Morgan Frost

[King Knut]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Are you saying he has an asset that isn't very useful?

 

It is actually possible - and far from inconceivable - that in a capped league it pays to suck to get better.

 

And then there's Edmonton.

 

I don't  think the Flyers are devoid of talent. I think they lack the talent to be a top team in the Metropolitan. And your own estimation is that they might be better once Giroux and Voracek aren't "the core" (with at least voracek still under contract).

 

And in the end I don't blame Hextall,  I blame the organization for squandering 10 years wallowing in mediocrity (presuming they are 2-3 or 3-4 "years away").

 

Because in no small part by all accounts they were instrumental in costing us years of hockey to impose a salary cap and they've been terrible in managing it.

 

I don't hate Hextall. I appreciate many of the thinfs he has done. They are better off than when he took over.

 

And they're still desperately trying to be in the wild card race. And, yes, 2-3 "years away".

 

The unfortunate thing is weve been sold an idea they were 2-3 years away for the past five years.

 

Not sure what you mean about a not useful asset. 

 

Its conceivable that that it pays to suck... but it’s also conceivable that a team can improve without sucking.  Sucking isn’t enough.  You have to get lucky.  You have to suck, then not lose the lottery in a year when there’s a McDavid or Matthews.... but as Edmonton and Toronto prove you have to suck for a LOT of years to have a team to put around him and then again you have to not be a moron and surround him with wasted cap space like Lucic and Maroon.  And then there’s Buffalo and Arizona.  Let us not forget the Flyers Sucked Wiesel than they ever have in 2007 and it didn’t work.  They lost Kane to the lottery.  Chicago didn’t suck as bad and won.  The penguins sucked and had ALOT of help from thhere league to get the picks that became their core.  

 

If sucking was 100% or even 75% I’d espouse it.  We tried it.  It didn’t work.  It’s less than 50% on its own in the cap era.  Lots of teams have sucked and still suck.  

 

If you believed the 2-3 years away line 5 years ago when the team was under water cap wise and looked to be so for at least 3 more years then I wonder if I could interest you in a Ben Franklin sized Bridge... going cheap.  

 

I do in in fact think this team is plenty talented enough to compete.  What they lack now is experience and game savvy. I don’t think it’s a talent issue at all save for Weise and Lehtera.  Even Mac and Manning (as much as i’d Rather see Morin and Sanheim) aren’t preventing this team from success right now.  

 

Mat the beginning of the season many of us said we’d have to wait til Xmas or New Year’s to know what kind of team we had.

 

the timing of the bye week makes me think I need to see what team comes back into the ice after a vacation, but honesty “talent” isn’t my issue.  Other teams that are less talented are above the Flyers in the East and in the Metro.  

 

They have a lot of growing still to do which makes sense with all the youth. But I have little doubt that if this team was coached by Vignault or  Hynes or even that jack ass Torrorella, they’d be a top 3 team in the metro.  Those guys just outclass Hak when it comes to winning hockey games.  

 

Very few teams skate 4 talented lines and 3 talented pairings.  This team actually could and for some reason it’s not.  They’d be inexperienced and need seasoning, and I don’t know that they’d win more or less, but they’d be more talented.   That’s what I don’t understand.  

[OccamsRazor]

Wow you guys sure got off track and have hi jacked Morgan's thread can we get back to the topic at hand? Thanks.

 

 

 

Morgan has been gifted a new winger who should help them challenge for the OHL title for sure this year and further.

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

Two Flyers prospects about to go head to head. Morgan Frost vs. Maxim Sushko!!! 

[King Knut]

15 hours ago, vis said:

That's utterly laughable.  For example, you still think the Pronger contract could have been traded before it was?

 

That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he could have been traded later or not at all and Grossman could have not been traded either.

Maybe you think it would have been a good idea to keep him so the team would have been less competitive and gotten a better draft pick.

 

The real shame of that deal is that Gagner had more hockey in him than the Flyers were interested in trying to eke out.  They never really gave him a chance and apparently never attempted to resign him.  I'd much rather have resigned him for the 1 million that Columbus did or even the 3 million that Vancouver did instead of going for Weise and or Gordon to loop back in that subject.  If Hextall and Hakstol would have given a damn and paid a little more attention, they might have a more viable 3rd line winger now.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not in love with the player or anything, but he's better than Friggin' Weise or Lehtera.  

 

15 hours ago, vis said:

I hope he gets better at that when the team could benefit from the UFA market.  That's the point.

 

Me too, but as I stated above, I don't think he was trying to get much from the UFA market before.  Here's the way I look at it:  Homer totaled the family car before he paid it off.  Hextall inherits the wreckage, but needs to get around while paying it off so he buys a beater car until he pays off the wrecked car.  Eventually the beater car turns out to be a lemon and can't go above 45mph.  Maybe Hextall could have bought a different beater car that would have lasted longer and gotten around a little better... but in the end it was always going to be a beater car that he was intending to replace in two years when he makes the last payment on the wreckage.

 

We can argue about the broken down beater cars he bought, but until someone suggests to me another car he should have bought with the budget he had, I'd sooner argue about why he's not driving around in the new cars he has in the garage instead... just because they don't have 50,000 miles on them yet.   They're likely better than the beater car.  

 

So far I'm the only one offering a better solution (actually trying to work with Gagner and keeping him instead of spending the same money on Weise and Gordon).  

 

15 hours ago, vis said:

Your reading comprehension absolutely sucks.  Never, ever have I called Hextall a crap GM.  I leveled a criticism of one aspect of his GM tenure and disagreed with your statement that his ability to unload waste players with bad contracts has been "utterly phenomenal and that can't be overstated."  Well, I disagree and think he gets too much credit.  That's not saying he's a crap GM.  It's saying he gets too much credit for something by some, e.g., you.

 

It's more that I'd just rather focus on the choices he's made that have actually mattered and that he will make that could matter.  Getting rid of those players mattered.  You choose to remove him from the historical record concerning them.  That's fine.  Let's talk about something else then.  

 

My usage of the term "Crap GM" was more at the prevailing sentiment I've been reading here and hearing elsewehre.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe in two or three years, but becasue of what he walked into, we simply don't have the sample size.  He has never had any cap room to spend until now.  Let's see where it goes from here and talk about that... but if we're talking about the past, yes.  I do in fact see more good than bad.  

 

15 hours ago, vis said:

Good question.  Are we allowed to discuss how Hextall handled Voracek's contract, or does that not matter now when evaluating his track record in this regard?

 

Yes please.  I'm very torn.  I hate the contract, but boy am I glad he's here right now.  I'll probably  be pissed he's still here in 3 years.

Very torn.  

 

People say he should have waited.  Maybe, but that's easy to say in hind sight when Jake had a crap year in his actual contract year.  He could have dealt him at the deadline for even more picks... but that would be even more players that we'd just be starting to see now.  

 

 

[radoran]

@King Knut

 

If there is cap space, but nothing to use it on, how useful is it? It's a rhetorical question. As we've discussed there aren't a lot of "cap problems" in the bad decisions like Weise. Just dead weight on the roster.

 

I'm not arguing that they should suck. Edmonton has sucked for years and they're still sucking. Arizona. 

 

And I completely agree that the team should be able to improve without sucking. I come from a time where a "down year" should be a 6-8 seed.

 

But we have two rounds of playoffs in five years, they are on the outside looking in at this point and as I read your own estimation, they're still years - years - away from seriously competing. And that's IF some prospects pan out.

 

I just think that sucks. And no amount of Voracek assists or Corsi/Fenwick "positives" changes that.

 

I understand "the process" and I do see "positives" on the horizon.

 

That doesn't change this being arguably the worst stretch of hockey in franchise history. It just doesn't.

 

I think I've been pretty consistent in acknowledging potential positives while insisting that until it is actually seen on the ice it's no better than "winning the trades" against a team that is sitting on two Cups while we have two rounds of playoffs in five years.

 

I own the orange and black glasses in my avatar. I just don't wear them while analyzing.

 

The fact is, I didn't believe the "we're going to be good" 2-3 years ago when they were saying 2-3 years and losing to the Cup finalist Rangers 4-3 was "a good sign" and there were all sorts of "reasons" they were going to be - Voracek scoring, good Corsi numbers, young talent coming up, etc.

 

It would be much better if they didn't continually blow smoke and instead went out and did it on the ice.

[ruxpin]

13 hours ago, vis said:

I get that.  I didn't mean it from anyone but Hextall's or Arizona's point of view.

 

How many of those other 28 teams want to take on dead cap space?  Probably very few, Arizona being one of them.  True, it wasn't common to that point but the circumstances (for the Flyers or Arizona) weren't common either.  It was a unique scenario at the time.

 

Again, never said that Hextall didn't deserve credit.  It was definitely a good, creative move.  But was the ability to make that trade something "phenomenal" that cannot be overstated?  I say let's tap the brakes a little on that.  

 

Btw, to tag onto what @brelic said: how do we know that Arizona didn't approach Hextall with the idea of acquiring Pronger's contract?  I really can't recall if the genesis of the trade had been reported.

 

I didn't hate getting Gagner.  He had some potential.  More than I can say for Grossmann, who was a dog by that point (Gagner had/has warts as well).  In my earlier post, I meant he and Grossmann were a wash from a contract perspective (and therefore not really an "unloading" of a bad contract) because that their cap hits essentially cancelled out and they were both UFAs after the next season.  Not much gained from a cap or contract perspective.  Inconsequential from a cap/salary management perspective.

 

For the record, Flyers retained $500k of Grossmann's salary/hit.  Accordingly, I think the Flyers ended up having a bigger hit than Arizona.  Whatever.

 

Fair enough.  At least you didn't call me crabby or pissy or insinuate that it's a stupid thought or that I am being dishonest or otherwise put words I didn't say in my mouth.

 

Yay!

 

Hextall doesn't sign Medvedev and keeps Grossman we might have seen him anyway.

 

All fair.  Probably misunderstood some of what you were saying.  Thanks for the calm explanation!   

 

Where's my cheese cake?  

[flyercanuck]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

All fair.  Probably misunderstood some of what you were saying.  Thanks for the calm explanation!   

 

Where's my cheese cake?  

 

 

[murraycraven]

58 minutes ago, radoran said:

@King Knut

 

If there is cap space, but nothing to use it on, how useful is it? It's a rhetorical question. As we've discussed there aren't a lot of "cap problems" in the bad decisions like Weise. Just dead weight on the roster.

 

I'm not arguing that they should suck. Edmonton has sucked for years and they're still sucking. Arizona. 

 

And I completely agree that the team should be able to improve without sucking. I come from a time where a "down year" should be a 6-8 seed.

 

But we have two rounds of playoffs in five years, they are on the outside looking in at this point and as I read your own estimation, they're still years - years - away from seriously competing. And that's IF some prospects pan out.

 

I just think that sucks. And no amount of Voracek assists or Corsi/Fenwick "positives" changes that.

 

I understand "the process" and I do see "positives" on the horizon.

 

That doesn't change this being arguably the worst stretch of hockey in franchise history. It just doesn't.

 

I think I've been pretty consistent in acknowledging potential positives while insisting that until it is actually seen on the ice it's no better than "winning the trades" against a team that is sitting on two Cups while we have two rounds of playoffs in five years.

 

I own the orange and black glasses in my avatar. I just don't wear them while analyzing.

 

The fact is, I didn't believe the "we're going to be good" 2-3 years ago when they were saying 2-3 years and losing to the Cup finalist Rangers 4-3 was "a good sign" and there were all sorts of "reasons" they were going to be - Voracek scoring, good Corsi numbers, young talent coming up, etc.

 

It would be much better if they didn't continually blow smoke and instead went out and did it on the ice.

 

I think you and I have been pretty consistent in terms of our line of thinking.   

 

I still don't see this team being a contender for ANOTHER 3-4 years which is what sometimes confuses me when I hear Hextall speak.   *If* the prospects pan out and are in the NHL in 3 years it does not automatically make this team a contender.   The kids will need a few years to adjust to the NHL and by that time where will Jake and G be in terms of production?  I don't have an answer to that question right now but hope for the best but my expectations say otherwise.   

 

Good ol' Dale W...   it is not an issue in terms of cap management but it still does hurt the team today.   He is merely dead weight that is taking up a roster spot and has literally brought nothing to the table to a team the organization likes to consistently say is a "playoff team."   Until he is consistently out of the lineup or stashed in the A it creates an issue for this current roster.   

 

We have been told over and over again the Flyers are competing for a playoff spot yet they are not icing the best team possible night in and night out.   You can't tell me they could not bring up a younger player with more skill to replace Dale or Lehtera?   To me it is a total and glaring issue with management.   If you want to compete on the ice while retooling/rebuilding it would make a heck of a lot more sense to add more skill.   

 

I can see the positives on the horizon but all of these shiny new prospects will also have to live up to expectations.  Some will and some won't...   None of us really know what this Team will be in another 2-3 years and at that point we are still going to have questions as to how long it takes them to get acclimated to the NHL.   

 

As much as Hak gets buried on here he is truly just rearranging chairs on the deck. What i find most interesting these days is how Hextall pulls this all together to build a true contender.   I am all for drafting and patience but at some point you have to pull the trigger and make decisions that improve the current team if you are truly expecting this roster to make the playoffs.   

[vis]

I don't event know how I did that.

[King Knut]

Here's my POV.  I actually responded to all of the above and just deleted it becuase it's all B.S. and this is perhaps the most important piece of my POV I want to share:

 

In the 2012 off season, I'd given up on this team doing ANYTHING competitive for at least 5 years.  Homer put all of his eggs into the Pronger Basket and Pronger's career was over.  Letting Jagr go (who was obviously the spark plug that got the other guys going the year before) was moronic. Bobrovsky.  Then there was all the crap with Parise and Suter and Weber.  Toss in JVR for Luke Schenn 

By 2013, I figured it was even farther off. Desperation hail marys like Streit and VLC just made it worse.  

 

There was always the chance for a miracle and after 2010, miracles didn't seem so absurd. At that point it's literally what it would have taken.  By the time they brought in Hextall as asst. gm and heir apparent, I knew this team was in for a long slow hard rebuild and at that point it was a rebuild that wouldn't really be able to even start for 5 years.  

 

If it's any consolation, they didn't make the playoffs at all from 1991-1994 and they only reason they did is because Clarke got prescient / lucky on Rico and JLC (another hail mary that panned out).  

 

I'm tired of hoping for miracles and hail marys.  I'm having a lot of fun watching this beast getting build from the ground up and now that it's almost together, it's really really hard to watch it fall short of where it could be.

 

I believe this team is better and easily in a playoff position with a different coach and Vecchione and Lindblom and Morin in the lineup.  

However, I believe it's likely that a more solid and consistent long term success is more likely on the current path because I see the logic despite my frustration.  

 

In 2012 I honestly thought this team was 10 years from where it is today.  So yeah,  I'm happy.  

 

2 hours ago, radoran said:

The fact is, I didn't believe the "we're going to be good" 2-3 years ago when they were saying 2-3 years and losing to the Cup finalist Rangers 4-3 was "a good sign" and there were all sorts of "reasons" they were going to be - Voracek scoring, good Corsi numbers, young talent coming up, etc.

 

It would be much better if they didn't continually blow smoke and instead went out and did it on the ice.

 

Me either.  I knew it would be a lot longer.  When they lost to the Rangers I thought it was inevitable as long as Berube was the coach.  When they signed Mason, I felt bad for him.  

 

2 hours ago, radoran said:

It would be much better if they didn't continually blow smoke and instead went out and did it on the ice.

 

Well this gets to my frustration.  I honestly look at the way the team is playing and the way Hex and Hak are handling the team and to me it looks like they are intentionally holding this team back... for some reason I can't ascertain. 

 

It's like race horses.  Trainers will hold them back sometimes and I frankly understand none of it.  This situation reminds me of that.  The GM and the coach look to be intentionally holding this team back right now.  And I don't get it.  

[vis]

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he could have been traded later or not at all and Grossman could have not been traded either.

Ok.  I was just responding to what you said initially about Pronger's contract not being traded before the time that it was.  I still don't understand your point, but let's move on...

 

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

Maybe you think it would have been a good idea to keep him so the team would have been less competitive and gotten a better draft pick.

No.  Not at all what I think.

 

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

So far I'm the only one offering a better solution (actually trying to work with Gagner and keeping him instead of spending the same money on Weise and Gordon). 

Saying someone else should have been signed instead of Weise or Gordon wasn't really my point, so I didn't offer up anyone.  But, if you're asking, and assuming Hextall was trying to bring in "warm bodies" (which signing Weise for four years and targeting him on day 1 of UFA seems to contradict), why not target Vanek, Matt Marten, Jason Chimera, Lee Stempniak or even Kris Versteeg.  None signed long term, with the exception of Marten.     

 

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

You choose to remove him from the historical record concerning them.

No, my point is that I think others had equally, if not more, to do with that trade coming to fruition than he did.  I don't think Hextall deserves to be lauded for trading VLC, particularly when the trade doesn't happen without VLC selflessly agreeing to retire.  

 

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

My usage of the term "Crap GM" was more at the prevailing sentiment I've been reading here and hearing elsewehre.

Ok.  Then direct it at those who have called him that.  I really don't think that's the prevailing sentiment here, but whatever.  Mixed reviews?  Certainly.  Crap?  Haven't seen much of that.

 

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

Yes please.  I'm very torn.  I hate the contract, but boy am I glad he's here right now.  I'll probably  be pissed he's still here in 3 years.

Very torn.  

 

People say he should have waited.  Maybe, but that's easy to say in hind sight when Jake had a crap year in his actual contract year.  He could have dealt him at the deadline for even more picks... but that would be even more players that we'd just be starting to see now.  

Given what he paid Voracek, I am concerned that he will overpay for Simmonds but I think Hextall will recognize that Simmonds is at a different point in his career than Voracek.  I think Hextall paid Voracek on an expectation that Voracek would continue performing at that level and his potential for at least a few more years.  At his age, that made sense.  Simmonds will be on the wrong side of 29 going in to next year.  I think Hextall will recognize he has to be a little more realistic about his future performance and the state of the team as well.

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

As much as Hak gets buried on here he is truly just rearranging chairs on the deck. What i find most interesting these days is how Hextall pulls this all together to build a true contender.   I am all for drafting and patience but at some point you have to pull the trigger and make decisions that improve the current team if you are truly expecting this roster to make the playoffs.   

 

What does that look like?  What does he give up?  What asset do you go for?  I pushed for him to step into Boston’s Pasternak situation this summer and got lambasted, but that’s the kind of guy who will be usefull.  Good now and young as hell.  You pay for that.  Boston got off easy as far as I’m concerned.  I’d have traded a lot and paid him for more time.  

 

My thing (and you don’t agree, but here I this anyway) is that this team is actually good now.  Most of us said we’d see what kind of team we had by Christmas.  Well going into the halfway point they’re on a huge run.  They’ve got a .733 or something winning percentage since they broke the streak.  

 

Secondary scoring is finally coming alive and Giroux and Coots are still putting up points simultaneously.  

 

We’re depressed about a 4 minute implosion against the pens and a flat appearance against the Sabers, but otherwise we see them playing very well and assume it’s a fluke instead of thugs starting to come around.  

 

Lets see see where this goes. I’m nervous about the break and this team’s fragile egg shell psyche. Really nervous.  But honestly with all the ups and downs of the season if I look at this team’s minute by minute performance, they really do look like a  wry talented team with some weak links (Weise, Lehtera primarily, Manning MaxDonald secondarily) and a ton of kids making the mistakes of inexperience at a pace that actually isn’t that bad.  

 

I look at this team and without knowing what happens from here on out, if i’m Objective, I see a team doing exactly what we were told.  Putting the pieces together.

 

Theyre getting there.  So what are the moves Hextall can make to push it further without giving up what they need to cross the finish line?  

[King Knut]

27 minutes ago, vis said:

 

Given what he paid Voracek, I am concerned that he will overpay for Simmonds but I think Hextall will recognize that Simmonds is at a different point in his career than Voracek.  I think Hextall paid Voracek on an expectation that Voracek would continue performing at that level and his potential for at least a few more years.  At his age, that made sense.  Simmonds will be on the wrong side of 29 going in to next year.  I think Hextall will recognize he has to be a little more realistic about his future performance and the state of the team as well.

 

My thing with Simmer is that someone’s going to give him the deal of his dreams and he damn well deserves it, so he should go get it.  

 

For or some reason he gave Hextall a sweetheart bridge deal.  Still don’t get it.  I want Simmer to fleece the hell out of some poor GM and go win a cup.  I also want Hextall to trade him for a genius prospect that gets us a few on either side of his.  

 

I think Jake was 25 or 26 when he signed the deal and after the season he’d just had, you kinda have to sign a 26 year old of his size putting up those numbers.  

 

But it it’s a hard one to swallow or it will be in three years or so. When he’s still here.  

[vis]

@King Knut

I wont begrudge Simmonds getting overpaid, as long as it's not with the Flyers.  With all the wear and tear, I could see it catching up to him at a younger age than most.  

 

It's a bummer because I think he's got about three good years in him, but the Flyers may not be a serious contender within that time.  What is the maximum term you'd give him, assuming a reasonable salary?  Is someone giving him an Oshie contract?

 

Wayne doesn't strike me as the kind of player that puts getting paid above all else.  That gives me some comfort.  

[flyercanuck]

Meanwhile....Frost with 1 g 2 a and the games 1st star in a 5-2 Hounds victory. He's got a 19 game point streak going.

[vis]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Meanwhile....Frost with 1 g 2 a and the games 1st star in a 5-2 Hounds victory. He's got a 19 game point streak going.

Wrong thread!!!

 

oh, sorry...carry on...

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Meanwhile....Frost with 1 g 2 a and the games 1st star in a 5-2 Hounds victory. He's got a 19 game point streak going.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Great draft pick so far......

 

 

 

[King Knut]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:43 PM, vis said:

 

Wayne doesn't strike me as the kind of player that puts getting paid above all else.  That gives me some comfort.  

 

Agreed on all.  I just think that I kinda want him to do so for himself.  Or at least for his 45 year old self.  Maybe 6.5 million for three years or 6 for 4? 

[vis]

On 1/14/2018 at 10:46 AM, King Knut said:

 

Agreed on all.  I just think that I kinda want him to do so for himself.  Or at least for his 45 year old self.  Maybe 6.5 million for three years or 6 for 4? 

I would have no problem with either, I think.  Might be a bit of overpayment, but the Flyers should enjoy a few contracts coming off the books and years of kids on entry level contracts or their first RFA deals so they should have a good deal of cap maneuverability.  Of the kids, maybe only Provorov will merit a big raise within that timeframe.  Of course, they will need to fill in the roster via FA, even if the prospects progress as expected.

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

It will do him some good to have some adversity to go through. Brings out the best in many.

[flyercanuck]

26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

It will do him some good to have some adversity to go through. Brings out the best in many.

 

They (full team and in regulation) had to lose sometime...and he had to go pointless eventually. He'll probably put up 3 or 4 points against Flint next game. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

They (full team and in regulation) had to lose sometime

 

 

Well all i know is that now makes the Schenn trade bad....

 

[flyercanuck]

25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Well all i know is that now makes the Schenn trade bad....

 

 

Ya...but just wait til we pick the next Bobby Clarke with that draft pick!

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Ya...but just wait til we pick the next Bobby Clarke with that draft pick!

 

 

Or Mark Howe even!!!!!!!!

 

Flyers win the day!!!!!!!