up can be entertained.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I don't think any of the top 20 in this draft are generational. Are they franchise players? You bet. Are there some players better than others? No doubt. Are there any of them a Crosby or Stamkos or Karlsson? No. However, there are guys who could turn out to be played like Drew Doughty, Ryan Suter, Anze Kopitar, Eric Staal, Rick Nash, etc.....

 

As mentioned, there are a lot of good players in this draft and it could be like the 2003 draft from the sheer volume of depth. Right now, the best thing to do is continue down the draft path and continue to draft quality and quantity. The more quality and quantity that's in the pipeline, the easier it is to make deals to strengthen other areas of need. Right now, the pipeline is real good, but two more drafts and it's going to be disgustingly overflowing and that's where the Flyers can then afford to make deals and move prospects and picks for proven players.

[RonJeremy]

My initial thought in writing my post was if we did trade Simmonds and then have three first rounders , is there anyone that is worth  giving up those three picks to move to the top of the draft. If not , then maybe you do a deal like we did to get Konecny, where we move up a few spots if there is a guy we really like ,but you don’t aim for the top of the draft. We have to prepare for the reality of losing Simmonds, there is no way we can afford him on top of Giroux , Voraceks  9 million each and the imminent big raises for Provorov and our other young dmen if they develop as expected.  Simmonds should certainly get us similar returns we got for Carter and Richards.

 

[elmatus]

I have a hard time trading three first rounders just to get one guy who is likely not generational caliber to begin with. Would trading three 1st give us a generational player, if so then definitely. Is Svechnikov that kind of guy? I highly doubt it.

 

Again, all of the players I mentioned were very well known and projected to be generational level for years before they were drafted. I haven't heard anything of the sort of Svechnikov. Would three picks be worth JVR? Sam Reinhart? Another Patrick?

 

I'm thinking I keep the three 1sts.

[RonJeremy]

Three first rounders isn’t a bad thing...From the looks of Patrick at this point , I almost  wish we had traded down and not picked him at all. I don’t see any part of his game that stands out. I know he had injuries and , the type of injuries he had usually take long to get back to full strength. So I just hope that next season he makes a huge improvement and starts to score. The Flyers have drafted pretty well in the first round over the past 15 years , we are probably due to draft a lemon, I just hope Patrick isn’t that lemon. I just have a feeling some of the guys who were picked later are going to be better than Patrick.

[brelic]

41 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I have a hard time trading three first rounders just to get one guy who is likely not generational caliber to begin with. Would trading three 1st give us a generational player, if so then definitely. Is Svechnikov that kind of guy? I highly doubt it.

 

Again, all of the players I mentioned were very well known and projected to be generational level for years before they were drafted. I haven't heard anything of the sort of Svechnikov. Would three picks be worth JVR? Sam Reinhart? Another Patrick?

 

I'm thinking I keep the three 1sts.

 

I think we’re interchanging generational and franchise terms. 

 

Generational, to me, is Wayne Gretzky. Mario Lemieux. Sidney Crosby. And possibly Connor McDavid.

 

Franchise is a tier lower, like Tavares, Matthews, Stamkos, Giroux, Doughty, Price. 

 

So is Svechnikov a franchise player? 

 

Elite goal scorer with size who combines power and finesse with an exceptional understanding of his role as a top line talent. Svechnikov has the uncanny ability to not only stickhandle in and around traffic, but also position himself away from the puck while defenders are fixated on his equally skilled linemates. You have to keep tabs on Svechnikov at all times, and it seems as if opponents play tentative every time he’s on the ice. Svechnikov is a very good skater with a powerful stride and exceptional balance, and he uses his speed to create separation even although he shouldn’t be defined as a road runner. He possesses a blistering shot with one of the quicker releases you’ll find — Svechnikov can score on set plays off a faceoff or rifle one from the circles. Few prospects over the last decade have been able to consistently light up opposing goalies than Svechnikov, who as a 16-year-old was the USHL’s Rookie of Year in 2017 and placed third with a 1.21 points-per-game average.

[elmatus]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

Franchise is a tier lower, like Tavares, Matthews, Stamkos, Giroux, Doughty, Price. 

 

I'm not sure we are, but I would definitely have Tavares and Stamkos in as generational talents. Give Tavares a Malkin and Letang, and I'm thinking this is a very different conversation. That's not even considering Kessel and Hornqvist. Point being, the Pens have done a much better job providing Crosby with quality players. Garth Snow would be considered the worst GM of his generation if it wasn't for Homer. 

 

And Stamkos has been a monster virtually his entire career. He's really only had one rival sniper anywhere near his caliber since he's entered the NHL. He's definitely generational in my book. Speaking of that other sniper, I notice you've left him off too. Not sure why.

 

And no Big E? I get the short career, but he was every bit the generational player nonetheless.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

I have a hard time trading three first rounders just to get one guy

 

 

This is where i am at too.

 

For a Mcdavid sure i can see doing it.

 

But to trade 3 rolls of the dice for one roll of the dice doesn't make sense to me.

 

I pass and keep the 3 1st rounders and trust Ron to turn them into something nice.

 

Continue to walk the path they are walking down now towards the rebuild.

 

If i was to even consider it...it would have to be for an already proven kid. And still i would have to think about it.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

14 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

My initial thought in writing my post was if we did trade Simmonds and then have three first rounders , is there anyone that is worth  giving up those three picks to move to the top of the draft. If not , then maybe you do a deal like we did to get Konecny, where we move up a few spots if there is a guy we really like ,but you don’t aim for the top of the draft. We have to prepare for the reality of losing Simmonds, there is no way we can afford him on top of Giroux , Voraceks  9 million each and the imminent big raises for Provorov and our other young dmen if they develop as expected.  Simmonds should certainly get us similar returns we got for Carter and Richards.

 

 

I have no problems moving Simmonds. The problem is going to be getting value for him. He's having a down year (he's definitely playing hurt/injured), but he's also signed for another year, so that should help retain some value. Earlier in the year, I was hoping for Simmonds to Nashville for a package of Fiala, Tolvanen and Fabbro. However, Simmonds worth is considerably less. The hope is that he gets on a hot streak in the new year and tears it up and gets back to that 30 goal pace (he's on pace for 24 goals right now). If he does, the Flyers have a very valuable asset to help the rebuild and more important, there's money that's freed up for future signings.

[brelic]

8 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I'm not sure we are, but I would definitely have Tavares and Stamkos in as generational talents. Give Tavares a Malkin and Letang, and I'm thinking this is a very different conversation. That's not even considering Kessel and Hornqvist. Point being, the Pens have done a much better job providing Crosby with quality players. Garth Snow would be considered the worst GM of his generation if it wasn't for Homer. 

 

And Stamkos has been a monster virtually his entire career. He's really only had one rival sniper anywhere near his caliber since he's entered the NHL. He's definitely generational in my book. Speaking of that other sniper, I notice you've left him off too. Not sure why.

 

And no Big E? I get the short career, but he was every bit the generational player nonetheless.

 

I don’t disagree that all of them are awesome players, it’s just that a generational talent is supposed to be rare. Once or twice in a generation. When you start giving that description to a dozen players, generational doesn’t mean much anymore, know what I mean?

 

 

[elmatus]

14 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I don’t disagree that all of them are awesome players, it’s just that a generational talent is supposed to be rare. Once or twice in a generation. When you start giving that description to a dozen players, generational doesn’t mean much anymore, know what I mean?

 

 

 

Fair enough. Maybe this conversation needs another descriptor then, or maybe the term 'franchise' should also be very limited.

 

Put another way, Crosby and McDavid are likely better than someone like Stamkos, Tavares, or Ovechkin, but I wouldn't consider the difference very big. If Matthews keeps chugging as he is, he's likely up in that list as well. So, if that's what we're talking about when we say franchise player, then I think we can pretty safely say there is unlikely to be such a guy up for grabs in 2018. Even Stamkos/Tavares/Ovechkin/Matthews were extremely highly touted in their draft years, well beyond the majority of 1st overall picks. If that list is what we're calling 'franchise', that should probably be pretty limited as well. 

 

Giroux for instance is not any of the names above. I suppose that means he wouldn't be a franchise player. That's probably a fair assessment in this case.

 

Also, in a year where a dman is ranked first overall, it seems highly unlikely there are any players of the caliber noted above. There could always be some surprise player to come out of it, but if we're talking potentially trading two or even three 1st round picks, I really don't think this is the year to do anything like that.

[yave1964]

Hoping Svechnikov comes to the Wings so we can have both of them, Evgeny is playing for the Griffins right now and Andrei would be a nice addition. I am afraid that they aren't the next Sedin boys tho, more likely the next Kostitsyns......especialy if he ends up in Detroit with the way that our luck has been for the past several years.

 

  

[brelic]

18 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Fair enough. Maybe this conversation needs another descriptor then, or maybe the term 'franchise' should also be very limited.

 

Put another way, Crosby and McDavid are likely better than someone like Stamkos, Tavares, or Ovechkin, but I wouldn't consider the difference very big. If Matthews keeps chugging as he is, he's likely up in that list as well. So, if that's what we're talking about when we say franchise player, then I think we can pretty safely say there is unlikely to be such a guy up for grabs in 2018. Even Stamkos/Tavares/Ovechkin/Matthews were extremely highly touted in their draft years, well beyond the majority of 1st overall picks. If that list is what we're calling 'franchise', that should probably be pretty limited as well. 

 

Giroux for instance is not any of the names above. I suppose that means he wouldn't be a franchise player. That's probably a fair assessment in this case.

 

Also, in a year where a dman is ranked first overall, it seems highly unlikely there are any players of the caliber noted above. There could always be some surprise player to come out of it, but if we're talking potentially trading two or even three 1st round picks, I really don't think this is the year to do anything like that.

 

Yeah, it’s a fun exercise in semantics

 

I would consider Giroux a franchise player, but only in retrospect. At the time, a #22 overall seems low, but he would be no lower than 4th in a redraft (Toews, Backstrom and Kessel may go ahead of him). He makes players around him better and is definitely a special player. 

 

So i think there’s definitely at least one guy like that in the draft, but is it Svechnikov? Otherwise, it becomes a guessing game. 

 

So maybe 3 draft picks isn’t worth it for a shot at Svechnikov when we have three chances at finding something similar. 

[elmatus]

43 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Yeah, it’s a fun exercise in semantics

 

I would consider Giroux a franchise player, but only in retrospect. At the time, a #22 overall seems low, but he would be no lower than 4th in a redraft (Toews, Backstrom and Kessel may go ahead of him). He makes players around him better and is definitely a special player. 

 

So i think there’s definitely at least one guy like that in the draft, but is it Svechnikov? Otherwise, it becomes a guessing game. 

 

So maybe 3 draft picks isn’t worth it for a shot at Svechnikov when we have three chances at finding something similar. 

 

I’m not sure we need a top three pick to get another Giroux, so I’m not sure i’d trade a bundle on that gamble. The NHL is littered with Giroux-like players who were taken well outside the top three. 

 

So, if what we’re hoping for is another Giroux, I don’t think that requires a trade anyway. If what we’re talking about is someone better than Giroux, then maybe. But we would all know that player by now. He’d be all over the wire and likely would have been for some years now. 

[brelic]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I’m not sure we need a top three pick to get another Giroux, so I’m not sure i’d trade a bundle on that gamble. The NHL is littered with Giroux-like players who were taken well outside the top three. 

 

So, if what we’re hoping for is another Giroux, I don’t think that requires a trade anyway. If what we’re talking about is someone better than Giroux, then maybe. But we would all know that player by now. He’d be all over the wire and likely would have been for some years now. 

 

Right, but then no team would trade away the top pick if that were the case. 

 

Oh well. 

[Philly29]

I would love for the Flyers to be able to make a trade with Detroit and get Anthony Mantha. I really like the kid, 6'/5" big guy and is predicted to be a scorer. Obviously we are talking about the draft and not trading for active nhl plyers but we really do need more size and grit, especially a need for a potential goal scorer for the team. We got enough young talent and picks to be able to make things happen.

 

 

[King Knut]

On 12/26/2017 at 10:56 AM, RonJeremy said:

We should probably have a pick in the top 15 or hopefully top 10 , plus the Blues pick and if we move Simmonds for a pick and some prospects, we could have 3 first rounders. Is there a standout “goal scorer” with some size available or is there any high end guy worth trading  up for ?

We are in desperate need of a finisher , all our offensive players are pass first guys. I know we have drafted some big wingers , but they are a couple of years away .I’m wondering if there is a guy that can possibly step in and produce immediately. We need some scoring and if Simmonds is moved due to cap reasons , we will lose our best finisher. Our flashy guys are on the small side and Giroux, Weal ,Konecny, Martel, etc. Lindblom is improving, but still a question mark as to how much of a scorer he will be. I believe Weal will be in the minors or traded next season and you will see Vecchione ,Lindblom or Martel  replace him. So is there a sniper with some size we can target for the upcoming draft?

 

It looks like we got him last year.  See: Frost, Morgan.