King Knut Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 They are so bad they make my stomach turn every time they take a shift. They’re just plain awful. Yet I feel like they take more shifts than Simmonds or Voracek at this point. There isn’t any way to fully express how terrible they are. I can’t take it anymore hey in God’s name are they friggin’ playing? i just can’t stomach it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I have been watching the Flyers since the Cup years, and I have to say, the team is at its most unwatchable over the last few years. Rangers vs Flyers always had great hitting, great fights, lots of action. Even when Beezer and Richter would stonewall us, we would bombard their net with quality shots and the games were awesome and if we lost, we set the tone for the next game by administering a good beating to someone. The last time this team had any fire or personality was when we had Hartnell and Lavy was the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 8 hours ago, King Knut said: They are so bad they make my stomach turn every time they take a shift. They’re just plain awful. Yet I feel like they take more shifts than Simmonds or Voracek at this point. There isn’t any way to fully express how terrible they are. I can’t take it anymore hey in God’s name are they friggin’ playing? i just can’t stomach it. Manning makes sense, as there really isn't anyone capable of taking his place. I agree he's playing too much though. Lehtera and Weise on the other hand, your guess is as good as mine. Apparently their value comes with being vets or something such garbage blargh blargh. Also, it's increasingly clear to me that Hakstol is in over his head, so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 The thing with Lehtera and Weise is who you replace them with. Read is already buried in the minors. And it's not often that both Weise and Lehtera play. So the only option to scratch them both is to insert yet another rookie, and I'm guessing they don't feel there's one ready to take up their spot. As bad as Weise and Lehtera have been, replacing them with two rookies would add up to about the same or worse at this point. Rookies are not just plug and play - they will make a lot of mistakes. It comes down to a few things - 1. Is Hextall willing to basically scratch $7M on a regular basis (Weise and Lehtera), especially since Lehtera has another year and Weise has another two left. 2. Does Hextall want to have a lineup with 7 rookies? (Weal, Patrick, Leier, Goulbourne, Hagg, Sanehim most of the time, plus another one).That's 1/3 of the lineup. The Devils have 3 rookies, and they are 2, 3, 4 in scoring on the team, and total 82 points. A 6th rounder, a 1st overall, and a 5th rounder. Our rookies are just not that good (37 points across 7 rookies), so adding more won't stop the poor play. This leads to a few more questions... 2a - Does Hextall want to push for the playoffs? If so, the lineup makes a bit more sense. 2b - Does Hextall want to to go with breaking in rookies now and likely forego the playoffs? In that case, he has to do something about Lehtera and Weise. And really, it might have less to do with playoffs and more to do with too many rookies making too many rookie mistakes at the same time. I dunno, just trying to understand on a rational basis what the strategy is - and don't tell me they don't know what they're doing or they don't care. That's hogwash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, elmatus said: Manning makes sense, as there really isn't anyone capable of taking his place. I agree he's playing too much though. Lehtera and Weise on the other hand, your guess is as good as mine. Apparently their value comes with being vets or something such garbage blargh blargh. Also, it's increasingly clear to me that Hakstol is in over his head, so there's that. Manning only makes sense if he’s actually safer and more responsible than Sanheim. He hasn’t been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan4ever Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 @brelic You are always so logical and put into words, eloquently I might add, exactly what I am thinking. Alternatives? We were due for a clunker but that was ugly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, fan4ever said: @brelic You are always so logical and put into words, eloquently I might add, exactly what I am thinking. Alternatives? We were due for a clunker but that was ugly! Thanks! I'm just trying to see it from a non-fan perspective lol. As a fan, I want more rookies. But looking at it objectively, I don't know that it necessarily makes any more sense. A rookie needs to contribute more than the players he's replacing, and I just don't see that as the case right now. Lindblom *might*, but the reality is that he would need the rest of the season to adjust. We see what Patrick does on this team, and it's not a whole lot. Sure, he's looking better lately, but he's still not contributing offensively, and at this point, our lineup needs offensive contributors. We have a terrible middle six. One thing they could do is replace Weise or Lehtera with Read. It might be a wash, or Read might be hungry after riding buses for half a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 add Leier to the list of players that are useless. The guy adds nothing. Reminds me of Wellwood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 @brelic I agree that the Flyers don't want that many rookies in the lineup at this point (and I'm not sure I blame them). I don't think you will see many nights when both Weise and Lehtera are scratched. But does Lehterable really deserve a spot ahead of any rookie? I really have no explanation for why he is in the lineup, unless Hakstol is benching other players. I don't really care that he's "safe" when he does absolutely nothing else. I get that Leier he has shown nothing to indicate he should be an NHL regular on any line, but I would still play him ahead of Lehtera. And if not Leier, why not give Goulbourne a longer look? Given how Hakstol deploys his fourth line (typically in o-zone starts), is he that much of a risk and is the "saftey" of Lehtera really worth it? I think Weise is well-liked in the locker room. He's a veteran. And he has a big contract. I get why he would be in the lineup, though I much prefer that he wasn't. (Still would play him ahead of Lehterable, though). I know Lehtera has that contract and it stings sitting that much $$ on the bench (though, it shouldn't). Maybe they think they can trade him for something. I don't know. I just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, vis said: @brelic I agree that the Flyers don't want that many rookies in the lineup at this point (and I'm not sure I blame them). I don't think you will see many nights when both Weise and Lehtera are scratched. But does Lehterable really deserve a spot ahead of any rookie? I really have no explanation for why he is in the lineup, unless Hakstol is benching other players. I don't really care that he's "safe" when he does absolutely nothing else. I get that Leier he has shown nothing to indicate he should be an NHL regular on any line, but I would still play him ahead of Lehtera. And if not Leier, why not give Goulbourne a longer look? Given how Hakstol deploys his fourth line (typically in o-zone starts), is he that much of a risk and is the "saftey" of Lehtera really worth it? I think Weise is well-liked in the locker room. He's a veteran. And he has a big contract. I get why he would be in the lineup, though I much prefer that he wasn't. (Still would play him ahead of Lehterable, though). I know Lehtera has that contract and it stings sitting that much $$ on the bench (though, it shouldn't). Maybe they think they can trade him for something. I don't know. I just don't get it. No, and I think it's worked out that way so far. Lehtera has played the fewest games among our regular forwards (26), which is how it should be. He can't be scratched the entire season, in part due to injuries, but also because as much as nobody likes him, he's on this team, and coaches rotate their bottom forwards in and out of the lineup, like they do bottom defensemen. Keep everyone fresh in case the injury bug hits. For me, Leier brings nothing, and neither does Lehtera. So, rookie or not, I don't really care which of the two plays. Weise usually replaces someone else because he plays on the 3rd line. I don't mind the idea of scratching Patrick for a few games, have him man up a bit, and toss Vecchione a bone on 4th, and Laughton on 3rd. Laughton has outplayed Patrick this year, and deserves a shot. Vecchione is a top scorer for the Phantoms, and is mid-20s, so maybe he could provide similar output to Laughton on the 4th. Just some random ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, King Knut said: Manning only makes sense if he’s actually safer and more responsible than Sanheim. He hasn’t been. I don't know about that. There is certainly a case for giving Sanheim more minutes so he can learn, but as limited as Manning is, Sanheim has been all kinds of awful this season when he has played. Bottom line: He shouldn't be playing at this level. Manning on the other hand is a serviceable 7th NHL dman. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I have much faith in Manning. I do think he's playing better than Sanheim has. That's not so much giving Manning credit as it is the bar being very low with how terrible Sanheim has been... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samifan Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Here’s how you cope. After an hour it won’t matter what the score is or whose in the lineup 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Keep giving Weise big minutes... he will break out of this funk eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, brelic said: He can't be scratched the entire season, in part due to injuries, but also because as much as nobody likes him, he's on this team, and coaches rotate their bottom forwards in and out of the lineup, like they do bottom defensemen. Keep everyone fresh in case the injury bug hits. I'm not sure I agree with rotating fourth liners for the purpose of keeping players fresh. Stay fresh by practicing hard and doing additional work. I guess since no "scratch" is marginally better than the others, it doesn't make a difference. Quote For me, Leier brings nothing, and neither does Lehtera. So, rookie or not, I don't really care which of the two plays. Weise usually replaces someone else because he plays on the 3rd line. At least Leier can skate, which is at least one redeeming quality. Can't even say that for Lehtera. Quote I don't mind the idea of scratching Patrick for a few games, have him man up a bit, and toss Vecchione a bone on 4th, and Laughton on 3rd. Laughton has outplayed Patrick this year, and deserves a shot. Vecchione is a top scorer for the Phantoms, and is mid-20s, so maybe he could provide similar output to Laughton on the 4th. Just some random ideas. Not sure where I stand on scratching Patrick. If he's doing what the staff has asked him to do, he's working hard off the ice and learning from his mistakes, not sure scratching him would send a good message even though he's struggled a bit. Then again, if despite all that he's losing confidence, maybe it would make sense for him to regroup and observe a few games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, vis said: I'm not sure I agree with rotating fourth liners for the purpose of keeping players fresh. Stay fresh by practicing hard and doing additional work. I guess since no "scratch" is marginally better than the others, it doesn't make a difference. At least Leier can skate, which is at least one redeeming quality. Can't even say that for Lehtera. I would agree if we had three fourth liners head and shoulders above the healthy scratches, but that's not the case, is it? Lehtera brings about the same as Leier, even if they play different styles. Leier probably gets the edge overall as a 4th liner, and he's played more games than Lehtera, which makes sense. And don't forget that Lehtera also played when we had the injury bug - Patrick, Weal, and I think someone else. So, taking away injuries, he's probably played 18-20 games over a healthy scratch, usually Leier or Weise, or Goulbourne now. At the end of the day, Lehtera is not the problem. His lack of production is equal to the lack of production from the players he's replacing, right? Which brings us to your next point... Quote Not sure where I stand on scratching Patrick. If he's doing what the staff has asked him to do, he's working hard off the ice and learning from his mistakes, not sure scratching him would send a good message even though he's struggled a bit. Then again, if despite all that he's losing confidence, maybe it would make sense for him to regroup and observe a few games. So.. it's not that Patrick is a 'problem', he's just not providing any production in the middle six. If we look at it as just breaking him in for his rookie year, and a learning experience, that's fine. 70 some games, 10-15 points. Maybe that's what Hak/Hex are thinking. But that doesn't help win hockey games right now. And our middle six is not producing. Patrick is terrible - from a right here, right now production and play-driving standpoint - and it's hard to argue that Laughton wouldn't do a better job as 3C *right now*. Some stats on his season so far: Patrick is ahead of only Leier and Lehtera in points for forwards. He has the lowest CF% on the team. He has the 2nd most offensive zone starts (55%) among forwards. Only Weise has more. He has the 3rd fewest shots on the team (36), ahead of Weise and Lehtera. It's not a knock on Patrick the prospect, it's a knock on the player currently playing 3C and providing no production. I'm sure he'll double his production next year, no question. And he has looked better with Weal and Simmonds over the past 2-3 games. He will be an excellent player in a few years, I'm sure - but there's no denying that he's had an objectively brutal rookie season thus far. Filppula has not been much better - the difference is that he's on pace for 36-40 points, which is about the best we could expect from him based on his stats the past few years. So, he's playing at a level that matches where he is in his career. The big dropoff is in CF%, which is at 45 (he's a career 52). All that to say that Lehtera getting 4th line minutes over Leier is not what is hurting the club - it's the lack of production from the middle six outside of Voracek, and the penalty kill. I figure the next 3-4 weeks will tell us if this is a playoff team or not, and will tell Hextall what to do at the deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Weise was not a good GM decision. Lehtera was salary dump in exchange for an a first round pick who is lighting it up in the juniors. Manning is playing better than I expected, which may not be much but he is a placeholder for a better future. Sami is right...you may need a drink or two. I am giving up a period or so to work out, because this is not always a fun squad to watch. The Hakstol-Hextall duo has two years to prove its worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 11:45 PM, King Knut said: They are so bad they make my stomach turn every time they take a shift. They’re just plain awful. Yet I feel like they take more shifts than Simmonds or Voracek at this point. There isn’t any way to fully express how terrible they are. I can’t take it anymore hey in God’s name are they friggin’ playing? i just can’t stomach it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 11 hours ago, Howie58 said: Weise was not a good GM decision. Lehtera was salary dump in exchange for an a first round pick who is lighting it up in the juniors. Manning is playing better than I expected, which may not be much but he is a placeholder for a better future. Sami is right...you may need a drink or two. I am giving up a period or so to work out, because this is not always a fun squad to watch. The Hakstol-Hextall duo has two years to prove its worth. It doesn't matter why they are here. It matters that they are playing and costing the team goals and points when they do not need to be. Manning... I honestly don't know whether to blame him or to blame Hakstol for how out of position Manning tends to be and how often the shots he takes tend to end up going the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Suggestion or accusation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: Suggestion Suggestion. I am just baffled not just once but twice now vs. Pens and Rags the Flyer have had to get down to 5-1 before Hak would make a switch to Neuvy in the 3rd.........which should both have been done early. And it's not all on just the goalie....even though in both Elliott played like do do in both you can't bench a team but you can bench the goalie to send a damn message.......yet he never does it till the game is almost to far gone. Just pisses me the f**k off!!! Do it to start the 2nd period not the goddamn 3rd. WTF else is there to lose except the damn game....which they lost either way. I am going to try and watch the game tonight..........but i will be prepared. Leafs are 4-3-3 in their last ten games so they are beatable. If the Flyers come out motivated and ready to play for a full 60. Yet right or wrong the need a goalie to help erase their brain farts and honestly Elliott hasn't been able to do that. Neuvy must be up to the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 41 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Suggestion. I am just baffled not just once but twice now vs. Pens and Rags the Flyer have had to get down to 5-1 before Hak would make a switch to Neuvy in the 3rd.........which should both have been done early. And it's not all on just the goalie....even though in both Elliott played like do do in both you can't bench a team but you can bench the goalie to send a damn message.......yet he never does it till the game is almost to far gone. Just pisses me the f**k off!!! Do it to start the 2nd period not the goddamn 3rd. WTF else is there to lose except the damn game....which they lost either way. I am going to try and watch the game tonight..........but i will be prepared. Leafs are 4-3-3 in their last ten games so they are beatable. If the Flyers come out motivated and ready to play for a full 60. Yet right or wrong the need a goalie to help erase their brain farts and honestly Elliott hasn't been able to do that. Neuvy must be up to the task. Suggestion Noted. Far more than the goalie, what I noticed is how the Rangers and the Penguins both beat the Flyers in exactly the same way. Either standing them up at the blue line and turning a breakaway the other direction or cherry picking right on the blue line when the Flyers pinched and had no support. It's a gaping hole in Hakstol's system. And the rangers in particular with the likes of Grabner (scores most of his goals by blocking a shot and speeding that into a breakaway) and Nash a fairly limited 100ft player at this point who doesn't dig too deep into his own end but is none the less dangerous). What's more, when you talk about this kind of game plan, you eliminate the shut down game of a Couturier or Laughton because your major threats don't get deep enough into their own zone and don't score as a result of any sustained pressure. It's a flaw and their coaches exploited it and ours didn't seem to anticipate their ability to do so. This wasn't even about the Flyers not playing the full 60. I think the only reason it wasn't 3-3 at the end of the first was Lundqvist. But the rangers loss wasn't the result of brain farts or lack luster play, the Rangers knew exactly what chinks in the Flyers armor to aim for and they nailed it precisely. When you play a team that apparently knows how to do that and has the skill to do so (Rangers, Penguins) you have to adjust and you've got to play a little more prevent defense to account for the speed and intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, King Knut said: Far more than the goalie, what I noticed is how the Rangers and the Penguins both beat the Flyers in exactly the same way. Since this is a Lehtera thread i posted this already but it needs to be here too: So yeah can a kid/prospect like Goulbourne really do worse?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Since this is a Lehtera thread i posted this already but it needs to be here too: So yeah can a kid/prospect like Goulbourne really do worse?? It's almost like they're doing it on purpose. The ONLY and I mean ONLY explanation I have is that they want Lindblom & Martel focusing on trying to learn how to be top 6ers and they want Vecchione and Varone focusing on learning how to play the Center position and don't want to sacrifice their development at those roles for the sake of winning now. To which I say, "SCREW THAT!" Filppula is now out of his league and can't keep up. Shift him to 3LW and make Vecchione your 3C. Move Raffl back to Laughton's line (which he made much more effective on the whole than it is now). IF they insist that they can't move Filppula back to LW (because when has shifting an aging and slowing down Center to LW ever worked for this team? hmmmmm...) then just bring up Lindblom and drop Raffl back to the Laughton line. Anything to get Lehtera off the ice. Unless there's some advantage to just missing the playoffs by a few points again this year... I just don't see it. I think tanking and getting #1 overall is going to be a stretch. I think making the playoffs and getting that experience and helping to continue cultivating a WINNING culture for these kids (for a damn change) is going to be much more valuable than getting 17 overall or some crap like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Found this on r/Flyers: So, if that's the case, that the plan is to "really go next year," why are they not playing more rookies then? I was thinking that they were actually trying for the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/17/2018 at 2:08 PM, brelic said: I would agree if we had three fourth liners head and shoulders above the healthy scratches, but that's not the case, is it? Lehtera brings about the same as Leier, even if they play different styles. Yes, I agree with that. As I said in my response, in this case no alternative is so much better than the other alternatives so it probably makes little difference if there is a rotation for the purpose of keeping players "ready to go." Though, as stated, I prefer Leier's speed in the lineup over Lehtera's "safety." What happened to Leier by the way? That line was a lot of fun in the beginning of the season. On 1/17/2018 at 2:08 PM, brelic said: But that doesn't help win hockey games right now. Absolutely and that's the rub with rebuilding while not rebuilding. If the primary concern is winning games and making the POs, then Patrick deserves a healthy scratch or two (or three, or four...). But if the primary concern is developing the player, then scratching him may not be such a great idea. Here's a question: why do they seem comfortable scratching Sanheim, also a rookie, but not Patrick? Just seems inconsistent to me, though I guess Sanheim has at least one year of professional experience. Is Brandon Manning that much of an upgrade, if at all, over Sanheim? All that said, there comes a point where you kind of have to say, "Y'know...take a night off, nolan." On 1/17/2018 at 2:08 PM, brelic said: All that to say that Lehtera getting 4th line minutes over Leier is not what is hurting the club - it's the lack of production from the middle six outside of Voracek, and the penalty kill. For sure, n the grand scheme of things, they have bigger issues, e.g., the lack of secondary scoring. But I still hate seeing Lehtera on the ice. On 1/17/2018 at 2:08 PM, brelic said: I figure the next 3-4 weeks will tell us if this is a playoff team or not, and will tell Hextall what to do at the deadline. Might know sooner if they keep playing like they did against the Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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