Building blocks

[yave1964]

The Wings attempt to retool on the fly has failed miserably mostly because of the least talented combination of players on the blueline in the game, but the forwards; that is a different matter. Over the past few years we have added:

 

DYLAN LARKIN A 1C to replace Pavel and to take the pressure off of Zetterberg and allow Z to age gracefully. Has developed into an excellent two way player.

 

ANTHONY MANTHA A top six winger and true power forward and power play specialist, a true goal scorers goal scorer.

 

ANDREAS ATHANASIOU A middle six winger who may yet move back to the middle, speed to burn finally getting the ice time and earning every minute.

 

TYLER BERTUZZI I watched a ton of him in GR and saw him as a bottom six agitator but he looks like a middle six winger at the very least with great vision and a scorers touch.

 

DOMINIC TURGEON 21 year old penalty killer and faceoff specialist. Helm and Glendening type.

 

MARTIN FRK Not a perfect player but a booming shot on the power play and he always hustles. Great third liner.

 

That is literally half of our forward lines rebuilt from within over the past two plus years and combined with Z, Tats, Nyke, Abby, Helm and Nielsen we now easily have the best depth among our forwards in years. Glendening when healthy and Svechnikov if he ever lives up to his billing make this a damn solid group.

 

  Just pointing out that it isn't all bad, the Wings are mired in mediocrity at best right now but at least there is something to hang our hat on. 

 

Now if we can only do something about the back end.......

 

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Wow, @yave1964 , I am not sure whether I should pursue legal action or not.... but this thing with how the Wings are built or being built.... I was JUST thinking about starting a thread of some sort on the Detroit forums (knowing there would be some fans on here with good input on the subject), about what pieces, if any, Detroit had that they can continue to build off of, and whether or not they should try and sell some of them off for a nice haul in teen aged prospects and picks and just bite the bullet (like they've been doing already, frankly) take their losses in the short term for a better future.

 

So...either you encroaching on my brain space, or we just think too much alike in terms of hockey.........  disturbing either way... 

 

Congrats on answering some of my questions before I even posted a thread on it though.

I'll chime in a bit later with some thoughts of my own...... if you don't get to THOSE first that is.... 

 

Just thought I'd post to say you have both intrigued me with this thread and spooked me a bit at the same time......  not an easy thing to do....... 

[yave1964]

Our forwards with AVERAGE defense is playoff worthy the problem is:

 

Mike Green is a perfect 2nd pair right handed shot, deficiencies in coverage but can run a first or ideally a second power play.

 

Kronwall, man this one pains me to say but he has been awful for two and a half years.

 

Ericsson has a career high of 15 points and is at best a third pair big body.

 

Jensen is an AHL player who stumbled into an NHL job because there was one open. He will quickly be forgotten.

 

Dekeyser has regressed to the point of being a massive liability and he has zero confidence.

 

Daley has been serviceable but a bit of a disappointment.

 

 In short @TropicalFruitGirl26 if I compare the Wings forwards to the Bolts, you have Kucherov and Stamkos but we have better depth 1-12. Our defense, only Green even makes your team paired with someone like Girardi who covers his lapses. Nobody else on our back end would get the time of day on a quality team. 

[SpikeDDS]

@yave1964 

 

Well, and this very thing calls into question the drafting of Rasmussen. I have ZERO against Rasmussen himself. His talent is undeniable. But why draft a forward when you desperately need a D-man?

 

When is the last time a top-drawer D-man was traded for forwards except possibly as a rental? It just doesn’t happen any more. The closest we’ve seen to that was probably Trouba, but look how that turned out? Nobody does that any more. They are just too darn valuable.

 

Why Holland didn’t see this fact enough is baffling. An argument that his talent might be dealable in a package for a top-level D-man just doesn’t hold water in today’s NHL.

 

The only two realistic paths forward are the draft and *eventual* FA. The problem with the latter is that teams are not letting guys like that walk away. They might even do a Subban-Webber, but they aren’t going to let top-drawer talent go unless they age out of their prime. Getting one by rental at the deadline ala Shattenkirk seems to be the only possibility, but ya gotta have a team that has enough to have a chance by grabbing him, because you’re gonna still pay a hefty price, so unless by grabbing him you’ve got some serious potential for winning a Cup that year, it’s not worth it.

 

No, the only thing that makes sense that I can see is obtaining one (or more) via the draft. Thus, the drafting of Rasmussen and the like is quite questionable at best, and just ignorant/stupid at worst.

[yave1964]

@SpikeDDS

 

I have no problem with Rasmussen in general but I could not agree with you more as to drafting defense. In the last few years I have been screaming to draft Brandon Carlo, Charlie McAvoy and Timothy Liljegren and not only did we add to an already well stocked stable of forwards instead but all three went within the division as further insult. Cholowski will turn pro next year and is a solid prospect but IMHO a 2nd pair player with offensive upside, not the quality player we need.

 

  What we need is the first pick in the draft and take Rasmus Dahlin who is shooting up the charts and looks to be the lock for the first pick in the draft, most scouts are saying he is an Erik Karlsson clone. The problem is he would only be one piece of the puzzle and we would have to tank to even have a chance at him, nobody who is currently on our roster is going to be on the blueline when/if the Wings are ever any good again.

[SpikeDDS]

@yave1964 

 

So, the question isn't whether we need to tank, but how much to tank. Just because you tank doesn't guarantee the top pick. Do you try to go bottom 3? We aren't bad enough to go below Buffalo anyway are we, even if we dump Green and some others?

 

The question is how much is too much?

 

And then, let's face it: we need some luck in the lottery draw.

 

I'd love Dahlin, but there is no guarantee of getting a chance to draft him.

 

DRB

[jammer2]

 The odds of drafting a top flight d man go WAY up if Howard is dealt.....just say'in. Howard keeps the Wings just good enough to not be in the top 10 selections. 

[yave1964]

34 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

 The odds of drafting a top flight d man go WAY up if Howard is dealt.....just say'in. Howard keeps the Wings just good enough to not be in the top 10 selections. 

Agreed, he is keeping us mediocre, lol. He would look good with the Isles or Chicago and if we could get a second round pick or so in return all would be good....

[jammer2]

5 hours ago, yave1964 said:

Agreed, he is keeping us mediocre, lol. He would look good with the Isles or Chicago and if we could get a second round pick or so in return all would be good....

 

 I think you may get more than a 2nd. Maybe a mid level prospect thrown in as well

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Well, finally getting around to giving a proper response to this topic.

Had to think about the Wings for a bit because cases can be made for 'riding out' the growing pains and continuing to try and be competitive on the fly, as well as selling off players, gaining draft picks and do a proper rebuild.

 

Looking over the Wings' roster, to me, the biggest thing GM Ken Holland (or his replacement if he is indeed wished well on future endeavors) has to figure out is timing.

Timing, as in, the Wings have young players with some upside who are just about ready to be full fledged everyday productive guys....but also have a bunch of vets, who would make perfect support for them....but are on the tail ends of their careers and likely will be done as productive NHL players by the time those young guys are fully ready.

 

That seems to be the main problem for Detroit.

Too big  a difference between the 'next wave' of players and the current established players.

 

That said, the list Yave started out with is as good a place as any for Detroit to start any championship build teams.

However, I would actually narrow that down further to just Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, and Andreas Athanasiou.

 

Bertuzzi, Turgeon, and Frk....sure, wouldn't be a terrible thing to keep them on as well, but if the right package of picks and prospects with better upside becomes available (or...gasp...DEFENSIVE for the long term), I'd be willing to deal any and all three of these guys.

 

I'd make Mantha, Larkin, and Athanasiou my three headed building block monster, then try to pry a young promising goalie from another organization, then get to work on matching Grand Rapids talent with the three young guys that are your untouchables, and have a draft plan in place.

 

This will mean more losing on the NHL ice sheet in the short term (they are doing a lot of that already with the current older and just about capped out team anyways), but in the long term they will be better for it.

 

I know it is probably sacrilegious to say in front of Detroit fans, but guys like Tatar, Adbelkader, Howard, and Green (if you can get the last three to waive their NTC's) should fetch a nice package of prospects and/or picks....and again, Bertuzzi, Turgeon, and Frk could be used to further bolster that as well.

 

Fortunately for Detroit, the Atlantic Division isn't rife with overpowered teams.

Sure, the Tampa Bay Lightning are set up for seemingly long term success, but outside of them, everyone else is trying to find their way to consistent winning as well.......INCLUDING current media darlings Boston and Toronto.

 

B's and Leafs may be further along than Detroit at the moment, but they are still pretty flawed in many areas and if you just look at Tampa Bay as the only team in the division being set for long term success right now, that leaves plenty of room for Detroit to be able to improve, while still being within reach of playoff spots (at least try to compete for them by playing young up n comers), while not feeling like the team has to suffer at the bottom of the standings with NO CHANCE in hell at sniffing playoffs on a yearly basis such as what teams like Buffalo and Arizona currently are doing.

[SpikeDDS]

@TropicalFruitGirl26

 

Good thinking.

 

I still think that THE way forward is drafting lottery D-men. So we are in agreement that it MUST get worse before it gets better.

 

I agree with you on the 3 untouchables. I question whether some of the vets you listed are dealable with some of their remaining terms. Tatar might be tradeable, especially if he starts getting hot now, but his remaining term will likely turn teams off, not wanting to commit for that long. Same with some of the others. Some are just frankly overpaid, like Helm. Again making deals difficult.

 

But your main idea is that a fire sale may be called for, and I don’t disagree. I would be OK with that. Yep, it means that clicking OK the next 2-3 seasons when I’m signing up for my NHL.TV annual subscription might leave a bad taste in my mouth, but it’s the price we gotta pay to get what we need.