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yave1964

Sedin boys call it a career

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  Daniel and Henrik Sedin announced that they are retiring at seasons end. Image result for sedin twins They came to Vancouver as the Brian Burke legacy, stuck around forever and are retiring together. Daniel, the winger played over 1300 games scored 391 goals and over 1000 points and Henrik the center played over 1300 games with 240 goals and over 1000 points.

 

  The question must be begged, are they hall of famers? In my mind it is a no brainer hands down yes unquestionably so, fine near elite players for a long time the big one missing from their resume is a ring of course which absolutely counts against them but they produced at a high level for a long time and both were class acts. If not first ballot almost certainly going in shortly thereafter. A bit soft for my taste, but after a few years that is the kind of thingthat gets forgotten, stat lines are there forever in black and white and their numbers are simply hall of fame caliber.

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Correct me if I am wrong....could they possibly become the first brother duo to make it into the NHL Hall of Fame?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Correct me if I am wrong....could they possibly become the first brother duo to make it into the NHL Hall of Fame?

Nah there are a few I think

 

The Bentley bros for certain. And the Richard brothers

Edited by J0e Th0rnton
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1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

Correct me if I am wrong....could they possibly become the first brother duo to make it into the NHL Hall of Fame?

 

Only if they hop into a time machine and play before Bill and Bun Cook, back in the late 1920s.

 

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3 hours ago, yave1964 said:

  Daniel and Henrik Sedin announced that they are retiring at seasons end. Image result for sedin twins They came to Vancouver as the Brian Burke legacy, stuck around forever and are retiring together. Daniel, the winger played over 1300 games scored 391 goals and over 1000 points and Henrik the center played over 1300 games with 240 goals and over 1000 points.

 

  The question must be begged, are they hall of famers? In my mind it is a no brainer hands down yes unquestionably so, fine near elite players for a long time the big one missing from their resume is a ring of course which absolutely counts against them but they produced at a high level for a long time and both were class acts. If not first ballot almost certainly going in shortly thereafter. A bit soft for my taste, but after a few years that is the kind of thingthat gets forgotten, stat lines are there forever in black and white and their numbers are simply hall of fame caliber.

 

I would think they deserve to be there. I don't think they should be first ballot guys, and I think there are guys that had better careers during their era (Joe Thornton is a better playmaker, Alex Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, and Sindey Crosby, etc.), but the Sedins were a great pair of hockey players. You can't hold it against them that they didn't play on great teams and never won a Cup. I would be shocked if they never ended up in the Hall.

 

They will be missed, and the Canucks rebuild takes a hit next season. They are undoubtly a weaker team without the Sedins.

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2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

Correct me if I am wrong....could they possibly become the first brother duo to make it into the NHL Hall of Fame?

 

Identical twins, of which they are the 4th pair in the NHL, but I believe they would be the first pair to the HHOF.

 

 It isn't just about the numbers but the uniqueness and greatness in their careers together.  They were drafted by Burke 2 and 3 in 1999 and played nearly 2 decades for the Canucks.  While they were stars in the NHL; they are also legends in Sweden, winning Olympic and World Championship gold for their home nation.  

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Posted (edited)

Let's do the hockey version of the Keltner Test: the Hall of Fame Quiz.

 

1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?
Daniel - no

Henrik - no

 

2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?
They each had a peak year where they were as good as anybody in hockey, but I don't think it would be fair to say that they were commonly thought of as the best LW and C during their careers.

Daniel - no

Henrik

 

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
Daniel - Yes. He had top 10 finishes in Goals (2011),  Assists (2011, 2015), and Points (2011, 2015)

Henrik - Yes. Had top 10 finishes in Assists (2007 to 2013 as well as 2015), and Points (2010 thru 2012 as well was 2015).

 

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
Daniel - No [1]

Henrik - Yes, he led the league in Assists (2010 thru 2012) and led the league in Points in 2010. [2]

 

5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

Both brothers were key players for the Canucks Finals appearance against the Bruins in 2011.

Daniel [2]

Henrik [3]

 

6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?
No

Daniel [2]

Henrik [3]

 

7. Was he ever a team Captain?
Daniel - No. [2]

Henrik- Yes, he was Captain from 2011 until his career ended in 2018. [4]

 

8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?
Neither did this.

Daniel [2]

Henrik [4]

 

9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?
Neither of the twins were feared, but both played typically Swedish hockey, with an awareness of marking opponents and mind the fact that there are two nets on the ice. Both received Selke votes over the course of their careers. I think that's a fair 'yes'.

Daniel [3]

Henrik [5]

 

10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

Absolutely not.

Daniel [3]

Henrik [5]

 

11. Did he play a lot/well after he passed his prime?

At the age of 37, the Sedins continue to be durable and are even providing top 6 offense. The number of shifts where they dominate is much less, but they played well even when old.

Daniel [4]

Henrik [6]

 

12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?
Daniel - 1st All-Star in 2011, and 2nd team in 2010. [5]

Henrik - 1st All-Star in 2010 and 2011. [7]

 

13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

Daniel - of the most statistically similar players who qualify for HHOF induction, all are members. [6]

Henrik - of the most statistically similar players who qualify for HHOF induction, all but one (Peter Bondra) are in the Hall. [8]

 

14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

Daniel - won the Lindsay in 2011 [7]

Henrik - won the Hart in 2010 [9]

 

15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy? (pre-1965: see resources)
Neither won a Conn Smythe.

Daniel [7]

Henrik [9]

 

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)
I don't see how either would qualify for a point under this section.

Daniel [7]

Henrik [9]

 

17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?
This is the Gretzky/Ruth/Ali point, and one which is exceptionally difficult to score. I don't see it.

Daniel [7]

Henrik [9]

 

18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

Think of Jacques Plante changing how goaltenders play the puck, or how Wayne Gretzky re-wrote our concept of controlling the puck behind the net... I think the twins should qualify for a point due to how they changed the PP (and even some ES situations) league-wide with "The Sedin Tip".

Daniel [8]

Henrik [10]

------------------

 

My own cut-offs run something like:

13+ = the best of the best

11-12 = among the very greatest who have ever put on skates

9-10 = great player

5-8 = clear Hall of Famer

4 = borderline

3 = weak argument

1-2 = completely unqualified

 

As far as I see it, the Sedin brothers are clear Hall of Famers. Looking back, the only thing they weren't able to do was win a Stanley Cup, and they came so damned close it's not even funny.

Edited by JR Ewing
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@JR Ewing  Interesting method. I think you break it down pretty well. You basically broke down their whole careers, and proved to me that they belong in the HOF.

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On 04/04/2018 at 10:43 AM, JR Ewing said:

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)
I don't see how either would qualify for a point under this section.

Daniel [7]

Henrik [9]

 

Missing playing time due to NHL lockouts.

 

You can probably add 100 points to each of them. 

 

Playing through the "dead puck era" of the NHL. That's worth about 250 points each. 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Missing playing time due to NHL lockouts.

 

You can probably add 100 points to each of them. 

 

Playing through the "dead puck era" of the NHL. That's worth about 250 points each. 

 

 

Remember, the point of the test is to ask if the player in question is HOF calibre, not to peg down his exact value. Question 16 is better asked of players like Igor Larionov, for example, who missed about a decade out of his NHL career due to global politics. There is a reasonable argument to make that he was better than his statistics suggest. The Sedins? We're nibbling at the margins.

 

All-time NHL Goals Per Game: 3.03

GPG during the Sedins careers: 2.78

 

It's not so much that the twins were punished by the era in which they played, which approached historical average, but that players during the 80s and early 90s played in an era of exaggerated offense.

 

Even then, keep in mind that the test isn't using non-era adjusted career G, A, Pts as part of its package, something I purposely did so that we don't run into these issues when comparing players who may have played in different periods of time. The only place we could have run into trouble was the question which asks if players with similar stats are in the HHOF. For years, I had my own sheets normalized player stats and compared how statistically players were, but this had shortcomings.

 

-I was the only person with access to these numbers, which greatly limited the ability of other people to answer the question in a productive or easy way.

-It was one hell of a lot of damned work.

 

So, now I direct people to view the player's page at hockey-reference.com, because all of that is taken care of there. It simply removes the vast majority of the hassle which comes with comparing players across era.

 

What I'm spending a long time saying is that I don't think a strong argument can be made that the Sedins were significantly better than their stats suggest, as their numbers already indicate that they were elite players and point us in the direction of viewing them as being Hall of Fame calibre.

 

Edited by JR Ewing
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On 4/4/2018 at 4:36 PM, belowthegoalline said:

@JR Ewing  Interesting method. I think you break it down pretty well. You basically broke down their whole careers, and proved to me that they belong in the HOF.

 

I would LOVE to take credit for this idea, but it was really just another trip to Bill James' backyard to take a dip in his pool. The real trick with such an approach is to ask as many questions which can be answered objectively, and to get away with asking as few as we can which require subjective answers.

 

So, the great thing is that it's by no means limited to using with hockey or baseball, and could be applied to damned near anything: music or politicians or Good Morning America hosts, so long as you ask the right questions. Hell, you could draw up a list for a pornstar hall of fame; I don't know. The sky's the limit.

 

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This is going to be an end to an era, a great era.

I loved watching the Sedins play. I really wish they wouldn't retire so soon but I guess i'm gonna have to deal with it.

I'm not even a Canucks fan and the Sedins are my favorite duo in the present NHL.

 

RIP the Sedin era ;-;

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On 05/04/2018 at 9:03 PM, JR Ewing said:

Remember, the point of the test is to ask if the player in question is HOF calibre, not to peg down his exact value. Question 16 is better asked of players like Igor Larionov, for example, who missed about a decade out of his NHL career due to global politics. There is a reasonable argument to make that he was better than his statistics suggest. The Sedins? We're nibbling at the margins.

 

All-time NHL Goals Per Game: 3.03

GPG during the Sedins careers: 2.78

 

Good point.  :)

 

 

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If they do/did retire I hope the Canucks wouldnt slip past Arizona as the worst team! (I hope Arizona gets their act together!)

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13 minutes ago, notfondajane said:

If they do/did retire I hope the Canucks wouldnt slip past Arizona as the worst team! (I hope Arizona gets their act together!)

 

-The Sedins have definitely retired.

-If the Canucks do slip down to being the worst team, my own sense of schadenfreude would welcome crickets from a fanbase that doesn't show up for anything other than a winner.

 

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I wonder if the Sedin's,  I mean either of them could be ready to play for a team if they wanted one to come back for a short stint?  Or are they finished for good?  Look at how long Gordie Howe played.  It was unreal.  Into his 50s.  In the old World League that was arguably as good or better than the AHL?  Now the AHL is watered down due to all the teams.  Of course I doubt the Sedins would ever go to that level.  Its a shame they did not win that game 7.  I wanted them to win

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@HockeyJunkie

 

I suppose they could come back in the current version of the NHL which seems to stand for No Hitting League, but they got out at the right time, both of them had serious decline in skills and saw the writing on the way and very classy, they left at the right time for their skill set.

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8 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

@HockeyJunkie

 

I suppose they could come back in the current version of the NHL which seems to stand for No Hitting League, but they got out at the right time, both of them had serious decline in skills and saw the writing on the way and very classy, they left at the right time for their skill set.

They should have won with Kessler that year they were the best

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40 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

@HockeyJunkie

 

I suppose they could come back in the current version of the NHL which seems to stand for No Hitting League, but they got out at the right time, both of them had serious decline in skills and saw the writing on the way and very classy, they left at the right time for their skill set.

 

Always leave 'em wanting a bit more.

 

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  • Most Liked Posts in This Topic

    • 3
      Post
      Only if they hop into a time machine and play before Bill and Bun Cook, back in the late 1920s.  
    • 3
      Post
      Let's do the hockey version of the Keltner Test: the Hall of Fame Quiz.   1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?
      Daniel - no Henrik - no   2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?
      They each had a peak year where they were as good as anybody in hockey, but I don't think it would be fair to say that they were commonly thought of as the best LW and C during their careers. Daniel - no Henrik   3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
      Daniel - Yes. He had top 10 finishes in Goals (2011),  Assists (2011, 2015), and Points (2011, 2015) Henrik - Yes. Had top 10 finishes in Assists (2007 to 2013 as well as 2015), and Points (2010 thru 2012 as well was 2015).   4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
      Daniel - No [1] Henrik - Yes, he led the league in Assists (2010 thru 2012) and led the league in Points in 2010. [2]   5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run? Both brothers were key players for the Canucks Finals appearance against the Bruins in 2011. Daniel [2] Henrik [3]   6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?
      No Daniel [2] Henrik [3]   7. Was he ever a team Captain?
      Daniel - No. [2] Henrik- Yes, he was Captain from 2011 until his career ended in 2018. [4]   8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?
      Neither did this. Daniel [2] Henrik [4]   9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?
      Neither of the twins were feared, but both played typically Swedish hockey, with an awareness of marking opponents and mind the fact that there are two nets on the ice. Both received Selke votes over the course of their careers. I think that's a fair 'yes'. Daniel [3] Henrik [5]   10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here) Absolutely not. Daniel [3] Henrik [5]   11. Did he play a lot/well after he passed his prime? At the age of 37, the Sedins continue to be durable and are even providing top 6 offense. The number of shifts where they dominate is much less, but they played well even when old. Daniel [4] Henrik [6]   12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?
      Daniel - 1st All-Star in 2011, and 2nd team in 2010. [5] Henrik - 1st All-Star in 2010 and 2011. [7]   13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF? Daniel - of the most statistically similar players who qualify for HHOF induction, all are members. [6] Henrik - of the most statistically similar players who qualify for HHOF induction, all but one (Peter Bondra) are in the Hall. [8]   14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections) Daniel - won the Lindsay in 2011 [7] Henrik - won the Hart in 2010 [9]   15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy? (pre-1965: see resources)
      Neither won a Conn Smythe. Daniel [7] Henrik [9]   16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)
      I don't see how either would qualify for a point under this section. Daniel [7] Henrik [9]   17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?
      This is the Gretzky/Ruth/Ali point, and one which is exceptionally difficult to score. I don't see it. Daniel [7] Henrik [9]   18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played? Think of Jacques Plante changing how goaltenders play the puck, or how Wayne Gretzky re-wrote our concept of controlling the puck behind the net... I think the twins should qualify for a point due to how they changed the PP (and even some ES situations) league-wide with "The Sedin Tip". Daniel [8] Henrik [10] ------------------   My own cut-offs run something like: 13+ = the best of the best 11-12 = among the very greatest who have ever put on skates 9-10 = great player 5-8 = clear Hall of Famer 4 = borderline 3 = weak argument 1-2 = completely unqualified   As far as I see it, the Sedin brothers are clear Hall of Famers. Looking back, the only thing they weren't able to do was win a Stanley Cup, and they came so damned close it's not even funny.
    • 2
      Post
      Identical twins, of which they are the 4th pair in the NHL, but I believe they would be the first pair to the HHOF.    It isn't just about the numbers but the uniqueness and greatness in their careers together.  They were drafted by Burke 2 and 3 in 1999 and played nearly 2 decades for the Canucks.  While they were stars in the NHL; they are also legends in Sweden, winning Olympic and World Championship gold for their home nation.  
    • 2
      Post
      @JR Ewing  Interesting method. I think you break it down pretty well. You basically broke down their whole careers, and proved to me that they belong in the HOF.
    • 1
      Post
      Nah there are a few I think   The Bentley bros for certain. And the Richard brothers
    • 1
      Post
      Remember, the point of the test is to ask if the player in question is HOF calibre, not to peg down his exact value. Question 16 is better asked of players like Igor Larionov, for example, who missed about a decade out of his NHL career due to global politics. There is a reasonable argument to make that he was better than his statistics suggest. The Sedins? We're nibbling at the margins.   All-time NHL Goals Per Game: 3.03 GPG during the Sedins careers: 2.78   It's not so much that the twins were punished by the era in which they played, which approached historical average, but that players during the 80s and early 90s played in an era of exaggerated offense.   Even then, keep in mind that the test isn't using non-era adjusted career G, A, Pts as part of its package, something I purposely did so that we don't run into these issues when comparing players who may have played in different periods of time. The only place we could have run into trouble was the question which asks if players with similar stats are in the HHOF. For years, I had my own sheets normalized player stats and compared how statistically players were, but this had shortcomings.   -I was the only person with access to these numbers, which greatly limited the ability of other people to answer the question in a productive or easy way. -It was one hell of a lot of damned work.   So, now I direct people to view the player's page at hockey-reference.com, because all of that is taken care of there. It simply removes the vast majority of the hassle which comes with comparing players across era.   What I'm spending a long time saying is that I don't think a strong argument can be made that the Sedins were significantly better than their stats suggest, as their numbers already indicate that they were elite players and point us in the direction of viewing them as being Hall of Fame calibre.  

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