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Trade Deadline


hobie

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12 hours ago, hobie said:

The same thoughts were held about Coffey with Edmonton during the '80s,  supposedly he needed to learn to defend before Edmonton would become a viable Cup contender.

 

Gardiner and Rielly aren't Coffey, never will be but I think if Babs gave them more freedom TO might benefit. Babs only sees teams being successful via defense, Edmonton won because of their offense.

 

I'm just looking at it purely from the standpoint of enhancing the team's "TOP 6".  The top 6 being the team's best LW, C, RW, LD, RD, and G. To win a championship, your best six players have to be better than the competition.

 

Acquiring Karlsson would add one of the game's premier defencemen to the Leafs, maybe the best the Leafs have ever had. JVR is not in Babcock's plans from the looks of things. We need scoring on the back-end, and a guy that is a legit #1.  Rielly may/may not be that guy, but Karlsson definitely is, and we need Rielly too. 

 

I'd love to see the Leafs add him without giving up Rielly or Gardiner. Give up a rookie and a draft pick to Ottawa if they're rebuilding. This would move the Leafs from fringe playoff team to serious Stanley Cup contender.  :)

  

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15 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I'm pretty sure if Karlsson was up for trade, every team in the league would top a JVR for #65.

 

I think Karlsson is definitely up for trade. He's not going to stay in Ottawa for a 5-year rebuild. He's at a point in his career where he wants to win now. The Leafs have draft picks and young rookies they could dangle in a trade for #65. 

 

Plus his value is lower because he's having a bad year and probably wants a change of scenery. Ottawa won't get top dollar for him any more. Plus, if he demands a trade (which will probably happen soon) the Senators won't be getting any favourable trade options. :)

 

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7 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I think Karlsson is definitely up for trade. He's not going to stay in Ottawa for a 5-year rebuild. He's at a point in his career where he wants to win now. The Leafs have draft picks and young rookies they could dangle in a trade for #65. 

 

Plus his value is lower because he's having a bad year and probably wants a change of scenery. Ottawa won't get top dollar for him any more. Plus, if he demands a trade (which will probably happen soon) the Senators won't be getting any favourable trade options. :)

 

 

I'm not saying he isn't up for trade. I'm not saying the Leafs couldn't make that trade. I'm saying he isn't being traded for JVR...unless you're including Marner and Nylander and a 1st with him.

 

A rookie and a draft pick? What rookie are the Leafs going to offer Ottawa for the best puck moving defenceman the NHL has seen since Paul Coffey? In his prime. Who would be the Leafs top scoring defenceman even though he's played on a tire fire all season long, and that if he played for a good team you could probably add 15 points that would make him your leading scorer. Travis Dermott and his 7 points? And a mid to late 1st? Like the previous JVR offer, 30 NHL teams would top that in a heartbeat.

 

Ottawa isn't trading him to try and help the Leafs. They're trading him to try help Ottawa.

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@WordsOfWisdom

@flyercanuck

 

Good post, flyercanuck...although to be fair, I think Words was being a bit cheeky anyways! :ahappy:

 

He may have a point though that Karlsson may not net Ottawa his FULL value, but it definitely will take more than JVR, and unless the Leafs are gonna part with a young blue chip type player, a deal like that isn't getting done.

 

There are 30 teams that would love to have Karlsson (hell even the Seattle Kraken who just applied want him! :bigteeth: ), but not everyone will have the payroll or the picks/prospects necessary to pry him away from the Sens.

 

Even if Ottawa doesn't get absolute complete value for Karlsson, his asking price will and should be, high....not to mention the $10M+ they likely will have to fork over when his contract comes due...

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11 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I'm not saying he isn't up for trade. I'm not saying the Leafs couldn't make that trade. I'm saying he isn't being traded for JVR...unless you're including Marner and Nylander and a 1st with him.

 

JVR wouldn't fit into the Senators long term plans. I imagine they would want draft picks from Toronto and probably a young roster player with upside. 

 

A rookie and a draft pick? What rookie are the Leafs going to offer Ottawa for the best puck moving defenceman the NHL has seen since Paul Coffey? In his prime. Who would be the Leafs top scoring defenceman even though he's played on a tire fire all season long, and that if he played for a good team you could probably add 15 points that would make him your leading scorer. Travis Dermott and his 7 points? And a mid to late 1st? Like the previous JVR offer, 30 NHL teams would top that in a heartbeat.

5 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

 

I know Karlsson is a great player, but he's still just one player. I think we have to be careful about getting too crazy on his value. Implying that a trade of JVR + Marner + Nylander + a 1st for Karlsson would be a fair trade is not fair to Toronto. I wouldn't trade JVR + Marner + Nylander + a 1st for Crosby in his prime.  It's not worth it. Crosby alone is not better than those four players, not by a long shot. Neither is Karlsson. 

 

I think a realistic (fair) deal for Karlsson would be:

 

Karlsson for Rielly and a 1st round draft pick  (Ottawa hedges their bets that a young Rielly still has another level to his game and you get an asset in a draft pick that will likely become an NHL player on the roster.)

 

Karlsson for Kadri and Gardiner. (Ottawa gets a quality centerman who is having a down year, and they get an established veteran defenceman with some offensive flair and a lot of years left + some minor upside to his game.)

 

No way no how is Toronto moving someone the stature of Marner with anyone else for Karlsson. If we're talking realistic here, then it would be Karlsson for Marner and a 1st round draft pick. Done. No other roster players involved in the deal. Marner is a superstar in the making.

 

:)

 

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On 2/15/2018 at 12:53 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

If JVR had Simmonds drive he'd likely be a perennial 40 goal scorer. He's got great NHL size and skill, and plays like a marshmallow. 

 

And yes, if I'm trading Karlsson, it's more likely for prospects/picks/youth. Not JVR.

 

I seen many Leaf teams that didn't have someone who would go to the front of the opposition's net, JVR does consistently, this does show drive just a different kind. Nobody scores 25 to 30 goals without some sort of internal fortitude.

 

I assumed that JVR and Simmonds were just a piece from each team and each team would need to sweeten these deals with picks and prospects, I thought all would understand that.

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I assumed that a player like JVR would be someone that Ottawa would then trade for more assets, Ottawa is looking to go cheap.

I would put Karlsson on Lindros' degree of value, Philly traded enough to Quebec/Colorado to make that team into a Cup winner.

 

Philly traded for a young Lindros because their team wasn't ready to compete, TO would/should trade for Karlsson because the time to win might be now. I don't think Karlsson should be viewed as a late 20 year old because his skating and talent is elite so I doubt he wouldn't be far above average even into his mid 30s.

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TSN is speculating that JVR might be traded, his icetime the last 3 games 12:50, 11:44 and 10:10. He's approaching 3rd line minutes which seems the opposite of what a team would do if it was trying to maximize his trade value.

 

I can remember RC using JVR to kill penalties, Babs will only use him late in games if TO is trying to catch up but never in any defensive situation.

 

I'd be shocked if TO tried to resign him and I'd be even more shocked if he would resign with TO.

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17 minutes ago, hobie said:

TSN is speculating that JVR might be traded, his icetime the last 3 games 12:50, 11:44 and 10:10. He's approaching 3rd line minutes which seems the opposite of what a team would do if it was trying to maximize his trade value.

 

I can remember RC using JVR to kill penalties, Babs will only use him late in games if TO is trying to catch up but never in any defensive situation.

 

I'd be shocked if TO tried to resign him and I'd be even more shocked if he would resign with TO.

 

I've never had any issue with JVR. I like the goals and he's a quiet star that goes about his business and contributes. Obviously he's not a complete enough player for Babcock because he's not getting the ice time he otherwise deserves for someone of his elite scoring level. 

 

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7 hours ago, hobie said:

I would put Karlsson on Lindros' degree of value, Philly traded enough to Quebec/Colorado to make that team into a Cup winner.

 

Philly lost that trade. Badly.

 

I'm trying to think of the last big name defenceman that got traded and I'm drawing blanks.

 

Wasn't Chris Pronger traded for Brendan Shanahan straight up once upon a time?   

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I look at Ottawa's situation as the following:

  • They know they're going to lose Karlsson if they rebuild. (He will demand a trade, won't renew his contract, whatever.)
  • They know the market is going to be somewhat limited because teams only have so much cap space for a player like this. Many would LIKE to have him, but only a few will be able to FIT him into their payroll and be under the cap.
  • They know they're only going to trade with a team that can give them high level prospects or high level young roster players in exchange.
  • They'll be trading him to a playoff team.  

 

Toronto is literally the perfect fit for Karlsson.  The Leafs should have the cap space for him. They're looking to win now. They need a #1 defenceman that is at the top level in the NHL today.   :)

 

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Pitts won the Cup last year without a #1 and probably even without a #2.

 

Las Vegas is the 2nd best team in the NHL this year, an expansion team, so anything is possible.

 

Nashville with one of the premium defenses in hockey barely scraped into the playoffs last year, finished 8th in the west then went on to play Pitts for the Cup.

 

I don't think what happens in the playoffs is easily understandable or explainable, Washington dominates all year, upgrades the team before the playoffs and doesn't even make the finals.

 

I think attempting to upgrade your team at the TDL is a fool's game, teams should go to the dance with those that got them there. 

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12 hours ago, hobie said:

 

I seen many Leaf teams that didn't have someone who would go to the front of the opposition's net, JVR does consistently, this does show drive just a different kind. Nobody scores 25 to 30 goals without some sort of internal fortitude.

 

I've seen plenty of games featuring JVR, going back to his UNH days where I'd stream them cause he was our 2nd overall pick. And almost every one of them you could see a guy with God-given size and skill out there for a skate, putting up points not through any work ethic, just out of pure talent. The guy could be a whole hell of a lot more if he set his mind on it.

 

12 hours ago, hobie said:

 

I assumed that JVR and Simmonds were just a piece from each team and each team would need to sweeten these deals with picks and prospects, I thought all would understand that.

 

 Fair enough.

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4 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Philly lost that trade. Badly.

 

 

 Injuries derailed Lindros' career. Sure Philly paid huge for him...he was also THE best combination of size, strength and talent the league had ever seen. And the only junior to ever play on Canadas mens team. He also got Philly to a cup despite the fact they had to trade half their team away to get him. Something the Leafs haven't managed since there was 6 teams. No matter how many trades they made. And Colorado wasn't winning a cup until Montreal handed them Patrick Roy.

 

Lindros brought an excitement to the Flyers that few teams ever get to experience. He was amazing to watch in his prime.

 

4 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I'm trying to think of the last big name defenceman that got traded and I'm drawing blanks.

 

Wasn't Chris Pronger traded for Brendan Shanahan straight up once upon a time?   

 

Pronger was traded to St Louis, then to Edmonton, then to Anaheim, then to Philly, then to the Yotes (purely for cap floor reasons). But ya, it's tough prying a #1 defenceman away from any team.

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4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 Injuries derailed Lindros' career. Sure Philly paid huge for him...he was also THE best combination of size, strength and talent the league had ever seen. And the only junior to ever play on Canadas mens team. He also got Philly to a cup despite the fact they had to trade half their team away to get him. Something the Leafs haven't managed since there was 6 teams. No matter how many trades they made. And Colorado wasn't winning a cup until Montreal handed them Patrick Roy.

 

Lindros brought an excitement to the Flyers that few teams ever get to experience. He was amazing to watch in his prime.

 

No doubt, but they traded something like five 1st round draft picks to get him, and those picks turned into Peter Forsberg, Sandis Ozolinsh (I think), Kamensky, Keane, etc.. I forget who it was now.  The Avs practically acquired five core players from that trade that they won a Cup with. Forsberg alone would have been an even trade for Lindros. When you add in the rest, it was overwhelming. :)

 

The Leafs never take risks... which is why they never get over the hump. Every time the Leafs have been close to a Stanley Cup, they maintain their existing roster rather than making any key acquisitions to improve their weaknesses. If you're the third place team in your division going into the playoffs (with an 82 game sample size), your odds of suddenly becoming a first place team overall (winning the Cup) are slim to none.

 

Leafs have always been content to do enough to make the playoffs, but never to enter the playoffs as the favourite. That's why they never win.  The Habs are a perfect example of this level of "playoff coasting". In 25+ years of making the playoffs since 1993, how many Cups has Montreal won?  Zero. 

 

Being a playoff team in the NHL only means you're an above .500 team. It doesn't mean you're icing a great team by any means. The Leafs have a good but not great team with the potential to be great with the right moves at the trade deadline.  :)

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

No doubt, but they traded something like five 1st round draft picks to get him, and those picks turned into Peter Forsberg, Sandis Ozolinsh (I think), Kamensky, Keane, etc.. I forget who it was now.  The Avs practically acquired five core players from that trade that they won a Cup with. Forsberg alone would have been an even trade for Lindros. When you add in the rest, it was overwhelming. :)

 

Well, they actually traded 2-1st round picks (who turned into Jocelyn Thibault and Nolan Baumgartner...whoop dee doo) along with Forsberg, Hextall, Duchesne, Ricci and Simon. Forsberg and maybe Ricci ended up core players. I don't think anyone knew Forsberg was going to be that good...considering Fat Balloon/Scott Neidermeyer (in a horrible trade by Toronto mind you)/Scott Lachance and Aaron ward all were selected ahead of him. I was shocked Philly didn't have to give up Recchi AND Brindamour.

 

16 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

The Leafs never take risks... which is why they never get over the hump. Every time the Leafs have been close to a Stanley Cup, they maintain their existing roster rather than making any key acquisitions to improve their weaknesses. If you're the third place team in your division going into the playoffs (with an 82 game sample size), your odds of suddenly becoming a first place team overall (winning the Cup) are slim to none.

 

Leafs have always been content to do enough to make the playoffs, but never to enter the playoffs as the favourite. That's why they never win.  The Habs are a perfect example of this level of "playoff coasting". In 25+ years of making the playoffs since 1993, how many Cups has Montreal won?  Zero. 

 

Being a playoff team in the NHL only means you're an above .500 team. It doesn't mean you're icing a great team by any means. The Leafs have a good but not great team with the potential to be great with the right moves at the trade deadline.  :)

 

 

 

 

By right moves, do you mean somehow acquiring Karlsson and Doughty? Cause that's what it would take to be great IMO.  

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I remember a different past than you Words, Ron Francis, Brian Leetch, Glen Wesley plus others were acquired by the Leafs at trade deadlines because management felt TO had the core to compete. 

 

At the same time TO's previous ownership was a frugal group, Ballard and the Pension group, but I don't think the current ownership should be saddled with the mindset reputation of previous regimes.

 

If I was Philly I'd make the Lindros trade even in hindsight, a Karlsson trade for Marner or Nylander might be worthwhile, only time can tell.

 

By the way I think it would cost more than just either Marner or Nylander.

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6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Well, they actually traded 2-1st round picks (who turned into Jocelyn Thibault and Nolan Baumgartner...whoop dee doo) along with Forsberg, Hextall, Duchesne, Ricci and Simon. Forsberg and maybe Ricci ended up core players. I don't think anyone knew Forsberg was going to be that good

 

Yeah but that's what I mean. You can't trade that many players for one guy. Forsberg turned out to be as good as Lindros by himself. Then you add in the other players you mentioned and the trade becomes a landslide win for the Avs. Ricci was a great defensive center and Simon was the game's ultimate enforcer during the fighting era of hockey. :hocky:

 

6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

By right moves, do you mean somehow acquiring Karlsson and Doughty? Cause that's what it would take to be great IMO.

 

Who could afford both?  

 

One player can make a huge difference to a team in a salary cap parity infested league. :)

 

 

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6 hours ago, hobie said:

I remember a different past than you Words, Ron Francis, Brian Leetch, Glen Wesley plus others were acquired by the Leafs at trade deadlines because management felt TO had the core to compete. 

 

Perhaps.  :bluehockey:

 

6 hours ago, hobie said:

a Karlsson trade for Marner or Nylander might be worthwhile, only time can tell.

 

It would be hard to part with any of the forwards. I'd rather give up one of our current defencemen and mix in a few draft picks. Ottawa could have Rielly or Gardiner but I wouldn't part with Marner or Nylander, especially if the team is going to trade JVR.  If JVR goes in a trade, no other forwards would go. No way.

 

:)

 

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I like Brown but I think Kapanen deserves to be elevated, his speed and talent are starting to come thru in spades lately. Brown's a decent player but on TO you should be playing in accordance with your ability to produce, offensively and defensively. Brown is a 2nd or 3rd line quality talent but I think Kappy is better.

 

I'd be very disappointed if TO gave up Kappy for Glendening.

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Atlantic division TOP 3 prior to the trade deadline:

 

.....................:lightning:

....................:bruins:

................:mapleleafs:

 

Atlantic division TOP 3 AFTER the trade deadline:

 

...................................:lightning:

.................................:bruins:

................:mapleleafs:

 

:Isaidnow:

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I agree with your assessment Words and I'm glad TO didn't go whole hog in to win now.

 

TB's trade is interesting, they got two very good players and are definitely stronger now but then Miller's contract expires after this year and McDonagh's after next year. Both are expecting significant increases for their next contracts.

 

I generally don't think most TDL trades mean a whole lot for teams and I think that Boston might have become weaker because of what they did. Most TDL trades are depth moves so what TB did, acquiring impact players, is a sound reason to mortgage their future. 

 

I sure hope TO picks up a Babs approved 4th line center this summer so TO doesn't need to give up another 2nd for one next year. I'd have loved to have kept Boyle and Plekanec probably has good 4th line years left in him so if the money is right, sign him hopefully.  

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