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TO vs Philly


hobie

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I can remember that Matthews' stats improved when he played with Brown last year , not necessarily his offensive stats but corsi, shots, +/- and up until when Nylander and Brown were exchanged Matthews was nearly invisible tonite.

I think we've all assumed that Matthews needs talented linemates to thrive which makes sense but he's an exceptional puck mover and might be more comfortable with players who rely on him being that.

I think a better 1st line might be JVR/Matthews/Brown, JVR going to the net opens up the ice for Matthews and Brown helps on d while providing decent offense.

Both Marleau and Kadri are reasonably defensively responsible but neither are that great at moving the puck via carrying or passing, they could use Nylander, I think that could be a pretty good line.

Marner and Bozak can move the puck/score but neither are very good at puck retrieval or defending, Hymen might be just what they need. Hymen's inner scorer might be unleashed against lesser competition.

Leo isn't a top 9 forward any more, he's an agitator, a hustler so he's the prototypical 4th liner.

Marner's poor play resulted in a goal against, very little compete, he's a shell of what he was last year but Nylander get's demoted. I think Babs just expects more from Nylander and he gets exasperated by him when he doesn't see Nylander be what he can be. Marner's mistake was huge but JVR's firing the puck at the defender who was so close to him was as bad if not worse, stupid and irresponsible if you ask me.

We need not be seduced by the announcers, I remember when Luke Schenn was being sited as TO's future savior on defense, it's just hype. Dermott was noted as a potential top 4 d-man because he's already showing signs of patience but the situations that this was noted were ones he wasn't even pressured. Dermott may become a Leaf d-man but when he was pressured with the puck his decisions/actions weren't the best. Babs used him less and less as the game wore on for good reason. At this time I think Borgman might be a better option.

I see the Bozak line was -2 each tonite , this never surprises me.

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How bad has it been, you ask?

 

James Mirtle✔@mirtle

Leafs since Dec. 1

82-point pace
Goals for: 27th
Goals against: 16th
Shots for: 17th
Shots against: 26th
Shooting percentage: 27th
Save percentage: 7th
Time in lead: 19th
Time trailing: 18th
Time on PP: 23rd
Time on PK: 20th
ROWs: T-30th

8:32 PM - Jan 18, 2018


Bad

 

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I agree with you hobie, that Matthews needs a new line mate - but he is not on the team at this time. Nylander has been a spectacular failure IMHO. He just won't play the right way. I see him being traded in the near future.

I love Brown and Hyman's work ethics but they don't have enough finish.

Losing leads late into games is a sure sign of a poor team....... :lookssad:

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Andersen’s harsh criticism exactly what Maple Leafs needed to hear

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-new-look-cant-erase-old-problems/

 

Does Leafs go all in on Patches??? How about a Patches for JVR swap???

 

Why would Montreal trade a guy with a year left for a similar UFA?

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2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Why would Montreal trade a guy with a year left for a similar UFA?

 

 

Well more could/would be added to the trade.

 

It is just the start of a trade talk...Montreal is wanting to move him.

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3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

They should trade JVR for Lehtera.

 

That was quite a steal, Lehtera for Schenn, I think most teams are content for Philly to own that for awhile yet.

 

As a Leaf fan I found this trade a curious one as I still think the team that gets the best player wins the exchange. Lehtera + Frost for Schenn, Schenn wasn't overpaid in line with his productivity and he was cost controlled for 3 years plus he's only 25? This isn't normally the type of player a team would trade for a 27th choice in a suspect quality draft year plus Lehtera.  I find it hard to believe that Philly got so little and question why?

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Does expressing your opinion to the press on how your team mates are playing have any value? Doubtful.

Assuming that players have more game than you're seeing can also be presumptuous.

 

Any athlete will tell you that when things are going right it's effortless and when things go south, it stays south no matter what they do. They honestly think they're doing the same things and even putting in more effort, working harder and they probably are.  

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34 minutes ago, hobie said:

Lehtera for Schenn

 

 

And for Morgan Frost who is leading the OHL in points as well as another 1st in the upcoming draft.

 

Just so ya know it wasn't straight up.

 

So there's that.

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53 minutes ago, hobie said:

 

That was quite a steal, Lehtera for Schenn, I think most teams are content for Philly to own that for awhile yet.

 

As a Leaf fan I found this trade a curious one as I still think the team that gets the best player wins the exchange. Lehtera + Frost for Schenn, Schenn wasn't overpaid in line with his productivity and he was cost controlled for 3 years plus he's only 25? This isn't normally the type of player a team would trade for a 27th choice in a suspect quality draft year plus Lehtera.  I find it hard to believe that Philly got so little and question why?

 

There's another 1st rounder coming to Philly in this years draft.

 

 Frost is the leading scorer in the OHL this year...as well as being probably the best skater. And one of the smartest players. Hextall wasn't trading for a pick (or two)...he wanted Frost. When he was available, he pulled the trigger.

 

 Maybe it didn't look like such a great move for half a season...but Schenn has come back to earth, and Frost is looking like the steal of the draft. Not to mention Couturier has more than made up for Schenns production on the pp for Philly.

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4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

And for Morgan Frost who is leading the OHL in points as well as another 1st in the upcoming draft.

 

Just so ya know it wasn't straight up.

 

So there's that.

 

I did mention the draft choice!

 

Ask a Leaf fan and he/she would tell you TO got the steal of the draft in Liljegren, a Van fan in Petterssen, St.L. in Kostin so there's that.

 

Bird in hand....

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A lot of people are thinking that Kadri is the actual target of Andersen's tirade so what if Kadri had come out sometimes in Oct. and complained about Andersen's record?

 

Glass houses... 

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6 hours ago, hobie said:

A lot of people are thinking that Kadri is the actual target of Andersen's tirade so what if Kadri had come out sometimes in Oct. and complained about Andersen's record?

 

Glass houses... 

 

I thought Marner and Nylander were both terrible in that game (along with JVR/Bozak). I don't watch the Leafs so I'm only judging them by that one. Mathews still doesn't look like the same player, but he'll come around.

 

 As for the 'steal"...there are Leaf fans who profess every single player in every single draft is a steal. Go on HFboards...they try to turn almost every single thread into a Leaf thread.  Petterson went 5th overall...he's supposed to be really good. Kostin definitely could also be a great pick. That doesn't take away from what Frost is doing as the 27th pick.

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11 hours ago, hobie said:

I did mention the draft choice!

 

Where???

 

"That was quite a steal, Lehtera for Schenn, I think most teams are content for Philly to own that for awhile yet.

 

As a Leaf fan I found this trade a curious one as I still think the team that gets the best player wins the exchange. Lehtera + Frost for Schenn, Schenn wasn't overpaid in line with his productivity and he was cost controlled for 3 years plus he's only 25? This isn't normally the type of player a team would trade for a 27th choice in a suspect quality draft year plus Lehtera.  I find it hard to believe that Philly got so little and question why?"

 

You mention the 27th that was Frost.

 

But i see nothing about the first round pick in 2018.

 

And i'm not even drunk.

 

So where dear sir did you mention it?

 

And Schenn wasn't traded because he was overpaid. He was traded because he just didn't fit.

 

And the Schenn we know has returned it seems.

 

He has two goals since December 12th and is -9.

 

So as i said in the other thread i don't miss him.

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Quote

Center Brayden Schenn was traded to the St. Louis Blues by the Philadelphia Flyers on Friday for forward Jori Lehtera, the No. 27 pick in the 2017 NHL Draft and a conditional pick in the 2018 draft.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/flyers-deal-brayden-schenn-to-blues-for-jori-lehtera-picks/c-290097928

 

I never known a conditional draft choice to end up being a 1st rounder? Since I'm not an expert on Philly I go with what I see on the net.

 

It really seems to me there's a lot of Kessel love for Schenn so no matter what he did or does someone will find a reason to diminish his results.

 

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I thought Marner and Nylander were both terrible in that game (along with JVR/Bozak). I don't watch the Leafs so I'm only judging them by that one. Mathews still doesn't look like the same player, but he'll come around.

 

 As for the 'steal"...there are Leaf fans who profess every single player in every single draft is a steal. Go on HFboards...they try to turn almost every single thread into a Leaf thread.  Petterson went 5th overall...he's supposed to be really good. Kostin definitely could also be a great pick. That doesn't take away from what Frost is doing as the 27th pick.

 

Didn't Philly go thru a 10 game slump earlier in the year, how did their players look? 

 

It seems there are Flyer fans on this very forum that are fawning over their draft choices?

 

Nylander and Marner are terrible right now but more so Marner, Babs seems to like to move Nylander around in the lineup but not so much Marner. Bozak and JVR were a part of TO's losing culture and both will be RFAs at the end of the year, I hope/expect they will not be back.

 

There's an addiction going around the net that seems to be untreatable and many  draft choice junkies seem more content to go on about draft choices than the teams they supposedly follow.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, hobie said:

 

I never known a conditional draft choice to end up being a 1st rounder? Since I'm not an expert on Philly I go with what I see on the net.

 

 The condition is that it's top 10 protected...if the Blues ended up picking there the 1st rounder will be for the next draft.

 

1 minute ago, hobie said:

 

It really seems to me there's a lot of Kessel love for Schenn so no matter what he did or does someone will find a reason to diminish his results.

 

 I never disliked Schenn and wasn't asking for him to be traded. But I also had no problem with the deal...Philly wasn't in a win-now scenario and Schenn just didn't fit Hextalls blueprint. Hopefully the picks pan out in the same timeframe as our D and goalie prospects. 

1 minute ago, hobie said:

 

 

Didn't Philly go thru a 10 game slump earlier in the year, how did their players look? 

 

 Terrible. 

 

1 minute ago, hobie said:

 

It seems there are Flyer fans on this very forum that are fawning over their draft choices?

 

 Sure. But Frost was barely old enough to be selected in the last draft and has upped his game by quite a lot since being picked. 

 

1 minute ago, hobie said:

 

Nylander and Marner are terrible right now but more so Marner, Babs seems to like to move Nylander around in the lineup but not so much Marner. Bozak and JVR were a part of TO's losing culture and both will be RFAs at the end of the year, I hope/expect they will not be back.

 

There's an addiction going around the net that seems to be untreatable and many  draft choice junkies seem more content to go on about draft choices than the teams they supposedly follow.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, i mentioned the guys I saw in the one game I referred to as being bad. I'm not calling Marner and Nylander terrible players...they were just bad in that game. I've never been much of a JVR fan. Bozak is Bozak. 

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Usually a reporter will mention lottery protected conditional draft choice, another hack.

 

Marner and Nylander can be bad and they are right now.

 

I say forget draft choices until they make the team, they're just names usually.

 

TO in one of the best drafts in years traded out of the 1st round eventually ending up with a 2 2nds and a 3rd. We were told that after a certain number, even in the 1st, chances of hitting it big was unlikely so to increase a team's chances of doing well they should use late 1sts to trade down and hope for success via volume. Philly drafted Konecky with that choice, one of TO's choices was Dermott.   

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5 hours ago, hobie said:

Usually a reporter will mention lottery protected conditional draft choice, another hack.

 

 At the end of the article..."The Blues have the option to defer the 2018 pick to 2019 if it is in the top 10"

 

5 hours ago, hobie said:

 

Marner and Nylander can be bad and they are right now.

 

I say forget draft choices until they make the team, they're just names usually.

 

 Well when the trade revolves around draft choices, it's kind of hard to just forget about them. Hextall wanted Frost, and a 1st in the 18 draft. He wasn't trading Brayden Schenn for Lehtera. That part of the deal was to make Schenns contract fit for the Blues. 

 

5 hours ago, hobie said:

 

TO in one of the best drafts in years traded out of the 1st round eventually ending up with a 2 2nds and a 3rd. We were told that after a certain number, even in the 1st, chances of hitting it big was unlikely so to increase a team's chances of doing well they should use late 1sts to trade down and hope for success via volume. Philly drafted Konecky with that choice, one of TO's choices was Dermott.   

 

And I'm pretty happy with Konecny. And here you are talking draft choices...:D

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10 hours ago, hobie said:

We were told that after a certain number, even in the 1st, chances of hitting it big was unlikely so to increase a team's chances of doing well they should use late 1sts to trade down and hope for success via volume.

 

 

This is true. Hard to hit later.

 

You have to do your homework. Stick to your draft board.

 

Don't worry about the talking heads and what they say.

 

You have to draft guys who fit your system/vision for the future.

 

And in the Flyers case you have to have the picks first before you can hit on them.

 

In the past they would trade them away for old past their prime guys.

 

The philosophy has changed since Hextall took over. SUre he has had a questionable move or two but this isn't an exact science and there will be mistakes along the way.

 

They are building through the draft. I'm cool trying it this way they tried buying for 20+ years.

 

Right now the core is being laid with a vet mix.

 

Guys on the team that were drafted:

 

Forwards

 

Giroux

Coots

Laughton

Patrick

Leier

Goulbourne

Konecny

 

Defense

 

Provorov

Ghost 

Sanheim

Hagg

 

To go with some undrafted free agent signings: Raffl and Manning

 

 

I think that is a solid foundation that is still in the process.

 

So it takes the right mix to get there.

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TO drafted a player that finished 1st and 2nd in the WHL scoring races the previous 2 years, he's now in his first pro year as a 21 year old rookie, he has 6 points in 30 games and has become a frequent healthy scratch. Yes, Adam Brooks  had a lot of Leaf forumers excited, just a name.

 

I'm not minimizing the importance of the draft I'm simply cautioning that assuming that certain draft choices because they've done well are a sure thing which they aren't until actually in the NHL.

 

TO is building thru the draft but also via FA and trading, Borgman and Zaitsev from FA, Hyman & Andersen via trade. 

 

Since TO can be truly acknowledged as rebuilding, 2015, TO has 2 draft choices make the team, Marner and Matthews, and 1 choice auditioning, Dermott. However TO has traded a 1st in this time for Andersen, the currency of a draft choice is often worth more than the draft choice itself.

 

If you want to build thru the draft, tank or win the lottery like Philly did with Nolan. 

 

 

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Brooks wasn't drafted his first year of eligibility. He wasn't drafted his second year of eligibility despite putting up good #s. His skating is mediocre.

 

Frost went in the 1st round his first time around...even though he was one of the youngest players in his draft class.. Also one of if not THE fastest skater in the draft.  Frost, at 18, is also already bigger than Brooks at 21. That's not as big a factor these days, but its still a factor.

 

I'm pretty confident if Brooks was offered to Hextall for Frost, Hextall would probably just laugh. 

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19 hours ago, hobie said:

TO drafted a player that finished 1st and 2nd in the WHL scoring races the previous 2 years, he's now in his first pro year as a 21 year old rookie, he has 6 points in 30 games and has become a frequent healthy scratch. Yes, Adam Brooks  had a lot of Leaf forumers excited, just a name.

 

 

 

It why you have to do your homework and trust your scouts.

 

What you did in juniors is just part of the evaluation process along with the combine then getting to know the player and then deducing weather he fits the type of player you want and then grading a player, coming up with a draft board and going by that.

 

Konecny and Frost are two great exampled of guys who other team might not have graded highly but Hextall thought a lot of them and went out and took them.

 

Sometimes you hit sometimes you miss.

 

I personally think he hit on both.

 

But still to soon to tell really.

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