Giroux

[OccamsRazor]

And in all honesty all those accolades are nice don't get me wrong.

 

But there is only one i truly care about.

 

The Stanley Cup.

 

I know the Flyers have won 2 eons ago.....but i wasn't a fan then so it don't count for me. I want one i can witness.

 

I can check my bucket list of the Eagles winning one.

 

I want to do the same for my Flyers.

[JR Ewing]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

And in all honesty all those accolades are nice don't get me wrong.

 

But there is only one i truly care about.

 

The Stanley Cup.

 

I know the Flyers have won 2 eons ago.....but i wasn't a fan then so it don't count for me. I want one i can witness.

 

I can check my bucket list of the Eagles winning one.

 

I want to do the same for my Flyers.

 

The Cup is the big thing; no doubt about it.

 

-My team's guy is pretty much seen as the best player in the world now. Great.

-He's now in a group of only two players ever to win this many scoring titles by this age. Awesome.

-He was so dominant at even-strength, of players to win an Art Ross, nobody has ever done it with so little feasting on the PP: only 18% of his points came with a man advantage. Wayne didn't even get below 20%... Lovely.

 

That's all great, but the Oilers didn't make the playoffs, and this might be the most disappointing season I've been through in all of these years. It's been honestly brutal.

 

 

I would have rather watched him finish 2nd in scoring and get to watch them play in April.

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

That's all great, but the Oilers didn't make the playoffs, and this might be the most disappointing season I've been through in all of these years.

 

 

I have to feel for you because after last season i mean damn after being 2 goals away from the Western conference finals after pushing the Ducks to game 7 i thought you guys would be taking the next step.

 

And it didn't happen.

 

So what truly was the cause of this since i didn't have the chance this year to follow as closely as i did last year.

 

I think you guys could use another defenseman or two. And some better depth at forward.

 

Do you feel Talbot is the man to lead you guys?

 

 

[JR Ewing]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I have to feel for you because after last season i mean damn after being 2 goals away from the Western conference finals after pushing the Ducks to game 7 i thought you guys would be taking the next step.

 

And it didn't happen.

 

So what truly was the cause of this since i didn't have the chance this year to follow as closely as i did last year.

 

I think you guys could use another defenseman or two. And some better depth at forward.

 

Do you feel Talbot is the man to lead you guys?

 

 

 

Issues:

-The defense is very poor at moving the puck out of their own end, and they lack any actual NHL defensemen who can make the first pass with regularity. They tend to play VERY slow in their own end, pass back and forth, rim around the boards, etc, which leads to turnovers, which leads to needless GA.

 

-The Oilers need depth on the wing, especially speed. They seem to feel that Aberg and Rattie are those guys. I'm not remotely convinced that 24-year olds who haven't been able to establish themselves as scorers are the way to go. I think it's a bad bet.

 

-The PK was one of the absolutely worst of the modern era; a truly bizarre thing. For most of the season, the used an L-shaped defense, with the two defensemen in the traditional spots, and then each forward lining up in front of the the d-man's side on the side of the rink the puck was on. It created MASSIVE cross-ice one-timer opportunities which were repeatedly buried. The Oilers coaches steadfastly stayed with this tactic until the season was lost, at which point they switched to a very traditional PK, and things immediately improved, where they went from a distant 31st to 25th in the short time. That's how bad that configuration was.

 

-In a similar vein, the PP was far worse than it should have been, especially with being able to trot out McDavid, Draisaitl and Nugent-Hopkins. Bizarre choices were, gain, the order of the day. Until he was traded, Mark Letestu was given more PP time than Nugent-Hopkins, despite a world of difference in offensive talent between them. In a game against Anaheim, Kevin Bieksa was asked about how they were shutting down the Oilers PP so well. I cringed, because he damned near laughed at the club, openly, on TV. "Well, I haven't seen The Spread since about 2007. Didn't know anybody was still using that."

 

-I hate bitching about refs, and a search here would reveal that. It can't be ignored, though, that the Oilers received a historically low amount of PP opportunities.

 

Somebody will always be first and somebody will always be last, but not by THAT much. This was the lowest number of PP opportunities ever seen per 82 games. I'm not being a homer when I say that Connor McDavid drew only a fraction of the calls which could have been made, and I get the strategy: if teams obstruct him constantly the refs pretty much have to let a certain amount of it go or else the game would grind to a halt with constant stoppage.

 

-Talbot had a very miserable start, but carried a .920 SV% in the second half of the season. He's by no means an all-star, but this year when he was bad is the outlier so far in his career, so I think that betting on a rebound isn't horrible.

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Issues:

-The defense is very poor at moving the puck out of their own end, and they lack any actual NHL defensemen who can make the first pass with regularity. They tend to play VERY slow in their own end, pass back and forth, rim around the boards, etc, which leads to turnovers, which leads to needless GA.

 

-The Oilers need depth on the wing, especially speed. They seem to feel that Aberg and Rattie are those guys. I'm not remotely convinced that 24-year olds who haven't been able to establish themselves as scorers are the way to go. I think it's a bad bet.

 

-The PK was one of the absolutely worst of the modern era; a truly bizarre thing. For most of the season, the used an L-shaped defense, with the two defensemen in the traditional spots, and then each forward lining up in front of the the d-man's side on the side of the rink the puck was on. It created MASSIVE cross-ice one-timer opportunities which were repeatedly buried. The Oilers coaches steadfastly stayed with this tactic until the season was lost, at which point they switched to a very traditional PK, and things immediately improved, where they went from a distant 31st to 25th in the short time. That's how bad that configuration was.

 

-In a similar vein, the PP was far worse than it should have been, especially with being able to trot out McDavid, Draisaitl and Nugent-Hopkins. Bizarre choices were, gain, the order of the day. Until he was traded, Mark Letestu was given more PP time than Nugent-Hopkins, despite a world of difference in offensive talent between them. In a game against Anaheim, Kevin Bieksa was asked about how they were shutting down the Oilers PP so well. I cringed, because he damned near laughed at the club, openly, on TV. "Well, I haven't seen The Spread since about 2007. Didn't know anybody was still using that."

 

-I hate bitching about refs, and a search here would reveal that. It can't be ignored, though, that the Oilers received a historically low amount of PP opportunities.

 

Somebody will always be first and somebody will always be last, but not by THAT much. This was the lowest number of PP opportunities ever seen per 82 games. I'm not being a homer when I say that Connor McDavid drew only a fraction of the calls which could have been made, and I get the strategy: if teams obstruct him constantly the refs pretty much have to let a certain amount of it go or else the game would grind to a halt with constant stoppage.

 

-Talbot had a very miserable start, but carried a .920 SV% in the second half of the season. He's by no means an all-star, but this year when he was bad is the outlier so far in his career, so I think that betting on a rebound isn't horrible.

 

So is it time for a new coach sounds like he isn't doing anything about some of these problems...in fact he sounds like the the source.

[JR Ewing]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So is it time for a new coach sounds like he isn't doing anything about some of these problems...in fact he sounds like the the source.

 

As ever, these men have forgotten more about how to coach a hockey team than I will ever know, but I do think there were issues regarding coaching. Late in the season, the Oilers pulled Talbot for an extra attacker, and McLellan used Milan Lucic as that guy, even though he had only scored 1 goal in his last 41 games. Even at that, he's had a strange insistence on giving Lucic a lot of PP minutes even though he's never been a big producer on the PP during his career at any point. He was always very strong at ES, but not as much on the PP; his game doesn't really translate to that situation. I was ready to turn a table over.

 

Meanwhile, Jesse Puljujarvi, a kid with a huge right-handed shot, playing for a team with a PP we always hear desperately needs a big right-handed shot, languishes on the bench, playing only 48 mins on the PP this year.

 

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/video/puljujarvis-one-time-blast/t-277437406/c-54901303

 

Ryan Strome never produced on the PP in New York, but received the 5th most minutes in Edmonton, but again, coach McLellan handed more minutes to Mark Letestu than Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. I will never get over that. Guys with established mediocre or poor track records on the PP are given premier minutes, and whilst other players with superior offensive ability took a 2-minute breather. A team should be using its best players in high leverage situations.

 

People want to know why the PP suffered in Edmonton?  In my honest opinion, it's down tremendously to coaching.

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

 

 

 

This is also where the Giroux for Hart thing becomes murky unfortunately. He obviously has a solid case to make, but as you say he's chronically overlooked. Also, the others in the running also have legit cases for it. Hall in particular is very much on an island in NJ this year. He is the only reason they're not scraping the floor. His 93 pts dwarf the second place scorer on NJ who is Hischier at 51. Take Hall off that team, and they become a footnote.

 

How does that compare to Giroux? Well, it could be looked at in two ways really:

 

1) Perhaps the far greater success found by Couts, TK, Voracek, Ghost, and Patrick this year is simply because Giroux is so good he can make all those guys into elite-level players.

2) Perhaps Giroux's totals are in part fed by those other guys being very good players anyway.

 

Looking at both rosters, it's pretty obvious Giroux has a much much stronger supporting cast. No doubt part of their success is because of him, but it's also fair to say that he has benefited from them as well, which is something Hall did not have to draw from.

 

All that being said, I really hope Giroux takes it of course, and I do feel he has a very legit shot. I'm not sure the powers-that-be will consider him as highly as others unfortunately, because he remains chronically overlooked a lot of the time.

 

So if Hall puts up points in bunches and doesn't actually elevate the play of others, does that make him as valuable as someone like Giroux who does? Couturier had a career year playing alongside Giroux. Konecny had 4 goals (13 points) in 39 games away from Giroux, and had 20 goals (34 points) in 39 games with Giroux. And in the last 3 games of the year without G, he's done squat. That scoring pace puts him in elite territory. 

 

Giroux had 102 points, QBs the PP unit, kills penalties, 3rd best faceoff man in the league (and 2nd most faceoffs taken despite being a 'winger'), he's +28 with a Corsi of 53.1% despite starting only 45% in the offensive zone.

 

Hall had 93 points, not sure if he kills penalties, doesn't take faceoffs, +14 with a Corsi of 51.7% considering he starts 57.3% of the time in the offensive zone. 

 

There's definitely an argument to made for Hall who had to be the guy who dragged his team kicking and screaming. 

 

But Giroux just does so much more for the team both as an individual (faceoffs, PK, PP QB) and as a teammate elevating the play of others. 

 

To me, that makes him much more 'valuable'. 

 

I am definitely biased though

[JR Ewing]

@elmatus That was pretty much my stance on it as well. I think there's a great argument for Giroux winning the Hart this year. His problem is that Taylor Hall can make a lot of the same claims, but with the added bonus of playing with inferior players, and Nathan McKinnon kicks in with a similar claim as well.

 

If any one of those three go on to win, I don't think the others have been robbed.

[JR Ewing]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

So if Hall puts up points in bunches and doesn't actually elevate the play of others, does that make him as valuable as someone like Giroux who does? Couturier had a career year playing alongside Giroux. Konecny had 4 goals (13 points) in 39 games away from Giroux, and had 20 goals (34 points) in 39 games with Giroux. And in the last 3 games of the year without G, he's done squat. That scoring pace puts him in elite territory. 

 

Giroux had 102 points, QBs the PP unit, kills penalties, 3rd best faceoff man in the league (and 2nd most faceoffs taken despite being a 'winger'), he's +28 with a Corsi of 53.1% despite starting only 45% in the offensive zone.

 

Hall had 93 points, not sure if he kills penalties, doesn't take faceoffs, +14 with a Corsi of 51.7% considering he starts 57.3% of the time in the offensive zone. 

 

There's definitely an argument to made for Hall who had to be the guy who dragged his team kicking and screaming. 

 

But Giroux just does so much more for the team both as an individual (faceoffs, PK, PP QB) and as a teammate elevating the play of others. 

 

To me, that makes him much more 'valuable'. 

 

I am definitely biased though

 

You could be dead-on with a lot of that. Unfortunately, this is the PHWA; the same group that voted Alexander Ovechkin to the post-season All-Star team in two separate positions in one year. Sometimes, they don't know if they should scratch their watch or wind their ass.

 

[elmatus]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

But Giroux just does so much more for the team both as an individual (faceoffs, PK, PP QB) and as a teammate elevating the play of others. 

 

To me, that makes him much more 'valuable'. 

 

I am definitely biased though

 

I’m with you brother. #GetHexyOnThePhone

[OccamsRazor]

39 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

So if Hall puts up points in bunches and doesn't actually elevate the play of others, does that make him as valuable as someone like Giroux who does? Couturier had a career year playing alongside Giroux. Konecny had 4 goals (13 points) in 39 games away from Giroux, and had 20 goals (34 points) in 39 games with Giroux. And in the last 3 games of the year without G, he's done squat. That scoring pace puts him in elite territory. 

 

Giroux had 102 points, QBs the PP unit, kills penalties, 3rd best faceoff man in the league (and 2nd most faceoffs taken despite being a 'winger'), he's +28 with a Corsi of 53.1% despite starting only 45% in the offensive zone.

 

Hall had 93 points, not sure if he kills penalties, doesn't take faceoffs, +14 with a Corsi of 51.7% considering he starts 57.3% of the time in the offensive zone. 

 

There's definitely an argument to made for Hall who had to be the guy who dragged his team kicking and screaming. 

 

But Giroux just does so much more for the team both as an individual (faceoffs, PK, PP QB) and as a teammate elevating the play of others. 

 

To me, that makes him much more 'valuable'. 

 

I am definitely biased though

 

Well said couldn't agree more and I'm trying my best not to be biased.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, brelic said:

Giroux had 102 points, QBs the PP unit, kills penalties, 3rd best faceoff man in the league (and 2nd most faceoffs taken despite being a 'winger'), he's +28 with a Corsi of 53.1% despite starting only 45% in the offensive zone

 

 

With:

 

Without:

 

 

With:

 

 

Without:

 

 

 

MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP

[King Knut]

6 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

The Cup is the big thing; no doubt about it.

 

-My team's guy is pretty much seen as the best player in the world now. Great.

-He's now in a group of only two players ever to win this many scoring titles by this age. Awesome.

-He was so dominant at even-strength, of players to win an Art Ross, nobody has ever done it with so little feasting on the PP: only 18% of his points came with a man advantage. Wayne didn't even get below 20%... Lovely.

 

That's all great, but the Oilers didn't make the playoffs, and this might be the most disappointing season I've been through in all of these years. It's been honestly brutal.

 

 

I would have rather watched him finish 2nd in scoring and get to watch them play in April.

 

 

I really feel bad for the Oilers.  Not so bad because they owned us in the Finals in the 80's... but still... they've been managed very very poorly and they're not really doing a great job helping out the best player in the world... which I believe McDavid is.  But it was hard to make Mario the MVP when the Penguins sucked and it's hard to make McDavid MVP when the Oilers somehow got worse than last year. 

 

Here's to better days... 

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

With:

 

Without:

 

 

With:

 

 

Without:

 

 

 

MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP MVP

 

Honestly, McDavid is the best player in the league, but if you remove him from the equation because the Oilers somehow got worse this year, then I don't think you can give the Hart to anyone besides Giroux and be honest with yourself.  

 

 

 

[AJgoal]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I really feel bad for the Oilers. 

 

 

It's hard to feel bad for a team that hired Peter Chiarelli.

[King Knut]

Just now, AJgoal said:

 

It's hard to feel bad for a team that hired Peter Chiarelli.

 

Well their poor fans didn't hire him did they?

 

Still whatever.  Esa Tikanen and Glenn Anderson were A holes.  

[JR Ewing]

I have to admit that I don't agree with the notion of eliminating a player from contention for an award based on what happens when he's not on the ice, and think it's in no small way a vestigial artifact from a time when 3/4 of the teams in the league made the playoffs. I think that Giroux would be a fine Hart winner this year, but if it were to go to one of those others at the top, it's not as if some sort of grand robbery would have occurred and Giroux's legacy has been stolen from him.

 

[Pucked in the head]

I want to see that Giroux show up in the playoffs!!!!