Morgan Frost

[vis]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

 

I'm sorry.  I don't think you're being honest any more and that makes it hard to take discussing this seriously.  

Wow.  That's a shame.  Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I am being dishonest.  Perhaps you should take a break from the board and return when capable of dealing with opinions that differ from yours.  Before you do, however, please enlighten me about what you think I am being dishonest about.

[King Knut]

41 minutes ago, vis said:

Wow.  That's a shame.  Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I am being dishonest.  Perhaps you should take a break from the board and return when capable of dealing with opinions that differ from yours.  Before you do, however, please enlighten me about what you think I am being dishonest about.

 

I don’t believe those are your honest opinions.  You’re much smarter than that.

 

 You’re just having fun which is fine, but I don’t feel the need to play along right now.  Maybe later.  There are plenty of people here willing to have fun and actually discuss their opinions and factual information.  

[vis]

23 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I don’t believe those are your honest opinions.  You’re much smarter than that.

 

 You’re just having fun which is fine, but I don’t feel the need to play along right now.  Maybe later.  There are plenty of people here willing to have fun and actually discuss their opinions and factual information.  

Is this a Jedi mind trick?  How on earth can you divine that I am just having fun and don't believe what I'm saying?  I don't post for gamesmanship.  Perhaps you do.  Again, consider taking a break if this is too much for you to deal with.  

 

I honestly believe Hextall gets too much credit for trading Pronger and Lecavalier and, to a lesser degree, with Grossman.  Pronger's contract was intentionally structured so that Hextall could/should make that trade when the time came.  It would have been criminal if he didn't trade it.   I don't think it's any secret that Lecavalier's agent brokered his trade and that he told the Kings he would retire after the season. Is that your dispute?  

 

I could see an argument for Schenn, but I'm not sure we know the dynamics of how/why he was included in that deal.  

 

I agreed that he merits credit for the assets he got for Coburn and Timonen.  I give him credit for how he used those picks.  For the record, I don't consider that unloading bad contracts.  Those were UFA players.  Any GM would be looking to make similar moves.  He got excellent return.  For that, he deserves credit.  What is dishonest about that?

 

I do not think the current roster is strong.  There are plenty of holes.  But, as stated, I agree that the future (3-4 years) looks bright.  How is that dishonest?

 

If you dispute why Gordon was signed, search Hextall's own commentary on that signing.  

 

I dont think the Weise was a good signing - then or in hindsight.  What is dishonest about that?  I haven't said that he should have signed so and so instead.

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Is this a Jedi mind trick?

 

I honestly believe Hextall gets too much credit for trading Pronger and Lecavalier and, to a lesser degree, with Grossman.  I don't think it's any secret that Lecavalier's agent brokered his trade and that he told the Kings he would retire after the season. Is that your dispute?  

 

I could see an argument for Schenn, but I'm not sure we know the dynamics of how/why he was included in that deal.  

 

I agreed that he merits credit for the assets he got for Coburn and Timonen.  I give him credit for how he used those picks.  For the record, I don't consider that unloading bad contracts.  Those were UFA players.  Any GM would be looking to make similar moves.  He got excellent return.  For that, he deserves credit.  What is dishonest about that?

 

I do not think the current roster is strong.  There are plenty of holes.  But, as stated, I agree that the future (3-4 years) looks bright.  How is that dishonest?

 

If you dispute why Gordon was signed, search Hextall's own commentary on that signing.  

 

I dont think the Weise was a good signing - then or in hindsight.  What is dishonest about that?  I haven't said that he should have signed so and so instead.

 Holmgren traded Pronger, not Hextall.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Is this a Jedi mind trick?  How on earth can you divine that I am just having fun and don't believe what I'm saying?  I don't post for gamesmanship.  Perhaps you do.  Again, consider taking a break if this is too much for you to deal with.  

 

I honestly believe Hextall gets too much credit for trading Pronger and Lecavalier and, to a lesser degree, with Grossman.  I don't think it's any secret that Lecavalier's agent brokered his trade and that he told the Kings he would retire after the season. Is that your dispute?  

 

I could see an argument for Schenn, but I'm not sure we know the dynamics of how/why he was included in that deal.  

 

I agreed that he merits credit for the assets he got for Coburn and Timonen.  I give him credit for how he used those picks.  For the record, I don't consider that unloading bad contracts.  Those were UFA players.  Any GM would be looking to make similar moves.  He got excellent return.  For that, he deserves credit.  What is dishonest about that?

 

I do not think the current roster is strong.  There are plenty of holes.  But, as stated, I agree that the future (3-4 years) looks bright.  How is that dishonest?

 

If you dispute why Gordon was signed, search Hextall's own commentary on that signing.  

 

I dont think the Weise was a good signing - then or in hindsight.  What is dishonest about that?  I haven't said that he should have signed so and so instead.

 

Seriously, I'm taking your advice.  This IS me taking a break.  

 

 

[vis]

1 minute ago, FD19372 said:

 Holmgren traded Pronger, not Hextall.

What?  

 

Hextall traded Pronger's contract to Arizona.  Holmgren traded for Pronger.

 

Is this the Twilight Zone?  Am I being gaslighted?

 

 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

 Holmgren traded Pronger, not Hextall.

 

Pronger was traded 11 months after Hextall became GM. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

 Holmgren traded Pronger, not Hextall.

 

Nope it was Hextall.

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

What?  

 

Hextall traded Pronger's contract to Arizona.  Holmgren traded for Pronger.

 

Is this the Twilight Zone?  Am I being gaslighted?

 

 

My mistake ...it was Hextall. Time flies.

[vis]

 

6 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Seriously, I'm taking your advice.  This IS me taking a break.  

 

 

Don't.  For what it's worth, I appreciate your perspective.  I just got really bothered that you would think I'm being dishonest about facts or my opinions.  

[King Knut]

17 hours ago, vis said:

 

Don't.  For what it's worth, I appreciate your perspective.  I just got really bothered that you would think I'm being dishonest about facts or my opinions.  

 

If you really want to keep going, I guess the thing that I'm not buying about what you're saying is that I just can't believe you think the Weise and Gordon signings really matter.  

 

People seem obsessed with whether or not they were bad signings... I could honestly care less because I don't think they matter at all in the least.  If he didn't sign those two he would have signed two others... maybe worse, maybe better, but probably about the same.  

 

Hextall needed warm bodies and as we've seen with Patrick and Knoecney and Sanheim, there are certain advantages that even low end Pro players can bring with NHL experience that talented young players usually need to develop.  I don't think they were bad signings because they were throw away signings.  I just can't imagine how anyone thinks they matter enough to use in argument for or against him. He had to fill out the roster.  He did.  

 

As far as the Pronger deal, you say it was a no brainer and doesn't qualify as a salary dump... but Pronger had been on LTIR for almost 4 years at the point of the trade.  If it was a no brainer, why hadn't it happened yet?  And yes, they were losing Grossman's contract at the end of the year, but they also lost Gagner's contract at the end of the year and that meant they didn't have to deal with Pronger's LTIR for two more years after that.  Salary dump.  

 

And you credit VLC's agent for the Kings deal... but is it a coincidence that the deal happened with Hexy's old team?  The one run by Hextall's former boss?   THe Boss that was subsequently fired for making too many stupid deals and getting hosed by other GM's and player agents?  The team that had made so many sweetheart deals both ways with the Flyers over recent years?  And was it VLC's agent who got 3.6 million off Hextall's books two years sooner?  Was it VLC's agent that got the Kings to toss in 2 picks and the 21 year old that lead the Calder Cup playoff scoring and is now producing about as much as VLC did for less than half the price 3 years later?

 

I just can't see how you attribute both of those deals to other people somehow?  That doesn't seem like an honest assessment of the situation.  

 

The long and short is that when Hextall took over, the Flyers were in Cap hell and looked to be there for the next 5 or 6 years at least.  2 years into him taking over, they are almost $6 million under the cap, look to shed about $30million more in the next two years and have the highest rated prospect pool in the NHL... AND are essentially tied for a playoff position.  

 

If you want to have an honest discussion on this, tell me who he should have signed other than Weise or Gordon that was available and WOULD have made a difference.  

 

Tell me who he should be targeting this off season? 

These are the things that matter to me right now.

 

I think arguing that he hasn't done a good job getting us to this place is a silly and dishonest argument. 

 

Let's argue about whether or not he has it in him to get to the next level and what that looks like because I think that is an assessment that is genuinely difficult to make at this point.  

I'll start a new post to reply to about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

Let's look at it this way...  IF Hextall Buys out MacDonald after next season, in aggregate between now and the start of the 2019-2020 season, he will have $43 million dollars to spend on 16 skaters and 2 goalies.  

 

In that time, I presume he will resign young RFAs (Konecney, Provorov, Hagg, Laughton, Hagg, Sanheim, Morin, Vecchione).

 

-Does he keep Simmonds or try to replace him in the UFA market (not many options as far as I can tell) or via Trade (if Trade, what do you give up)?

-Do guys like Raffl and Weal stick around (presumably for similar salaries) or can he bank on replacing them with the likes of Vecchione and Varone/Martel/Rubtsov/Vvrobyov?

-How much does he give Provorov at this point and for how long?

-Will Hextall be all in on Carter Hart and Sandstrom or will one of them be trade bait and Stolarz the eventual backup?

 

Regardless of most of the above, Hextall WILL HAVE CAP ROOM to spend on GOOD players.  Who should he target?  I've looked ahead and have seen very little that interests me in the UFA market.

 

This time last year I was saying to sell off Simmonds at the deadline and use the existing cap room and Simmonds' and Filppula's cap room to go all in on John Tavares...  Now that we have Patrick and Frost in the works does that still make sense?  I think it does for the next 2 years, but after that?  Whoever signs Tavares will be giving him $10+million for a long time.   Not sure it makes sense any more.

 

Just not feeling great about the other forwards that will be available.  There are good ones... but they will all be in similar positions as simmonds... they will get a lot of money but will probably only be useful for the first three years of what I expect to be long contracts.  

 

 

 

 

 

[vis]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

If you really want to keep going, I guess the thing that I'm not buying about what you're saying is that I just can't believe you think the Weise and Gordon signings really matter.  

 

People seem obsessed with whether or not they were bad signings... I could honestly care less because I don't think they matter at all in the least.  If he didn't sign those two he would have signed two others... maybe worse, maybe better, but probably about the same.  

If we are evaluating Hextall's UFA signings - the ones he actually made - then, yes, they matter because, along with Elliott and Medvedev, that's all that he's done.  So if you are evaluating his ability to navigate UFA, then, yes, those signings matter.  At least to me.  I don't understand why that's problematic.  

 

Quote

He had to fill out the roster.  He did.  

He signed Weise for for four years.  That's not filling out the roster with a warm body.  Filling the roster with a warm body could have been done with someone cheaper than Weise and on a shorter-term deal.  I think they mis-evaluated Weise's ability and fit in the lineup.  Again, my issue with Gordon is that they mis-evaluated the player's ability to fill a role.  He was easy to drop to the AHL.  But that didn't help Giroux, which was the intent.  Again, it shows misjudgment on Hextall's part when it comes to NHL palyers

 

Quote

If it was a no brainer, why hadn't it happened yet?

He went on LTIR in 2011.  You realize that contract was underwater (meaning the actual salary/bonus amount exceeded the cap hit) for the first three years?  He was still owed $4,000,000 in actual salary against a cap hit of $4,935,714 the season ended just before he was traded.  His actual salary dropped to $525,000 against a cap hit of $4,935,714 for the following two seasons (i.e., the seasons for which Arizona acquired him.  Why would any team take on that contract before his salary dropped to $525,000?  Once it did, the contract had great value to a cap floor team (or frankly any team with cap room that would have wanted to extract another asset for acquiring the contract).

 

Grossmann for Gagner is a wash.  Neither was resigned by their respective teams.  Don't really care about the deal.

 

Quote

I just can't see how you attribute both of those deals to other people somehow?  That doesn't seem like an honest assessment of the situation. 

The trade doesn't happen unless Lecavalier agreed to retire.  See below.  

 

https://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2016/4/25/11503898/stop-asking-vincent-lecavalier-if-he-is-retiring-because-he-is-retiring-los-angeles-kings

 

Lecavalier's agent was given permission to seek a trade.  No doubt Hextall was involved to a degree, but giving all credit to Hextall for the trade is misplaced.  I seriously doubt Hextall was pounding the phone and fielding a flurry of offers to trade Lecavalier.

 

Sure, the deal was with the Kings.  Maybe Hextall's mentor and friend, Dean Lombardi thought, in addition to making a hockey trade, it would be good to help his friend and protege.  Btw, Hextall hired Lombardi right after he was fired by LA.  Clearly there is a bond there.  

 

I don't know the dynamics of the Schenn piece.  I do recall that the Kings needed defensive depth heading into the POs.  A couple of things to clarify that I don't think are accurate in your post.  First, Schenn was scheduled to be a UFA at the end of that season and the Flyers retained half of his cap hit as well.  So, they did not save $3.6m in cap space for two years.  The Flyers got a 3rd round pick.  Not sure why you said they got two.  Also, you have to give to get.  Weal was not a player that fit Sutter's mold.  Remains to be seen how consistely productive he can be at the NHL level.  He will be 26 in April.  Not saying a pick and Weal aren't value.

 

Quote

If you want to have an honest discussion on this.

Again with this garbage.  Just stop.  Forget what I said in my earlier post.  Please take a break.  A long one.

 

Quote

tell me who he should have signed other than Weise or Gordon that was available and WOULD have made a difference.  

 At what point have I said there was such a person?

 

You're picking a fight, for whatever, reason, that no one else seems to be having.  If you want to discuss what I have said, fine.  Otherwise, enjoy your shadowboxing.

 

Quote

I'll start a new post to reply to about that.

See my thoughts above on your continued posting.

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, vis said:

If we are evaluating Hextall's UFA signings - the ones he actually made - then, yes, they matter because, along with Elliott and Medvedev, that's all that he's done.  So if you are evaluating his ability to navigate UFA, then, yes, those signings matter.  At least to me.  I don't understand why that's problematic.  

 

He signed Weise for for four years.  That's not filling out the roster with a warm body.  Filling the roster with a warm body could have been done with someone cheaper than Weise and on a shorter-term deal.  I think they mis-evaluated Weise's ability and fit in the lineup.  Again, my issue with Gordon is that they mis-evaluated the player's ability to fill a role.  He was easy to drop to the AHL.  But that didn't help Giroux, which was the intent.  Again, it shows misjudgment on Hextall's part when it comes to NHL palyers

 

He went on LTIR in 2011.  You realize that contract was underwater (meaning the actual salary/bonus amount exceeded the cap hit) for the first three years?  He was still owed $4,000,000 in actual salary against a cap hit of $4,935,714 the season ended just before he was traded.  His actual salary dropped to $525,000 against a cap hit of $4,935,714 for the following two seasons (i.e., the seasons for which Arizona acquired him.  Why would any team take on that contract before his salary dropped to $525,000?  Once it did, the contract had great value to a cap floor team (or frankly any team with cap room that would have wanted to extract another asset for acquiring the contract).

 

Grossmann for Gagner is a wash.  Neither was resigned by their respective teams.  Don't really care about the deal.

 

The trade doesn't happen unless Lecavalier agreed to retire.  See below.  

 

https://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2016/4/25/11503898/stop-asking-vincent-lecavalier-if-he-is-retiring-because-he-is-retiring-los-angeles-kings

 

Lecavalier's agent was given permission to seek a trade.  No doubt Hextall was involved to a degree, but giving all credit to Hextall for the trade is misplaced.  I seriously doubt Hextall was pounding the phone and fielding a flurry of offers to trade Lecavalier.

 

Sure, the deal was with the Kings.  Maybe Hextall's mentor and friend, Dean Lombardi thought, in addition to making a hockey trade, it would be good to help his friend and protege.  Btw, Hextall hired Lombardi right after he was fired by LA.  Clearly there is a bond there.  

 

I don't know the dynamics of the Schenn piece.  I do recall that the Kings needed defensive depth heading into the POs.  A couple of things to clarify that I don't think are accurate in your post.  First, Schenn was scheduled to be a UFA at the end of that season and the Flyers retained half of his cap hit as well.  So, they did not save $3.6m in cap space for two years.  The Flyers got a 3rd round pick.  Not sure why you said they got two.  Also, you have to give to get.  Weal was not a player that fit Sutter's mold.  Remains to be seen how consistely productive he can be at the NHL level.  He will be 26 in April.  Not saying a pick and Weal aren't value.

 

Again with this garbage.  Just stop.  Forget what I said in my earlier post.  Please take a break.  A long one.

 

 At what point have I said there was such a person?

 

You're picking a fight, for whatever, reason, that no one else seems to be having.  If you want to discuss what I have said, fine.  Otherwise, enjoy your shadowboxing.

 

See my thoughts above on your continued posting.

 

Dude... I TRIED TO LET IT GO.  Don’t tell me i’m Picking a fight when I’m The one who tried to walk away.  

 

None of what hat you said refutes any of my points.  If you don’t have better signings to suggest then what the hell are you complaining for and what the hell is the point of the discussion?  

 

“Weise was bad!”

”what should he have done?”

”I dunno but Weise was BAD!!”

 

we we know Weise was bad, but it doesn’t matter because he doesn’t HAVE to play Weise,  YET he is.  That’s the real crime IMHO.  

 

No one (certainly not me) is calling Hextall a genius GM. I’m simply saying that calling him a crap GM solely on the basis of Weise and Gordon is either stupid or just being pissy. 

 

I really don’t think you’re stupid.  I think you’re probably just crabby because the team’s not better yet.  

 

 When he signs a player for a role that matters (Elliott maybe) let’s talk.  I don’t think we have anywhere near a d cent sample size of Hextall actually acquiring players that are intended to matter (for real matter) to judge him.  

 

Gordon couldn’t play the PK or anything else... Giroux’s D zone started and ok time went down anyway.  It didn’t matter.  

 

Weise got 4 years... they don’t need to play him NOW let alone for the next two.  Who cares?  Doesn’t matter.  

 

What’s he gonna do With Simmer now and that $6 Million of cap space at the end of the season or the $43 million over the next two years?  That’s what actually matters. 

 

If you’re concerned that he actually wants more Weises and Gordon’s... I’m really just not worried about that at all. 

[ruxpin]

23 hours ago, FD19372 said:

 Holmgren traded Pronger, not Hextall.

 

That's not true.

 

EDIT:   Obviously been covered and acknowledged.    Sorry about that.

[FD19372]

50 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

That's not true.

 

EDIT:   Obviously been covered and acknowledged.    Sorry about that.

Thanks..now apologize properly by trading me Marc-Andre Fleury for Craig Anderson.

[ruxpin]

Just now, FD19372 said:

Thanks..now apologize properly by trading me Marc-Andre Fleury for Craig Anderson.

Lol

 

NEVER.GONNA.HAPPEN

[vis]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Dude... I TRIED TO LET IT GO.  Don’t tell me i’m Picking a fight when I’m The one who tried to walk away.  

I think we misunderstood each other.  I thought you were going to take a break from the board for a longer time, not just this thread.  I thought that would have been unfortunate, hence my post saying don't do that.  I see now my post was in error (in a few ways).

 

Quote

None of what hat you said refutes any of my points.

That's utterly laughable.  For example, you still think the Pronger contract could have been traded before it was?

 

Quote

If you don’t have better signings to suggest then what the hell are you complaining for and what the hell is the point of the discussion?  

As explained, the point is that Weise and Gordon are examples of Hextall misevaluating UFA talent and fit.  Not that someone else could have been signed.  I hope he gets better at that when the team could benefit from the UFA market.  That's the point.

 

Quote

I’m simply saying that calling him a crap GM solely on the basis of Weise and Gordon is either stupid or just being pissy. 

Your reading comprehension absolutely sucks.  Never, ever have I called Hextall a crap GM.  I leveled a criticism of one aspect of his GM tenure and disagreed with your statement that his ability to unload waste players with bad contracts has been "utterly phenomenal and that can't be overstated."  Well, I disagree and think he gets too much credit.  That's not saying he's a crap GM.  It's saying he gets too much credit for something by some, e.g., you.

 

Rather than assuming things because my comments have twisted your Hextall underoos, why don't you just ask how I feel about his tenure?  I think you'd be surprised by the answer. 

 

Quote

What’s he gonna do With Simmer now and that $6 Million of cap space at the end of the season or the $43 million over the next two years?  That’s what actually matters. 

Good question.  Are we allowed to discuss how Hextall handled Voracek's contract, or does that not matter now when evaluating his track record in this regard?

 

Quote

I really don’t think you’re stupid.  I think you’re probably just crabby because the team’s not better yet. 

**** off with this ****.

[brelic]

The tricky thing about evaluating a GM’s trades and signings is that we are simply not in the room. No one is. There’s so much that goes on benhind the scenes that act as important variables in the outcome.

 

A better measure of a GM’s move would be to know if given what he got/signed/traded, was that the best possible outcome given the circumstances? How much do you try and win, and how much do you try and win/win, because both sides of a negotiation have histories and working relationships, and compromises, and promises, and whatever else. 

 

We”re missing a lot of information.

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, brelic said:

The tricky thing about evaluating a GM’s trades and signings is that we are simply not in the room. No one is. There’s so much that goes on benhind the scenes that act as important variables in the outcome.

 

A better measure of a GM’s move would be to know if given what he got/signed/traded, was that the best possible outcome given the circumstances? How much do you try and win, and how much do you try and win/win, because both sides of a negotiation have histories and working relationships, and compromises, and promises, and whatever else. 

 

We”re missing a lot of information.

 

 

 

 

The other thing to consider about a "no brainer" move like the Pronger trade is that 28 other GMs did not do it. 

[vis]

32 minutes ago, brelic said:

The tricky thing about evaluating a GM’s trades and signings is that we are simply not in the room. No one is. There’s so much that goes on benhind the scenes that act as important variables in the outcome.

 

A better measure of a GM’s move would be to know if given what he got/signed/traded, was that the best possible outcome given the circumstances? How much do you try and win, and how much do you try and win/win, because both sides of a negotiation have histories and working relationships, and compromises, and promises, and whatever else. 

 

We”re missing a lot of information.

That's true.  I said as much re: the dynamics of the Schenn trade.  I don't know what they were.  I don't know if Hextall foisted Schenn on the Kings or to what degree the Kings wanted Schenn (I do recall them being in the market for a bottom pairing d-man, though).  Hard to evaluate how that piece materialized.

 

All that said, in terms of evaluating trades and signings in general, for the most part there is a "market" that informs that evaluation.  It's not like it's impossible to form some conclusions based on the market.

[vis]

34 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

The other thing to consider about a "no brainer" move like the Pronger trade is that 28 other GMs did not do it. 

Not all other 28 teams are budget teams playing the arbitrage between hitting the cap floor and spending as few actual dollars to do it.  It made sense for Arizona to do it at that point.  It's kind of like the Horton/Clarkson deal that preceded it.  Also, pretty sure Arizona had a history of making trades where they took bigger cap hits than actual salary.  I don't know.  It just seems like an obvious move to me.

[ruxpin]

30 minutes ago, vis said:

Not all other 28 teams are budget teams playing the arbitrage between hitting the cap floor and spending as few actual dollars to do it.  It made sense for Arizona to do it at that point.  It's kind of like the Horton/Clarkson deal that preceded it.  Also, pretty sure Arizona had a history of making trades where they took bigger cap hits than actual salary.  I don't know.  It just seems like an obvious move to me.

I didn't mean it from Arizona's point of view.  I don't think it's either obvious or simple because 28 other GMs didn't get in front of Hextall with their own garbage contacts.  It actually wasn't all that common and was creative.

 

I know you mentioned you didn't like getting Gagner in the trade, but he actually was less of a cap hit than Grossman, who also went the other way.  Gagne actually produced a bit for nearly $6M in cap less than Grossman & Pronger, who provided nothing. 

 

I just think you're giving this far less credit than it deserves.  Obviously, Pronger's dead contact cap space was a lot bigger and more valuable than other options available to Arizona, but it was still fairly savvy. 

 

I really don't know whether it was part of the thought process, but we don't move Grossman, we probably don't see Ghost that year. Works for me. 

[vis]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I didn't mean it from Arizona's point of view.

I get that.  I didn't mean it from anyone but Hextall's or Arizona's point of view.

 

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I don't think it's either obvious or simple because 28 other GMs didn't get in front of Hextall with their own garbage contacts. It actually wasn't all that common and was creative.

How many of those other 28 teams want to take on dead cap space?  Probably very few, Arizona being one of them.  True, it wasn't common to that point but the circumstances (for the Flyers or Arizona) weren't common either.  It was a unique scenario at the time.

 

Again, never said that Hextall didn't deserve credit.  It was definitely a good, creative move.  But was the ability to make that trade something "phenomenal" that cannot be overstated?  I say let's tap the brakes a little on that.  

 

Btw, to tag onto what @brelic said: how do we know that Arizona didn't approach Hextall with the idea of acquiring Pronger's contract?  I really can't recall if the genesis of the trade had been reported.

 

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I know you mentioned you didn't like getting Gagner in the trade, but he actually was less of a cap hit than Grossman, who also went the other way.  Gagne actually produced a bit for nearly $6M in cap less than Grossman & Pronger, who provided nothing. 

I didn't hate getting Gagner.  He had some potential.  More than I can say for Grossmann, who was a dog by that point (Gagner had/has warts as well).  In my earlier post, I meant he and Grossmann were a wash from a contract perspective (and therefore not really an "unloading" of a bad contract) because that their cap hits essentially cancelled out and they were both UFAs after the next season.  Not much gained from a cap or contract perspective.  Inconsequential from a cap/salary management perspective.

 

For the record, Flyers retained $500k of Grossmann's salary/hit.  Accordingly, I think the Flyers ended up having a bigger hit than Arizona.  Whatever.

 

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I just think you're giving this far less credit than it deserves.

Fair enough.  At least you didn't call me crabby or pissy or insinuate that it's a stupid thought or that I am being dishonest or otherwise put words I didn't say in my mouth.

 

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I really don't know whether it was part of the thought process, but we don't move Grossman, we probably don't see Ghost that year. Works for me. 

Yay!

 

Hextall doesn't sign Medvedev and keeps Grossman we might have seen him anyway.

[radoran]

10 hours ago, King Knut said:

Regardless of most of the above, Hextall WILL HAVE CAP ROOM to spend on GOOD players.  Who should he target?  I've looked ahead and have seen very little that interests me in the UFA market.

 

Are you saying he has an asset that isn't very useful?

 

It is actually possible - and far from inconceivable - that in a capped league it pays to suck to get better.

 

And then there's Edmonton.

 

I don't  think the Flyers are devoid of talent. I think they lack the talent to be a top team in the Metropolitan. And your own estimation is that they might be better once Giroux and Voracek aren't "the core" (with at least voracek still under contract).

 

And in the end I don't blame Hextall,  I blame the organization for squandering 10 years wallowing in mediocrity (presuming they are 2-3 or 3-4 "years away").

 

Because in no small part by all accounts they were instrumental in costing us years of hockey to impose a salary cap and they've been terrible in managing it.

 

I don't hate Hextall. I appreciate many of the thinfs he has done. They are better off than when he took over.

 

And they're still desperately trying to be in the wild card race. And, yes, 2-3 "years away".

 

The unfortunate thing is weve been sold an idea they were 2-3 years away for the past five years.