Morgan Frost

[radoran]

12 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Hisnone assist in 15 games showed that Chicago put him on 4th dumpster duty during their playoff push and cut his minutes drastically.  

 

At at least that's a valid argument for the decline. 

 

Sure, it's absolutely a bad signing, but really only in hindsight. 

 

The biggest thing I'll fault Hextall on is the duration which could surely have been shorter but his salary isn't terrible.  Comparing it to the Mac signing is extreme. It didn't work out.  It's like like it's Mac or VLC or Bryzgalov or trading JVR for Luke Schenn.   It's not the kind of signing that shackles the team for a decade.  It just means they're stuck with a sub par player. If they bought him out now, they'd barely feel the penalty and they can bury him in the press box or the AHL as soon as they feel Lindblom Martel, or Vecchione are ready. It's a bad signing but really come on... it's no biggie. The biggie is continuing to play him every night when Better options that are part of your future exist. 

 

 

So, to sum up: bad signing?

 

The Mac point is that giving a player who has never had length and term, length and term can change a player.

 

See: Read, Matt

 

Having a Weise on the roster changes how a coach makes decisions. His salary alone influences who plays

 It just does. 

 

Weise is a player a possible contender picks up for a playoff run. Chicago did that, and cut him loose 19 games later.

 

And the Flyers gave him a four year deal making more than twice what he ever made before.

 

Bad. Signing.

 

I'll wager you're not going to see Weise in the AHL for the duration of his contract, barring an injury rehabilitation. And they're certainly not buying him out.

 

So he's a waste of a roster spot. Another waste, when you look at the Lehteras of the world.

 

Bad. Signing.

[ruxpin]

28 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

 

 Yes it was NOT true.

 

That confused the crap out of me.   (my initial "that post was true" was referencing your post (being true).   I think I'm still confused, though.

[ruxpin]

29 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

I actually watched Weise in his Montreal years....and have many coworkers who I talk to on a daily basis that are huge Hab fans. 

 

I'm sorry on both counts.

[jammer2]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

That confused the crap out of me.   (my initial "that post was true" was referencing your post (being true).   I think I'm still confused, though.

 

 ha ha....my bad, thought you were referring to vis's post...I actually thought "I wonder if he was agreeing with me"...LOL

[OccamsRazor]

11 hours ago, Philly29 said:

People have no freaking patience, we finally have a GM who knows the value of draft picks and yes it does take time to build a winner and people like you still complain.

 

Look man Ron isn't perfect. I'm not calling to fire him. But he has not impressed me with his moves with the free agents and some of his trades.

 

I like the picks he got for Schenn because Schenn didn't fit. However having to watching Lehtera in the lineup is hard.

 

I'm sure soon as he is gone it will look like a better move. Just like the Hartnell and RJ move while RJ was here it was hard to stomach.

 

Once he was gone....much better.

 

But he admitted he was part of the Mcdud fiasco. And he brought Weise in. If Weise had got a 2 year deal it wouldn't be so bad.

 

But 4 years?? No.

 

I'm hoping he will be more prudent moving forward. They will have a lot of cap room in the coming years it is crucial he makes the right steps with the free agents and resigning of current players. The draft and kids he is nailing. Free agency he needs to work on.

 

I think that is fair. And my apologies for the smart ass comment i didn't think you'd be that offended...i'm a smart ass all the time.

[briere48]

14 hours ago, Philly29 said:

 

 

I know the team is looking mediocre but why is everything always negative, negative, negative with people regarding this team? People have no freaking patience, we finally have a GM who knows the value of draft picks and yes it does take time to build a winner and people like you still complain.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

i would be patient if this team was playing like they are winning and going in the playoffs every year but it's been the same problems for the last six years with their inconsistency, im not going to be patient for that and it's been happening ever since giroux was captain, i know everyone loves him for his points but he's not leadership material because we are always changing coaches and players every year and nothing has changed, so where does it fall on? im not saying trade giroux, im saying change the leadership, put the c on a different player. because everything from giroux is the same nonsense and they are playing the same way.

 

if it's not the coach, then it's the leadership.

[flyercanuck]

13 minutes ago, briere48 said:

 

i would be patient if this team was playing like they are winning and going in the playoffs every year but it's been the same problems for the last six years with their inconsistency, im not going to be patient for that and it's been happening ever since giroux was captain, i know everyone loves him for his points but he's not leadership material because we are always changing coaches and players every year and nothing has changed, so where does it fall on? im not saying trade giroux, im saying change the leadership, put the c on a different player. because everything from giroux is the same nonsense and they are playing the same way.

 

if it's not the coach, then it's the leadership.

 

Leaders lead...it doesn't matter who has the C. 

[mojo1917]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:20 AM, King Knut said:

It's a bad signing but really come on... it's no biggie. The biggie is continuing to play him every night when Better options that are part of your future exist.

this

[King Knut]

On 1/5/2018 at 10:59 PM, jammer2 said:

 

 Don't know if I ever told you this, but you are one of my favourite posters. You have this amazing gift for seeing the big picture and putting things in the proper context. Having said that, don't agree with your Kane comment. He scored the Cup winning goal in a tight 6 game series in OT. The goal was one that only an elite sniper could have scored. Kane does not rip that puck in there, Flyers have a real nice chance to win that series. Plus, he was the leading scorer for all 3 Hawks cup wins, I don't see how you could play a bigger, more important role in the Hawks championship runs. 

That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me here.  Thank you.  You're swell too!

 

re: Kane, I get it.  I guess what I mean is that it wasn't PATRICK KANE and then some other guys.  He was the most skilled player on an extremely well fleshed out and talented roster.  

 

I've often wondered how many cups the Flyers win with Kane if they'd been awarded the #1 overall pick the year they were so so so terrible.  

 

I just can't even imagine adding Patrick Kane to that Roster.  It's mind numbing and a bit depressing what could have happened and perhaps more importantly what WOULDN'T have happened next.

 

Then again, If Kane was a Flyer they probably would have put him in Jail for both the Taxi Cab assault and the Sexual Assault.  

 

[King Knut]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:04 PM, ruxpin said:

 

Well, your name could be Leighton.

 HA HA HA HA HA HA HA 

 

....Oh god it still hurts.  

[King Knut]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:27 PM, radoran said:

 

So, to sum up: bad signing?

 

The Mac point is that giving a player who has never had length and term, length and term can change a player.

 

See: Read, Matt

 

Having a Weise on the roster changes how a coach makes decisions. His salary alone influences who plays

 It just does. 

 

Weise is a player a possible contender picks up for a playoff run. Chicago did that, and cut him loose 19 games later.

 

And the Flyers gave him a four year deal making more than twice what he ever made before.

 

Bad. Signing.

 

I'll wager you're not going to see Weise in the AHL for the duration of his contract, barring an injury rehabilitation. And they're certainly not buying him out.

 

So he's a waste of a roster spot. Another waste, when you look at the Lehteras of the world.

 

Bad. Signing.

 

If Weise is a player a possible Contender picks up for the playoffs, they're going to lose in the playoffs.

Timmonen is a guy a contender picks up.

 

The fact that Chicago THOUGHT he was a guy who could help speaks volumes though.

 

There are good signings (Jagr) and there are bad signings (Bryzgalov).  It's a sliding scale full of grays, not a black and white issue.

 

In the Grand scheme of things Dale Weise is a meh singing.  His cap hit and duration aren't hurting the team right now, nor were they ever in a position to.  If they didn't want to play him, they wouldn't play him and it wouldn't hurt the team.  He's not wasting a roster spot, because he simply wouldn't be on the roster if they didn't prefer playing him.  The fact that they prefer playing him... THAT'S HOW THE ROSTER SPOT IS BEING WASTED>  

 

Focusing on Dale Weise's contract right now is more than a tad absurd.  His contract doesn't matter a whit.  

 

The fact that he's playing minutes over guys like Vecchione and LIndblom and Varone and Martel, etc...  THAT's the criticism I have of Hextall.  

 

I honestly can't even figure out why we're debating his the merits of his contract.  It's a non issue for this team.  The fact that he's playing every night... THAT's the issue.  

 

[King Knut]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:27 PM, radoran said:

 

The Mac point is that giving a player who has never had length and term, length and term can change a player.

 

See: Read, Matt

 

 

And don't you think Read's drop off have a lot more to do with Hakstol taking over the entire team's general decline at even strength and oh by the way he's 31 y/o competing against 19 year olds??    Even so, I'd sooner see him playing in these games than Lehtera... who i guess is what?  Bigger?  

 

 

On 1/5/2018 at 11:27 PM, radoran said:

I'll wager you're not going to see Weise in the AHL for the duration of his contract, barring an injury rehabilitation. And they're certainly not buying him out.

 

 

Not sure why you're saying this.  Matt Read is almost certainly in the AHL because he is 31 and in the last year of his contract.  It's a cruel joke to play on a guy who's worked hard for your club for 7 years.  In two years when Weise is 31 and in the last year of his contract, why do you think he won't be in the AHL?

 

I kinda assume he'll be traded or in the AHL next year or at the very least, he'll consistently be the 21st fwd in the press box.  

 

He's playing now because Hextall is scared poopless that playing yet another rookie with offensive upside will equate to more goals against.    Essentially, he's playing now because Konecny, Weal and Patrick have left a lot to be desired in the defensive zone and Hextall and Hakstol are terrified that Linblom or Vecchione would do the same...  Vecchione probably wouldn't, he's a very responsible forward... but he's a natural center and the heir apparent for Laughton if they choose not to resign him next year.  

 

 

[King Knut]

On 1/6/2018 at 5:45 AM, OccamsRazor said:

 

Look man Ron isn't perfect. I'm not calling to fire him. But he has not impressed me with his moves with the free agents and some of his trades.

 

I like the picks he got for Schenn because Schenn didn't fit. However having to watching Lehtera in the lineup is hard.

 

I'm sure soon as he is gone it will look like a better move. Just like the Hartnell and RJ move while RJ was here it was hard to stomach.

 

Once he was gone....much better.

 

But he admitted he was part of the Mcdud fiasco. And he brought Weise in. If Weise had got a 2 year deal it wouldn't be so bad.

 

But 4 years?? No.

 

I'm hoping he will be more prudent moving forward. They will have a lot of cap room in the coming years it is crucial he makes the right steps with the free agents and resigning of current players. The draft and kids he is nailing. Free agency he needs to work on.

 

I think that is fair. And my apologies for the smart ass comment i didn't think you'd be that offended...i'm a smart ass all the time.

 

 

What I will add to this as a concession and potential criticism of Hextall (I say potential because I could be just dead wrong, I really don't know) is that from the outside, he sometimes seems to punish players (and coaches) for giving him crap.  

 

Jeff Reese was fare more valuable to this team than Berube... Hextall probably knew he was firing Berube at the end of the season... yet he still forced Reese to quit after Reese spoke out of turn (and was completely 100% right in doing so IMHO).  Then the goalies sucked the next two years.  How's that make any sense unless Hextall just did it out of spite or to preserve some macho chain or command B.S.?

 

Things seemed similar when he withheld contracts to guys like White (which lead to us signing Weise) and ultimately Mason.  These guys yapped out loud a bit.  Probably wanted more than Hextall had to give... so buh bye to you.  

 

Weal spent a useless year in the AHL when he could have been contributing at the NHL level.  Phantoms frmr asst Riley Cote admitted it was probably for "political" reasons (which to me means either Weal said the wrong thing to the wrong person or Hextall was worried about the optics of playing him over someone Hakstol liked better (like Vandevelde or PEB).

 

But for him to not be able to sign better talent than Dale Weise...  Aside from Grabner... which let's face it who can explain that deal and his subsequent emergence? what player did you think he should have signed for less and difference do you think it would have made?

 

Not being rhetorical, I'm really curious.

 

 

 

[King Knut]

On 1/6/2018 at 9:01 AM, briere48 said:

 

i would be patient if this team was playing like they are winning and going in the playoffs every year but it's been the same problems for the last six years with their inconsistency, im not going to be patient for that and it's been happening ever since giroux was captain, i know everyone loves him for his points but he's not leadership material because we are always changing coaches and players every year and nothing has changed, so where does it fall on? im not saying trade giroux, im saying change the leadership, put the c on a different player. because everything from giroux is the same nonsense and they are playing the same way.

 

if it's not the coach, then it's the leadership.

 

Not that I disagree (because it's long been my argument that this team is too used to losing) but I do think right now there's a coaching problem.  

 

There was a coaching problem with Berube too.  

 

Homer firing Lavvy after 3 games witha CRAP lineup... there's a good starting point for their current woes.  

 

Heck, I didn't want them to fire Stevens.  I thought he was a good coach whose only problem was that his players thought he was "one of the guys" instead of the boss.  I also think that Stevens wasn't fired becasue the team was losing but because well crap.  Peter Laviolette was available AND the team was losing, so why the hell not?

 

Hakstol has a lot of things going for him as a coach.  He's not as clueless as Berube.  They are very different.  Berube's teams were just lost and confused.  He literally had his defensemen facing the wrong direction 75% of the time.  

 

But until I see a coach NOT making stupid mistakes and putting his team in a position to lose... he's not getting off the hook.  

[King Knut]

On 1/6/2018 at 9:15 AM, flyercanuck said:

 

Leaders lead...it doesn't matter who has the C. 

 

Well I would have thought that, but sometimes leaders whine and complain in the press and sew distrust and frustration in the locker room until they get the actual captain and alternate traded for some magic beans... and then have their careers ended early and leave the team with a complete leadership void all because they're tough guys who refuse to wear eye shields.  

[King Knut]

On 1/6/2018 at 11:21 AM, mojo1917 said:

this

 

Thank you... it's all I'm saying.  

 

It's like Hextall paid market value for some cheese that turned out to be moldy when he got home.  Oh well... that happens. 

That's not a crime.  BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE, why put it on your Burgers every night?

[vis]

On 1/5/2018 at 6:10 PM, King Knut said:

Not sure how you assess talent.  Aside from Weise and Lehtera (who have both played well in the past) this is a pretty talented lineup... most of whom are massively underforming compared to their scouting and talent assessments.  

The bottom 6 has zero talent.  The words talent do not come to mind re: Laughton, Leier, Raffl, Weise or Lehtera.  Too early for Patrick.  The defense, aside from Provorov and Ghost, is not talented.  In fact, the defense is very young.  The goaltenders are not talented.  I don't love Hakstol by any stretch, but I think you also have to evaluate the strength of the roster.  From my vantage point, it's not very strong.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 6:10 PM, King Knut said:

 

They have a coach who’s lost.  Give them a good one and  watch out. 

I think a different coach could improve some things.  But I don't think a new coach would automatically make them a top 3 team in the division.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 6:10 PM, King Knut said:

It’s a LOT like Hitchcock. 

I don't know what this means.

[jammer2]

4 minutes ago, vis said:

The bottom 6 has zero talent.  The words talent do not come to mind re: Laughton, Leier, Raffl, Weise or Lehtera.  Too early for Patrick.  The defense, aside from Provorov and Ghost, is not talented.  In fact, the defense is very young.  The goaltenders are not talented.  I don't love Hakstol by any stretch, but I think you also have to evaluate the strength of the roster.  From my vantage point, it's not very strong.

 

 

Agreed (how could I "not"). The bottom six is woeful. Thankfully, I view these guys as place card holders. Fillers that are holding places for our young talent to fill the void. We have no long term attachment to any of these guys. It's time the org recognized Laughton was a miss as a first round pick and assess his spot in the org, ditto for the other stiffs you mentioned. Don't care if Raffl scored 20 once, he is blah, and got lucky that year playing with talented players. 

 

 The way I see it, parity is so prevalent in the NHL....you need 4 key things from your roster to be considered elite

 

1)you MUST create natural mismatches with your bottom six, ie scoring from guys who don't receive any attention from checkers.

 

2)You Must have a legit starter in net....

 

3)you MUST have a legit back up who can provide pts when the elite starter is not in net. We have none of that.

 

4)On top of all that, your defence MUST have a strong transition game.

 

To be nice, this can all be viewed as a work in progress. We have to hope the picks Hexy has made will provide these 4 key components. It will take a good 3-4 years to see if this is true, so I view that as Hexy's shelflife moving forward. We can only hope. 

[vis]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:04 PM, jammer2 said:

 

This is just not true. Weise was a 3rd line role player for his whole stay in Montreal. He never played with stars, and he never appeared on the top Habs pp. Once and a while he was inserted on the Habs 2nd pp, but by no means was he a fixture there. He got noticed because of good old fashioned hard work. In hindsight, a horrible signing, but I can see why he was targeted.

He averaged 1:42 in PP time per game in 15/16.  Puts him 6th among forwards with more than 50GP for the Canadiens.  That's more than once in a while in my book.  In 14/15, he spent the majority of his time playing with a combination of Pacioretty, Desharnais and Plekanec on his line.  Those aren't grinder lines.  I'll give you that he didn't play as much with Pacioretty and Plekanec in 15/16 at even strength.

[vis]

11 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

 

Agreed (how could I "not"). The bottom six is woeful. Thankfully, I view these guys as place card holders. Fillers that are holding places for our young talent to fill the void. We have no long term attachment to any of these guys. It's time the org recognized Laughton was a miss as a first round pick and assess his spot in the org, ditto for the other stiffs you mentioned. Don't care if Raffl scored 20 once, he is blah, and got lucky that year playing with talented players. 

 

 The way I see it, parity is so prevalent in the NHL....you need 4 key things from your roster to be considered elite

 

1)you MUST create natural mismatches with your bottom six, ie scoring from guys who don't receive any attention from checkers.

 

2)You Must have a legit starter in net....

 

3)you MUST have a legit back up who can provide pts when the elite starter is not in net. We have none of that.

 

4)On top of all that, your defence MUST have a strong transition game.

 

To be nice, this can all be viewed as a work in progress. We have to hope the picks Hexy has made will provide these 4 key components. It will take a good 3-4 years to see if this is true, so I view that as Hexy's shelflife moving forward. We can only hope. 

Agree with all of that.  The team is still in transition mode, unfortunately.  

 

My point to KK was that while Hakstol gets a lot of heat (deservedly so in most instances), the roster isn't that talented to begin with.

 

They are only one point out of the wild card spot with two games in hand on Pitt and one on the Islanders (granted, Carolina has a game in hand on the Flyers).  They are about where they were probably expected to be.  

 

What would we think of Hakstol (and the team in general) if they had the same number of points, but not these ridiculous highs and lows?  I.e., would we be as critical if they were consistently average, instead of Jekyll and Hyde?

[jammer2]

8 minutes ago, vis said:

He averaged 1:42 in PP time per game in 15/16.  Puts him 6th among forwards with more than 50GP for the Canadiens.  That's more than once in a while in my book.  In 14/15, he spent the majority of his time playing with a combination of Pacioretty, Desharnais and Plekanec on his line.  Those aren't grinder lines.  I'll give you that he didn't play as much with Pacioretty and Plekanec in 15/16 at even strength.

 

 Not the way I remember it, or my buddies who follow closely. He had less than 10 pp pts in his whole Habs career, so that is pretty brutal given ice time. Don't ever remember him playing with the big guns, but I trust your research. 

[jammer2]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Agree with all of that.  The team is still in transition mode, unfortunately.  

 

My point to KK was that while Hakstol gets a lot of heat (deservedly so in most instances), the roster isn't that talented to begin with.

 

They are only one point out of the wild card spot with two games in hand on Pitt and one on the Islanders (granted, Carolina has a game in hand on the Flyers).  They are about where they were probably expected to be.  

 

What would we think of Hakstol (and the team in general) if they had the same number of points, but not these ridiculous highs and lows?  I.e., would we be as critical if they were consistently average, instead of Jekyll and Hyde?

 

 Yes, that is the frustrating part, the lack of consistency, these teaser 7 game winning streaks encapsulated in horrific losing skids before and after. Hak can't play the game, but you wonder if someone can get more out of a team that seems to be better at times. 

[brelic]

21 minutes ago, vis said:

The bottom 6 has zero talent.  The words talent do not come to mind re: Laughton, Leier, Raffl, Weise or Lehtera.  Too early for Patrick.  The defense, aside from Provorov and Ghost, is not talented.  In fact, the defense is very young.  The goaltenders are not talented.  I don't love Hakstol by any stretch, but I think you also have to evaluate the strength of the roster.  From my vantage point, it's not very strong.

 

I guess I'd ask who you label as the bottom 6. It's not often that Weise and Lehtera are in the lineup together,  and the bottom 6 as it currently stands, includes Patrick and Weal. 

 

In any case, I'll focus specifically on Laughton for this post. I'm not sure how you can say he has no talent. Currently sits at 7g and 13 points. He's got a CF% of 50.8 while starting in the DZ 46% of the time, is on pace for 26 points and 14 goals.

 

By comparison, TB's Paquette has 3 points as 4th line center. Vegas's Bellemare has 6 points, Brodziak has 15 points, CBJ's Sedlak (7 points, now #2C) and Schroeder (0 points), Toronto's Moore (9 points) and Gauthier (0 points in 4 games).... the list goes on.

 

How are those guys more talented than, say, Laughton? He would rank near the top of 4th line producers.

 

I will give you that things can be improved - they always can. But I don't think it's a fair statement to say the bottom six has zero talent.

 

Patrick is raw and quite underdeveloped - but there are flashes of his talent. He will probably be a 50pt guy, at minimum, within 5 years.

 

SO that's two out of six, that in my mind, are talented. 

 

The wingers, meh. But with Weal, you can see he has talent - whether he puts it all together consistently is another story. Raffl is a great puck possession player, but lacks a lot of polish. He can fill in fine in a top 6 role for a short time, but we see his game revert back to the mean. I'd say he's an excellent 4th line winger.

 

Leier, I think is a dime a dozen player that probably won't ever produce much at the NHL level. But he cycles well, and his line is generally defensively responsible.

 

Weise and Lehtera - they have talent and have show it in the past, but it just doesn't show up here in Philly. 

 

So overall, I agree with you in principle, but I think zero talent is a bit harsh.

 

[vis]

1 minute ago, jammer2 said:

 

 Not the way I remember it, or my buddies who follow closely. He had less than 10 pp pts in his whole Habs career, so that is pretty brutal given ice time. Don't ever remember him playing with the big guns, but I trust your research. 

Buddy of mine at work is a Canadiens fan.  He said he remembers him playing top line minutes a few years ago and then not so much.  Dobbersports.com seemed to back that up.  He also said he did not know why he has been as bad as he's been for the Flyers.  Says he thinks things really clicked for him in MTL.  He also said he recalls Weise really wanting to return to MTL, but the Flyers threw a bunch of $$ at him.  He's not sure if the Canadiens' GM tried to sign him.

 

PP stats came from NHL.com.  

[jammer2]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Buddy of mine at work is a Canadiens fan.  He said he remembers him playing top line minutes a few years ago and then not so much.  Dobbersports.com seemed to back that up.  He also said he did not know why he has been as bad as he's been for the Flyers.  Says he thinks things really clicked for him in MTL.  He also said he recalls Weise really wanting to return to MTL, but the Flyers threw a bunch of $$ at him.  He's not sure if the Canadiens' GM tried to sign him.

 

PP stats came from NHL.com.  

 

 Oh, I know he was way better with Montreal than his Flyers stay. Respectable enough that I was kinda excited to get a bottom six guy with heart, savvy and a nice work ethic. It's almost like he sustained a career-altering injury once he got here and has been playing in pain ever since. It's like day and night, the way he played for the Habs and Flyers. These bottom six guys are supposed to be brought up from the org's depth. The more you over spend on the bottom six, the more cap hell you put yourself into. In the end, the scoring punch from a highly thought of prospect at league minimum and a 3 mill 3d liner is almost nil.

 

They have to be smarter moving forward filling in these slots. The goal is to get decent production from the bottom six and make the team tough as hell to play against. We are getting limited results from both those target areas.